Who is grafted into whom?

[Guest shiloh357]

The Church grafted into Israel?

Israel grafted into the Church?

Not sure how my response simply disappeared from this thread.  Probably part of the database issues.

 

Anyhow, as mentioned before the Church (Jew & Gentile in one Body) was a mystery hidden from Israel and only revealed after Pentecost.  Believing Israel is the "good olive tree" and believing Gentiles are "the wild olive tree". 

 

The Church began with saved Jews on the day of Pentecost, therefore the Gentiles were grafted into the existing Church beginning with Cornelius and his household.  The primary lesson is that Gentiles should not be highminded, but the secondary lesson is that Jews should not be highminded also.  Everything pertaining to salvation is purely because of God's grace.

No the church did not begin on Pentecost

Heb: 2;12

Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

Heb shows that Jesus was united with his church; that he was one of them; and that he mingled with them as among brethren. 

 

Church DID begin at Pentecost.   Jesus in Matthew said, "upon this rock, I will build my Church.   If the Church was already present, then he would not have spoken of it as something future to Him and the disciples at that time. 

No one denies Jesus built his Church as this is part of the new covenant. What your falling to produce that it is impossible for the church to function with its Head literaly still alive

 

 let me ask, did not they have all of the essential things that go to make up a church before Pentecost? Let us see:

They had the Gospel (Mark 1:1).

They were baptized believers. The apostles had been disciples of John, having been baptized by    him (Acts 1:22). Of John's baptism, we are told that it was from heaven (John 1:33).

They had an organization. They had a treasurer, though he turned out to be a dishonest  one.

They had the same Head that the church of today has, Christ.

They had the ordinance of baptism.

They had the ordinance of the Lord's Supper.

They had the Great Commission.

They met together as a church for prayer preceding Pente­cost.

Moreover, they even had a business meeting and selected one to take Judas' place.

If thats not the church then pray tell what body is that?

The church began with the baptism of the Holy Spirit at the day of Pentecost.  That baptism is subsequent to their reception of the Holy Spirit earlier in John.   In Acts 1, the baptism of the Holy Spirit was still future.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit marks the beginning of the church.

[Guest shiloh357]

JohnD

What is grafted into what?

 

The Church grafted into Israel?

 

Israel grafted into the Church?

 

Wouldn't that make the Gentiles the natural branches?

 

My view on this is this has nothing to do the church and Israel but that of Northern Israel and Southern Israel being grafted back into one Israel.

According to Jeremiah 11:16-17, this olive tree represented the House of Israel and the House of Judah. It was God who "planted" this olive tree and pronounced evil against it because this "olive tree" had done evil in provoking God to anger. As a result, according to Paul, some of the branches were broken off and became wild olives and that is is exactly what happened to Northern Israel.  

Romans 11:16-28 is all about the reunion of the House of Israel and the House of Judah

 

 

 

No, Paul is speaking to the Roman Gentile Christians and about their being grafted into Christ.  God doesn't graft people into people.  That is nonsense.  Paul is addressing Gentiles, not northern Israelites, in Romans 11.

So its nonsense God wishes to graft the two house of Israel into one? Yet scripture is full of this prophecy, then it must of been nonsense to send Christ to be crucified and to go out to the LOST SHEEP OF NORTHERN ISRAEL? 

NOT A PEOPLE will provoke JUDAH to jealousy 

Who is called NOT A PEOPLE? Northern Kingdom Hosea 1:9

How would they provake JUDAH to Jealousy? By becoming the sons of God

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they (JUDAH)  stumbled that they should fall? God
forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the 
GENTILE ( Northern Israel  - NOT MY PEOPLE - SONS OF THE LIVING GOD), for to PROVOKE them to JEALOUSY.

What's nonsense is your attempt to make Romans 11 equate with Ezekiel 25.   The Roman congregation was not part of Ephraim.  God will unite all 12 Israelite tribes into one nation again, but this has nothing to do with Romans 11.   You are violating the rules of context in order to promote your silly laughable doctrines.  This is a good example of the garbage that people like you who don't have the Holy Spirit try to teach.   You're a false teacher, a tare sown among wheat.  Fortunately, people like me won't be led astray by your nonsense.   And hopefully no one else who is reading your posts will led astray by you.

[AllTheGoodNamesAreTaken]

Shiloh

 

 

The holy spirit empowered the church, but since your right,  then you need to tell Jesus he was wrong for singing in his church,  further I think you need to tell every church denominations that the Lord's Supper is not a church ordinance and not to keep it till Christ comes again.

 

 

Further since your clearly right,  I think you need to tell Jesus he had no right to send the desciples out to start with the great commission until pentacost and the ordinance of baptism before pentacost.started and therefore it doesn't count.  

 

 

Further since I have a feeling you have great issues with Jesus about all this, you should further condemn Christ for forming an organisation with rules and having a treasury before he died. And that Christ has no right to be head of his church while he was alive.

 

 

Let me know what Christ says, thanks.

 

Cynicism and sarcasm seem somewhat alienated from our purpose as disciples. 

[AllTheGoodNamesAreTaken]

Shiloh

 

 

The holy spirit empowered the church, but since your right,  then you need to tell Jesus he was wrong for singing in his church,  further I think you need to tell every church denominations that the Lord's Supper is not a church ordinance and not to keep it till Christ comes again.

