Guest shiloh357 Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 No one was is praying to the angels, four living creatures, or the 24 elders. Their is no mention of dead saints being aware of what is happening on earth and no mention in Revelation that dead saints receiving our prayers. Angels are not mediators, neither are the four beasts and neither do the 24 elders. In Hebrews 12 the author is drawing on ancient Olympic races as a metaphor. His point is that based on those he has discussed, who were people of faith whom he depicts as a cloud of witnesses (cloud meaning, numerous), we are to likewise run the race the have run ahead of us. Yes, Hebrews 12:1 is talking about Moses, Abraham, Gideon etc. in Hebrews 11. He is continuing a line thought that extends through chapter 12. That's why 12:1 begins with "therefore." "Therefore" means, "in light of what I have just said." The word, "therefore" points back to v. 11. The people in Hebrews 11 are witnesses to what it means to live by faith. They left a legacy behind for us to study and learn from. That's all the writer of Hebrews is saying, he presents those OT people as an example to us. And yes, he is referring to the witness of the witnesses. Nothing in that verse is meant by the author to indicate that they are watching us or know what we are doing. You are trying really, really hard to take a verse that has nothing to do with people in heaven looking down on us and twist around to fit your pagan, Roman Catholic "theology" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RustyAngeL Posted August 9, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 23 Topic Count: 155 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 7,464 Content Per Day: 1.02 Reputation: 8,810 Days Won: 57 Joined: 03/30/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/12/1952 Share Posted August 9, 2015 I believe ..that anything ....'all things are possible for God ' and he loves us and knows our needs . But He does not and will not have Heaven contaminated with the garbage in this world. And seeing things going on in this world when we are in Heaven would do just that. No one and I mean no one can see anything in this world from Heaven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thereselittleflower Posted August 9, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 58 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 5,457 Content Per Day: 1.69 Reputation: 4,220 Days Won: 37 Joined: 07/01/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted August 9, 2015 I forgot to add something. The writer of Hebrews just gave us a historical list of saints in ch 11, and then tells us about the Great Cloud of Witnessess watching us. Remember there were no chapters or verses in the original text, so verse 1 of ch 12 follows directly on the last verse of ch 11. This is made clear by the use of "kai" in Heb 12:1 which means "and" and here is translated "seeing we also," which connects a series of interconnected steps following the same idea, same thought. He was talking about people, saints, and he continues to talk about people, saints. So in this historical context, the writer of Hebrews tells us Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, The word "witnesses" "martys" "μάρτυς" means an historical sense one who is a spectator of anything, e.g. of a contest The writer of Hebrews is clearly saying they are spectators of us, watching us run the race for the crown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 Wow, when I pointed out previously that he was referencing historical OT saints, you said it wasn't true. Glad to see you changed your view on that. The writer of Hebrews is using a metaphor in the race where the OT saints are akin to spectators at a race. But it is just a metaphor. The writers of Hebrews is just saying that these OT saints serve as witnesses in either word or deed, as to the race they have already run. We are supposed to take from their example. The writer of Hebrews isn't saying that they are in heaven watching us. That is not even close to the intent of the author. The problem with your exegesis, littleflower is that you are trying to use the Scripture to support an agenda. You are ignoring the author's intent an instead trying to mold the Bible around what you want to prove (eisegesis). You really don't have a clue about what you are doing here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thereselittleflower Posted August 9, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 58 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 5,457 Content Per Day: 1.69 Reputation: 4,220 Days Won: 37 Joined: 07/01/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted August 9, 2015 shiloh, really, you need to follow what others say to you better. And my dear, you are simply wresting the scriptures. Witnesses means spectators. There really isn't much more to say when someone insists on making something mean something other than it means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Yes, witnesses means spectators and I already acknowledged that. You just didn't pay attention. My point is that the writer is drawing on the Olympic races as a metaphor. Metaphorically, the OT witnesses are like the spectators at the race. But it is just a metaphor. You trying to force something on to the text that is foreign to the point the author raises. You want to believe that people in heaven are watching us and that they are listening to and receiving our prayers. You are hijacking Hebrews 12:1 to prove what you want to believe, rather than letting the text speak for itself. What you're saying doesn't even fit the context. He is not talking about what is going on in heaven. The focus is on earth and living by faith. I am simply relieved that no one on here is accepting your nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vic66 Posted September 13, 2015 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 31 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 649 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 200 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/30/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted September 13, 2015 (edited) There is no people in heaven yet they will get there when Christ return for the Church at present only the father son, Holy Ghost and the angels are in heaven Edited September 14, 2015 by vic66 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missmuffet Posted September 13, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 34 Topic Count: 1,991 Topics Per Day: 0.48 Content Count: 48,689 Content Per Day: 11.80 Reputation: 30,343 Days Won: 226 Joined: 01/11/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted September 13, 2015 (edited) There is no people in heaven yet they will get there when Christ return for the Church at present only the father son, Holy Ghost and the angels are in heaven If the believers who have died are not in heaven then where are they?Are you SDA? Edited September 13, 2015 by bopeep1909 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thereselittleflower Posted September 13, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 58 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 5,457 Content Per Day: 1.69 Reputation: 4,220 Days Won: 37 Joined: 07/01/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted September 13, 2015 There is no people in heaven yet they will get there when Christ return for the Church at present only the father son, Holy Ghost and the angels are in heaven Paul says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. To be absent from the body is to be where Jesus is.Jesus is in heaven.Therefore:To be absent from the body is to be in heaven with Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missmuffet Posted September 14, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 34 Topic Count: 1,991 Topics Per Day: 0.48 Content Count: 48,689 Content Per Day: 11.80 Reputation: 30,343 Days Won: 226 Joined: 01/11/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted September 14, 2015 There is no people in heaven yet they will get there when Christ return for the Church at present only the father son, Holy Ghost and the angels are in heaven Paul says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. To be absent from the body is to be where Jesus is.Jesus is in heaven.Therefore:To be absent from the body is to be in heaven with Jesus.Yes littleflower.Jesus said to the thief on the cross "Today you will be with Me in paradise".He did not say that his soul would sleep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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