Your closest friendnt Posted July 18, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,870 Content Per Day: 2.41 Reputation: 2,764 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted July 18, 2015 When Philip ask Jesus a question what concept did he have in his mind, can you please try to discern the thoughts of Philip, Show us the Father? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted July 18, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 908 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,653 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,837 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted July 18, 2015 Was Jesus not teaching them already about the Father? Â And if the Father was so familiar in the Old Testament, why would Philip have had to ask about one the Jews knew all along? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RustyAngeL Posted July 18, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 23 Topic Count: 155 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 7,464 Content Per Day: 1.02 Reputation: 8,810 Days Won: 57 Joined: 03/30/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/12/1952 Share Posted July 18, 2015  Jesus, preincarnate, is the lone creator of all things in the beginning (Isaiah 44:24 / Colossians 1:16) and is therefore the Father of creation. The Heavenly Father's only begotten Son is Jesus (John 1:14, John 3:16-18, Hebrews 10:5, Hebrews 1:5). So, Adam the son of God (Luke 3:38) and the sons of God in Genesis 6 and Job 1 and Job 2 are sons of the preincarnate Jesus (God the Word see John 1:1-3). Jesus (preincarnate) is the I AM in the burning bush (Exodus 3) the one who called out Abram from Ur and who visited him before rescuing Lot and destroying Sodom and Gomorrah, the one who dealt with him in Genesis 22, the one who wrestled with Jacob, who visited Moses and who gave him the Law...  The Heavenly Father is present but not revealed nor is he the primary one Israel dealt with. He is not even our direct Father but is our Father through adoption.  Romans 8:15 (AV)15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.  So Jesus has been YHVH (the LORD) Israel has been dealing with all along.  John 7:28–29 (AV)28Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not.29But I know him: for I am from him, and he hath sent me.   So the indication is that they never knew the Father but it was Jesus they were dealing with and did not know it and rejected the very LORD himself. I am not sure that I can agree with your opinion that God the Father had not been revealed to Israel in the OT. What is the main point your trying to make in this thread as I haven't picked up on it. I have found reading through your thoughts and opinions which you have shared to be overly complicated.  Of course this is just my opinion but God pretty much revealed Himself when He parted the Red Sea, and took His people safely to the other side.  Not to mention all the other ways God revealed Himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted July 18, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,870 Content Per Day: 2.41 Reputation: 2,764 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted July 18, 2015 The father of the Israelites the God of abraham. is he the same as the creator? Is he the same one who appear to Moses? Many heard his voice in mount Sinai, If you were a Jew, and you heard Jesus say: about the Heavenly Father that time. "No one has ever heard his voice and no one knows him , and he never made contact with no one but me" As a Jew, me or you ( if were Jewis, and heard him say that, I am sure that we will disagree with him), We will say, no you are wrong. Many heard him speak in the dessert, and many heard him talk to Moses at the door of the Tsbernacle, Jesus knew all that, but he still said, no one knows the Heavenly Father, and no one has heard his voice. Why? That time yes. But now, are we still disagreeing with him, and why? Can you make your evaluation, without the influence of anyone, just you and Jesus? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 One of the reasons the Old Testament avoided a constant reference to God as father is because of the pagan futility practices of the surrounding nations where the gods were "fathers" of certain kings or even of nations themselves and this idea of a "divine father" had a strong sexual overtones that God did not want any part of. He is Israel's King, not Israel's "father." For that reason it was necessary in OT times to avoid interacting with God as "father" in order to avoid the possibility adopting pagan rituals that would have ascribe sexual activity to God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted July 18, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 908 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,653 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,837 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted July 18, 2015   Jesus, preincarnate, is the lone creator of all things in the beginning (Isaiah 44:24 / Colossians 1:16) and is therefore the Father of creation. The Heavenly Father's only begotten Son is Jesus (John 1:14, John 3:16-18, Hebrews 10:5, Hebrews 1:5). So, Adam the son of God (Luke 3:38) and the sons of God in Genesis 6 and Job 1 and Job 2 are sons of the preincarnate Jesus (God the Word see John 1:1-3). Jesus (preincarnate) is the I AM in the burning bush (Exodus 3) the one who called out Abram from Ur and who visited him before rescuing Lot and destroying Sodom and Gomorrah, the one who dealt with him in Genesis 22, the one who wrestled with Jacob, who visited Moses and who gave him the Law...  The Heavenly Father is present but not revealed nor is he the primary one Israel dealt with. He is not even our direct Father but is our Father through adoption.  Romans 8:15 (AV)15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.  So Jesus has been YHVH (the LORD) Israel has been dealing with all along.  John 7:28–29 (AV)28Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not.29But I know him: for I am from him, and he hath sent me.   