1John 3:9 What does it mean?

[bcbsr]

1John 3:

9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.

10  This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

 

What does verse 9 means? Just for starters, the fact that verse 10 indicates that verse 9 is something visible, even measureable to the point of distinguishing children of God from children of the devil eliminates interpretations like this is referring to something merely internal to those born of God. 

 

Nor is it referring to perfect behavior, as 1John 2:1;1:8,10; not to mention Gal 5:17 all indicate those born of God will sin from time to time.

 

What I find interesting about 1John is that in the Greek whenever John is referring to lifestyle he uses the present tense. And whenever John is referring to a snapshot event, or a behavior uncharacteristic of the person, he uses the aorist (which we don't have in English and so you lose something in the translation).

 

In this case John is saying that sinning is uncharacteristic of those born of God, not denying that it doesn't occur uncharactertically from time to time. Those born of God don't live a lifestyle of sin. And this is a distinguishing mark of those born of God. Thus when Paul says, "Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." 1Cor 6:9,10 it is not that salvation is contingent upon one's behavior, but rather that there simply doesn't exists any such person who lives a lifestyle of sin who has been born of God.

 

[Guest shiloh357]

Verse 9 means that true Christians don't make a habitual practice of sin.  They don't live in sin as a way of life.

[Bible2]

bcbsr said in post 1:

 

1Cor 6:9,10 it is not that salvation is contingent upon one's behavior, but rather that there simply doesn't exists any such person who lives a lifestyle of sin who has been born of God.

 

Hebrews 10:26-29 shows that truly saved people, people who have truly been sanctified by Jesus' sacrificial blood (Hebrews 10:29), which sanctification requires faith (Acts 26:18b, cf. Romans 3:25-26), can, after they get saved, wrongly employ their free will to commit sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26). By doing this, these saved people are unwittingly trampling on Jesus and his sacrificial blood, and doing despite to the Spirit of grace (Hebrews 10:29), turning the grace of God into lasciviousness (Jude 1:4), so that their ultimate fate will be worse than if they had never been saved at all (2 Peter 2:20-22). Even though Jesus' sacrificial blood is sufficient to forgive all sins (1 John 2:2), it actually forgives only the sins of believers which are past (Romans 3:25-26), as in sins which have been repented from and confessed to God (1 John 1:9,7). Jesus' sacrificial blood doesn't remit unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29). So a saved person can in the end lose his salvation if he wrongly employs his free will to commit unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46).

 

Some Christians think Hebrews 10:26-29 isn't for Christians. But the immediate context of Hebrews 10:26-29 is Hebrews 10:25, which is addressing "we" saved people. Hebrews 10:25-29 is the same idea as Hebrews 3:13: Saved people need to gather together and exhort each other so no saved person will fall into any unrepentant sin. For any unrepentant sin will ultimately result in the loss of salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46, Matthew 7:22-23, Galatians 5:19-21; 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13; 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20).

 

One way a saved person could come to desire to commit sin without repentance would be if he finds a particular sin to be very pleasurable, so pleasurable and so fulfilling (in the short term) that he continues in it over time until his heart becomes hardened by the deceitfulness of sin (Hebrews 3:13), to where his love for God grows cold because of the abundance of iniquity (Matthew 24:12), to where he quenches the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), to where he sears his conscience as with a hot iron (1 Timothy 4:2), to where he becomes so infatuated with his sin that he can no longer endure the sound doctrine of the Bible (such as the doctrine of Hebrews 10:26-29), but instead latches onto a mistaken, man-made teaching which contradicts the Bible (2 Timothy 4:3-4), such as the mistaken teaching which assures believers there is no way they can ever lose their salvation, even if they sin without repentance.