 

 

Further since your clearly right,  I think you need to tell Jesus he had no right to send the desciples out to start with the great commission until pentacost and the ordinance of baptism before pentacost.started and therefore it doesn't count.  

 

 

Further since I have a feeling you have great issues with Jesus about all this, you should further condemn Christ for forming an organisation with rules and having a treasury before he died. And that Christ has no right to be head of his church while he was alive.

 

 

Let me know what Christ says, thanks.

 

Cynicism and sarcasm seem somewhat alienated from our purpose as disciples. 

well so would the following but I don't see these types of attacks addressed

 

 This is a good example of the garbage that people like you who don't have the Holy Spirit try to teach.   You're a false teacher, a tare sown among wheat.  Fortunately, people like me won't be led astray by your nonsense.  

 

Answering folly with folly is not a wise course. 

[Ezra]

The baptism of the Holy Spirit marks the beginning of the church.

This is so fundamental that no Christian should have any question about it. Without the outpouring of the promised Holy Spirit (which would only be possible after the ascension of Christ) there would have been no Church (Jew and Gentile in one Body).  The Feast of Pentecost was a harvest feast which pre-figured the harvest of souls on the Day of Pentecost as revealed in Acts chapter 2.  It is in verse 47 that we read: "And the Lord added to THE CHURCH (Gk. ekklesia) daily such as should be saved".  It is also important to note that this happened on the first day of the week (the Lord's Day).

[AllTheGoodNamesAreTaken]

 

The baptism of the Holy Spirit marks the beginning of the church.

This is so fundamental that no Christian should have any question about it. Without the outpouring of the promised Holy Spirit (which would only be possible after the ascension of Christ) there would have been no Church (Jew and Gentile in one Body).  The Feast of Pentecost was a harvest feast which pre-figured the harvest of souls on the Day of Pentecost as revealed in Acts chapter 2.  It is in verse 47 that we read: "And the Lord added to THE CHURCH (Gk. ekklesia) daily such as should be saved".  It is also important to note that this happened on the first day of the week (the Lord's Day).

Thank you Ezra ! Yes, amen !

[AllTheGoodNamesAreTaken]

The price paid.

The prophecy fulfilled.

The covenant established and sealed. 

Amen. 

[AllTheGoodNamesAreTaken]

Shiloh

 

 

The holy spirit empowered the church, but since your right,  then you need to tell Jesus he was wrong for singing in his church,  further I think you need to tell every church denominations that the Lord's Supper is not a church ordinance and not to keep it till Christ comes again.

 

 

Further since your clearly right,  I think you need to tell Jesus he had no right to send the desciples out to start with the great commission until pentacost and the ordinance of baptism before pentacost.started and therefore it doesn't count.  

 

 

Further since I have a feeling you have great issues with Jesus about all this, you should further condemn Christ for forming an organisation with rules and having a treasury before he died. And that Christ has no right to be head of his church while he was alive.

 

 

Let me know what Christ says, thanks.

 

Cynicism and sarcasm seem somewhat alienated from our purpose as disciples. 

well so would the following but I don't see these types of attacks addressed

 

 This is a good example of the garbage that people like you who don't have the Holy Spirit try to teach.   You're a false teacher, a tare sown among wheat.  Fortunately, people like me won't be led astray by your nonsense.  

 

Answering folly with folly is not a wise course. 

well noted but perhaps it's best if you addressed the antagonist first next time

I don't know what is best. I only try to do as I feel led. I can certainly address who you believe to be the problem, but your solution ( which was as I previously stated ), is not one I subscribe to. They ( whom you call the antagonist ) have repeatedly mentioned that you do not believe in the deity of Christ Jesus. I have no personal knowledge of this being true or not, but if you could explain then perhaps I could better understand. If not, that's fine as well.

[AllTheGoodNamesAreTaken]

I'll leave you to it then. God bless you. 

I'll state publicly that Jesus is God.

[Ezra]

Even though scripture evidence has been presented of the church already established before Pentecost.

Even the apostles did not receive the gift of the Holy Spirit until after the resurrection of Christ (John 20:22,23) but they could not be filled with the Holy Spirit until the Day of Pentecost (for which they had to wait), and that is the day that the Church came into existence.

The Old Testament saints had to wait in Abraham's bosom until the resurrection in order to enter Heaven. Now that they all are in the New Jerusalem, all those who have been justified by grace through faith (OT and NT) will become the Lamb's Wife after the Rapture. But for now, Scripture distinguishes the OT saints (the spirits of just men made perfect) from the NT saints (the general assembly and Church of the firstborn)  (see Hebrews 12:22-24).

Coming back to who is grafted into whom, it is perfectly clear that the "good olive tree" represents believing Israel, whereas the "wild olive tree" represents believing Gentiles. The Church began with believing Jews, and after that believing Gentiles were added to it.  But when God and Christ see the Church as it exists, THERE IS NO DISTINCTION between Jew and Gentile, bond and free, male and female (Gal 3:26-29). The context of the "grafting" is the unbelief of Israel as a nation, it's spiritual blindness today, and its future after the Church has been completed.  The context of the "grafting" is also to prevent Gentile Christians from being high-minded and holding to Replacement Theology.  The Gospel was to "the Jew first", and God is not finished with Israel as a nation under the Abrahamic Covenant.