So the indication is that they never knew the Father but it was Jesus they were dealing with and did not know it and rejected the very LORD himself. I am not sure that I can agree with your opinion that God the Father had not been revealed to Israel in the OT. What is the main point your trying to make in this thread as I haven't picked up on it. I have found reading through your thoughts and opinions which you have shared to be overly complicated.  Of course this is just my opinion but God pretty much revealed Himself when He parted the Red Sea, and took His people safely to the other side.  Not to mention all the other ways God revealed Himself.   God the Father did?  Hmmm  I don't see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted July 18, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 908 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,653 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,837 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted July 18, 2015 The father of the Israelites the God of abraham. is he the same as the creator? Is he the same one who appear to Moses? Many heard his voice in mount Sinai, If you were a Jew, and you heard Jesus say: about the Heavenly Father that time. "No one has ever heard his voice and no one knows him , and he never made contact with no one but me" As a Jew, me or you ( if were Jewis, and heard him say that, I am sure that we will disagree with him), We will say, no you are wrong. Many heard him speak in the dessert, and many heard him talk to Moses at the door of the Tsbernacle, Jesus knew all that, but he still said, no one knows the Heavenly Father, and no one has heard his voice. Why? That time yes. But now, are we still disagreeing with him, and why? Can you make your evaluation, without the influence of anyone, just you and Jesus? Â Yep. Â God the Word God the Word God the Word in all the cases you cite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted July 18, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 908 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,653 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,837 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted July 18, 2015 One of the reasons the Old Testament avoided a constant reference to God as father is because of the pagan futility practices of the surrounding nations where the gods were "fathers" of certain kings or even of nations themselves and this idea of a "divine father" had a strong sexual overtones that God did not want any part of. He is Israel's King, not Israel's "father." For that reason it was necessary in OT times to avoid interacting with God as "father" in order to avoid the possibility adopting pagan rituals that would have ascribe sexual activity to God.  Your reasoning. But it must be compared to the reasons given in scripture:  John 1:18 (AV) 18No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.  John 5:37 (AV) 37And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.  Ergo, though the Father was present, obviously, as was the Holy Spirit, the primary individual in the Godhead man has been dealing with was Jesus preincarnate.  A really good Bible search text throughout the scriptures is "know me" pertaining to the LORD. It reveals how the people of God did not "know me..." until Jesus came and "then they will know that I AM YHVH." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 Actually it is not "my reasoning" at all. God specifically said that he did not want to be worshipped the way the surrounding pagans worshipped their gods, which include the concept of God as the "father" of the nation. He didn't want the nation to view itself as God's offspring and adopt the paganism and fertility rites of the surrounding nations (which they did anyway). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted July 19, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,870 Content Per Day: 2.41 Reputation: 2,764 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted July 19, 2015 One of the reasons the Old Testament avoided a constant reference to God as father is because of the pagan futility practices of the surrounding nations where the gods were "fathers" of certain kings or even of nations themselves and this idea of a "divine father" had a strong sexual overtones that God did not want any part of. He is Israel's King, not Israel's "father." For that reason it was necessary in OT times to avoid interacting with God as "father" in order to avoid the possibility adopting pagan rituals that would have ascribe sexual activity to God. First we have God and Adam. Then we have Noah, and God starting a new fa Ily. It failed. Then we have Abraham, and Isaac, you know how God got involved with Isaac's birth. Nobody else was like Isaac on earth before, the separation from the rest of the world with the promice and the sircumsition. and Jacob, this time God included all the house of Jacob, Latter we have Moses and the ten commandments, and the Law and the temple. He reavedefd him self all the time as their father, and they his children. And he gave them the New Calendar to keep them in line. Even thought he created all people he had excluded the rest of the world, promises were made along the way that he will include the whole world. That he will take a nation for him self and will include people from the whole world. He had a nation the house of Jacob, holy, through the attoment but with separation, with spiritual death, Next is to have a Nation that includes the whole world and without separation, but with the life of God, through the attonment of Jesus Christ. Reaching out to the whole world, with forgiveness of sins, the LIFE, and a Heavenly Inheritance for his Nation. Now we are introduce to the Heavenly Father, who is not only the Father of Jesus but also our Father. My God, my Father, and your God and your Father. Paul all the time introduces , grace be to you from our Lord Jesus our Savior and his Father and our Father, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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