[His_disciple3]

Bible2 if I could just point out here. you have mentioned your belief in predestination, one of the ways that most would explain doctrine of grace, by Paul preaching salvation in scriptures , and calvinist would explain this by saying that Paul didn't know who the elect was, and he didn't know if all that were in the room where he was preaching was the elect, , but now to prove your point on this thread it is that Paul knew that all was saved in this room where he was preaching. and was only addressing the saved. the letter here is to the Hebrews, Paul was a Hebrew, He very well could have meant by "WE" meaning us Hebrews. this is where a lot of people miss scriptures, Because of the word brethren, and everyone will say well that had to be the Christians, But the Jews(Hebrews) also called one another brethren. is it a fearful thing for a Christian to fall in the hands of God, for I do believe Paul used we in the next text stating just that?

Heb 10:30-31

30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

KJV

addressing the thread Jesus said that all that come to Him He will in no wise cast out, Jesus said that I will never leave you, nor forsake you, the Word of God asks what power can separate us from the love of God, any interpretation of scripture that contradicts what Jesus has Clearly said is not of God, Jesus will never leave you nor forsake you if you are One of His, people will agree to this and falsely say 'But we can walk away from Him" If we can walk away from Him then there is a power greater than the Love of God and a power that can separate us from Him. which just can not be! now just as the seed sower some seed fell on different ground, and only the true faith or ground was the right one, some received the word but it wasn't true or good it didn't last. If we are truly saved (one of His) we can live any way we want to and still be saved, BUT HOWEVER, If we are truly one of His we will want to live the way that is pleasing to Him. but even if We slipped from time to time, the doctrine of chastisement kicks in, those that he loves He chastises, if you can sin and not feel the Chastisement from God then you are not one of His. when We Come to faith in the Lord, He Puts HIS seed in us, and His seed liveth and abideth FOREVER and His seed in me can not be corruptible!!!!.

1 Peter 1:22-23

22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

KJV

[InSeasonOut]

Well one thing is for sure...  fools sin by claiming to be sinless.... (1John1:8-10)

 

A possible interpreataion for the born again believer is the new man or seed does not sin, but the flesh lusts and sins  ... For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day 2Cor.4:16... The born again believers soul is redeemed and the spirit is quickend (made alive) but our body/flesh is still courruptible and really if ya read Romans 7... particually verse 14-25.......

That should clear things up...

[Bible2]

His_disciple3 said in post 4:

 

Jesus said that all that come to Him He will in no wise cast out . . .

 

That's right (John 6:37).

 

But John 6:37a applies only to initial salvation. For John 6:37b (like John 6:35b) apples only to those believers who continue to believe (John 15:6, Hebrews 3:6,12,14), do good works (John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), and repent from any sins they commit (Luke 13:3), to the end (Matthew 24:13, Hebrews 10:26-29). For Jesus will ultimately cast out some initially saved people because of such things as unrepentant sin (1 Corinthians 9:27), unrepentant laziness (John 15:2a,6), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8), at the judgment of the church by Jesus at his 2nd coming (Luke 12:45-46, Matthew 25:26,30, Mark 8:35-38).

 

His_disciple3 said in post 4:

 

. . . the Word of God asks what power can separate us from the love of God . . .

 

That's right (Romans 8:35-39).

 

But Romans 8:38-39 means that nothing outside of saved people's own free-willed actions can separate them from God's love. For Romans 8:38-39 isn't contradicting that saved people themselves can wrongly employ their free will to the ultimate loss of their salvation (e.g. Hebrews 10:26-29, Hebrews 6:4-8, Matthew 25:26,30).

 

Regarding the part of Romans 8:38-39 which says "neither death, nor life", it means that neither saved people's continued living in itself, nor their dying in itself, can separate them from God's love, in the sense of them losing their salvation just for continuing to live, or just for dying. For unless saved people wrongly employ their free will to commit suicide, whether they continue to live or die is outside of their control.

 

Also, Romans 8:28-39 applies only to "them who are the called according to God's purpose" (Romans 8:28), i.e. the elect (Romans 8:33), and only to those elect who "love God" (Romans 8:28), meaning those who continue to obey him (1 John 5:3). The elect, even after they get saved, can wrongly employ their free will to stop obeying God, which means to stop loving him (John 14:24, Matthew 24:12).

 

Saved people need to be careful to keep themselves in the love of God (Jude 1:21) and to continue in his goodness (Romans 11:22) by continuing in obedience to him (John 15:10, John 14:21,23), if they don't want God to ultimately cut them off (Romans 11:22, John 15:2a) and cast them away (1 Corinthians 9:27, John 15:6).

 

The way for believers to expect mercy from God (Jude 1:21b) is for them to repent from their sins and confess them to God (1 Jn. 1:9). Believers can't expect mercy from God if they commit apostasy (Jude 1:5, Hebrews 6:4-8), or unrepentant sin (Jude 1:7-18,23, Hebrews 10:26-29), turning the grace of God into lasciviousness (Jude 1:4), or if they become utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

 

His_disciple3 said in post 4:

 

If we are truly one of His we will want to live the way that is pleasing to Him. but even if We slipped from time to time, the doctrine of chastisement kicks in . . .

 

That's right.

 

The ability of believers (though not their choosing) to repent from and confess to God every sin they commit is assured. For if they do commit a sin, even if they are unaware of it, Jesus will send them warning and chastening to make sure they know they have sinned and need to repent (Revelation 3:19, Hebrews 12:6-7, cf. Jeremiah 31:18-19). And he will give them time to repent (Revelation 2:21a). It is only if they wrongly employ their free will to waste the time they are given, and ignore the warning and chastening, and refuse to repent (Revelation 2:21-23, cf. Deuteronomy 21:18-21) until death (1 John 5:16b) or Jesus' return (Luke 12:45-46), that they will ultimately lose their salvation due to unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Galatians 5:19-21).

 

If saved people become unsure whether or not they have ignored Jesus' warning, and refused to repent from a sin, they need to pray and ask him to reveal to them if there is any unrepentant sin in their heart (Psalms 139:23-24). And they need to be reading the Bible, every word of it (Matthew 4:4; 2 Timothy 3:16), over and over again. For it will expose to them any unrepentant sin which still exists within their heart (Hebrews 4:12; 2 Timothy 3:16), so they can repent from it and confess it to God, and be forgiven and perfect before God (2 Timothy 3:17; 1 John 1:9; 2 Corinthians 7:1).

 

His_disciple3 said in post 4:

 

1 Peter 1 . . .
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

 

Initial salvation, being born again (John 3:3,7; 1 Peter 1:23-25; 1 Peter 2:2), is both present salvation and a contract for ultimate salvation, just as the birth of an infant is both present life and a contract for life as an adult. Just as children can know they are actually alive, so initially saved people can know they are actually saved. And just as an infant can't "give back" his being born, so a born-again person can't "give back" his being born again, his being initially saved. But just as there is no assurance that children will reach adulthood, so there is no assurance that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation. For just as there are conditions placed on children, like not running into traffic and not drinking the Drano under the sink, if they are to reach adulthood, so there are conditions placed on the born-again, the initially saved, if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (e.g. Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 3:6,14; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

 

That is, the Bible doesn't teach once-saved-always-saved, but shows that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only "if" they continue in the faith to the end (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23). And there is no assurance they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to depart from the faith, to no longer believe, to commit apostasy (Luke 8:13; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 4:3-4; 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Hebrews 3:12, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-39, Matthew 24:9-13).

 

Also, even if they do continue in the faith, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also patiently continue to the end in obedience and good works (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Philippians 2:12b; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9; 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14; 1 John 2:17b), as in works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law). And there is no assurance they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

 

Also, even if they do continue in faith and good works of faith, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also continue to the end to repent from every sin they commit (Hebrews 10:26-29, 1 Corinthians 9:27, Matthew 7:22-23, Galatians 5:19-21). And there is no assurance they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to commit unrepentant sin, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Luke 12:45-46; 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13; 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20).

 

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus' death for our sins (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38). And there is no assurance they will choose to do that (cf. Acts 22:16a).

 

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they partake of the divine flesh and blood of communion (John 6:53, Matthew 26:26-28; 1 Corinthians 10:16; 1 Corinthians 11:27-30). And there is no assurance they will choose to do that (cf. John 6:60,66).

 

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they forgive everyone for every wrong (Matthew 6:14-15). And there is no assurance they will choose to do that (Matthew 18:21-35).

 

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they do all they can (Romans 12:18) to make reparations to and peace with everyone whom they have ever wronged (Matthew 5:23-26, cf. Acts 24:16). And there is no assurance they will choose to do that.

 

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they help Christians in need (Matthew 25:34-46). And there is no assurance they will choose to do that (3 John 1:10b).

 

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they provide for their families (1 Timothy 5:8). And there is no assurance they will choose to do that.

 

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they don't commit the unforgivable sin, which is blaspheming the Holy Spirit (Mark 3:29). An example of blaspheming the Holy Spirit is saying that an act performed by the power of the Holy Spirit (e.g. Matthew 12:28) was performed by Satan (Mark 3:22-30). There is no assurance initially saved people will never choose to say that (cf. 1 Corinthians 14:39b; 1 Thessalonians 5:19).

 

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they don't remove words from the book of Revelation and then publish the altered text as if it were the original, without repentance (Revelation 22:19). There is no assurance they will never choose to do that (cf. 2 Corinthians 4:2).

 

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they don't worship the future Antichrist and his image, and willingly receive his mark on their right hand or forehead (Revelation 14:9-12, Revelation 13:16-18). There is no assurance they won't choose to do that (1 Timothy 4:1).

 

Initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they continue in God's goodness to the end (Romans 11:20-22). And there is no assurance they will choose to do that (Luke 12:45-46).

 

Initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:11, Revelation 2:26). And there is no assurance they will choose to do that (Revelation 21:7-8).

 

All this is said not to engender any unhealthy fear in believers, but the healthy fear which all believers are supposed to have (e.g. Romans 11:20-22).

 

And all this is said not to engender any despair in believers, but the healthy, close-clinging to the person of Jesus himself, which all believers must continue in (John 15:4-6). For while God makes it possible for initially saved people to do the right thing (Philippians 2:13) toward their ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Philippians 2:12b, Matthew 7:21), this is possible only so long as they continue to abide in Jesus. For on their own, apart from Jesus, they can't do anything good (John 15:4-5).

 

Also, Jesus isn't a hard taskmaster. He will never give believers more work to do for him than they can easily bear (Matthew 11:28-30). So if believers ever get stressed out that Jesus is asking them to do too much, it is not Jesus asking them to do whatever is stressing them out (Luke 10:40-42). They need to take a step back and ask Jesus what particular spiritual work he is actually asking them as individuals to do (Mark 13:34, Romans 12:6-8).

[His_disciple3]

there is no saved today lost tomorrow saved the next day lost again after that, you are saved or you are lost,  the lost can get saved but the saved can't get lost . Bible2 said that Jesus would cast some out, Jesus said I will in NO wise cast ye out. I'm trusting Jesus for my salvation, and following His teaching, also Jesus, Said: I will never leave nor forsake you.  Now some will say that we can walk away from Jesus and forsake Him, well scriptures asks what powers can separate us from the Love of God, our walking away is not that power that will separate. Jesus said that He would leave the secure sheep and find the wandering sheep.   Jesus never said; I will never leave you, unless you leave me. those that He did cast out He said I never knew you, they weren't saved and cast out, He NEVER knew them. some mistake Chastisement for lost salvation. God Corrects/ chastises His Children, God doesn't turn His back or cast me out of the family when I sin, He chastises  those that He loves, not cast out. however we must live by ALL Scripture that is inspired of God , and it says that we are not to continue in sin, because we are under Grace, we are to yield our members unto righteousness, and not unrighteousness, we are to present our bodies a living sacrifice holy and acceptable before God. There is only one Sacrifice and that is everlasting not temporal as the bulls and goats. even at the worst state of the prodigal son, He said in my FATHER"S house are servants that are in a better state than I, He never lost the relationship, he still had a father, and the father never said if my wandering son will return, I will forgive But waiting on the porch knowing that His wayward son would return. I thank My God He did it all for me. and that He didn't leave it up to me. Praise the Lord for being my AUTHOR and FINISHER of my faith, Thank you Father for providing my Redeemer and Knowing That I would never be able to redeem myself. I will stand before You one day Humbled and grateful for  all the things you did for me through your love, salvation. but never will I be able to stand before you and demand that you must let me in, for the things I did for you. Thank You Father, thank you Jesus ( the Son) thank you Holy Spirit.  

[bcbsr]

Concerning the idea that one must have faith and works in order to be saved, as "Bible2" suggests, "What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works" Rom 4:1-6

Among the Christian community there are those who believe the gospel as Jesus and Paul clearly laid out, that salvation is contingent solely upon faith. Salvation is presented as a gift and not one which is contingent upon works. But much of the Christian community is much like the sect of the Circumcision Paul opposed, or shall we call them the sect of the Baptism, in which salvation is contingent upon one's involvement in religious rituals and upon one's compliance to rules and regulations.

If salvation is contingent upon one's work, there can be no joy, as "Bible2" admits saying, "there is no assurance that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation" In fact it's useless to even say "initially saved" if salvation is references an event that hasn't occurred yet, which according to that theology a person has no guarantee he will be saved from . But Jesus said, "he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life." John 5:24

In contrast to the sect of the Baptism, All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Gal 3:10  Such people cannot experience assurance unless they ignore their own sinfulness. For logically such a soteriology indicates that a person is saved only so long as they don't sin. (Would anyone like to argue this point?)

Many of the verses misread by the anti-OSAS sects, which indicate a correlation between one's behavior and one's salvation status are not speaking of salvation being contingent upon one's works, but rather the converse, that one's behavior is conditioned upon one's salvation status, as I noted  concerning 1John 3:9. Works indicate a person's salvation status, but nor more cause a person's salvation status than an X-Ray machine cures broken bones. Jesus said, "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me." John 10:27 While those of the FAITH+WORKS sects think that it's behaving like a sheep that makes them a sheep, Sheep behave like sheep because they are sheep. (It's not true that if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck)

If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit," and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud." 2Peter 2:20-22 A dog and a pig can only pose as sheep for so long. He who endures to the end will be saved because time itself will weed out the posers.

Note for example 1John 2:19 "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." Note the principle "if they had been of us" (ONCE SAVED), "they would have remained with us" (ALWAYS SAVED).

In opposing the gospel of salvation by faith apart from works, that itself is an indicator of what they are.

Concerning Rom 8:38,39 where Paul speaks of what can separate those born of God from the love of God, "Bible2" suggests that we can separate ourselves. But Paul doesn't allow such a possibility in that text. For first of he says, "nor anything else in all creation". So to people like "Bible2" I ask, "Are you God, or are you part of creation?" If we're part of creation, then it explicitly says that we cannot cause the loss of our own salvation. Secondly is the phrase "neither the present nor the future". If that's the case then Paul is quite literally saying, "ONCE SAVED, ALWAYS SAVED".

But the sect of the Baptism preach a different gospel.

Edited May 27, 2015 by bcbsr

[Guest Butero]

Abraham was also justified by works, as it says in James.  Faith without works is dead. 

[Sister]

 

1John 3:

9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.

10  This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

 

What does verse 9 means? Just for starters, the fact that verse 10 indicates that verse 9 is something visible, even measureable to the point of distinguishing children of God from children of the devil eliminates interpretations like this is referring to something merely internal to those born of God. 

 

bcbsr

 

V9 - I believe it's speaking about the resurrection of the saints.  In the resurrection, we will be made perfect and cannot sin anymore. 

 

V10 - At the resurrection of the saints, we will see who is there and who is not.  Whoever partakes in that resurrection is truly born of God, and it will be evident.  Also evident is that those not included in the resurrection were actually children of the devil.  Anyone who does not do righteousness is not a child of God, and this includes anyone that does not love his brother.

 

Only on the day of resurrection will there be absolute clarity.