4 prophecies & 2 mysteries in just 2 verses !!

[Marilyn C]

Hi Serving,

 

Thanks fine. It happens to me also. Sometimes there are a lot of conversations going on & we need to address them. Now, no hurry, just when you can. Don`t be pressured.

 

Marilyn.

[Serving]

Hi Serving,

 

Thanks fine. It happens to me also. Sometimes there are a lot of conversations going on & we need to address them. Now, no hurry, just when you can. Don`t be pressured.

 

Marilyn.

 

Hi M,

 

Sorry for taking so long, I have had a very hectic 7 days of work & was still involved with some other posts which I considered much easier to address time wise.

 

You make some interesting points I admit, and even though I consider that this subject rests mainly on speculation, a couple of things you mention have pricked my interest since I am familiar with every scripture you posted & you have shown a link that I haven't yet considered (since I gave up on the subject some time ago now for other mysteries which were showing themselves at that time). 

 

And even though I still believe that speculation will be the ultimate foundation to the answer of the 3rd heaven (of which I have some of my own), those points you made, at least to me, are EXCELLENT points to discuss further.

 

So let me get todays job out of the way & ponder on them whilst I'm at work .. nice work M.

 

Chat soon.

[Marilyn C]

 

Hi Serving,

 

Thanks fine. It happens to me also. Sometimes there are a lot of conversations going on & we need to address them. Now, no hurry, just when you can. Don`t be pressured.

 

Marilyn.

 

Hi M,

 

Sorry for taking so long, I have had a very hectic 7 days of work & was still involved with some other posts which I considered much easier to address time wise.

 

You make some interesting points I admit, and even though I consider that this subject rests mainly on speculation, a couple of things you mention have pricked my interest since I am familiar with every scripture you posted & you have shown a link that I haven't yet considered (since I gave up on the subject some time ago now for other mysteries which were showing themselves at that time). 

 

And even though I still believe that speculation will be the ultimate foundation to the answer of the 3rd heaven (of which I have some of my own), those points you made, at least to me, are EXCELLENT points to discuss further.

 

So let me get todays job out of the way & ponder on them whilst I'm at work .. nice work M.

 

Chat soon.

 

Hi Serving,

 

I`m so glad you are taking time to consider the thoughts & scriptures presented. There is no hurry as I also am busy `tap, tapping` in Rev. etc. I regard this topic as so important & one that has not been really discussed properly. Thus I do appreciate you discussing this together & taking our time & not `shootn from the hip,` as it were.

 

No hurry, Marilyn.

[Serving]

Hi M,

 

Honestly sis, I struggled greatly as to how to go about answering you, I've done several answers only to delete them & start again .. so I've decided to answer you this way instead ..  .. so please don't take me as being rude, just as not being sure which is the best angle to address your explanation with so I'm just going to go with my last effort .. (it's a little rough around the edges but you will get the drift ) 

 

 

(1) > 3rd heaven is only mentioned once throughout the whole of scripture and no throne is mentioned here but paradise is. (not meaning there is no throne in paradise)

 

 

2 Corinthians 12:1-5

 

1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

 

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

 

3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)

 

4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

 

5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.

 

 

(2) > So the 3rd heaven & paradise are one single place. 

 

 

(3) > As for the 1st & 2nd heavens, they are not mentioned anywhere at all in scripture .. so anything to do with these 2 will be pure speculation if to do with them being spirit realms.

 

We just can not say that they are spiritual realms because they are never ever spoken of, again, it would be but pure speculation to do so otherwise (as in one of them (1st heaven / 2nd heaven) being of the "highest heavens" of which "highest heaven" you mentioned).

 

But we can agree that the 3rd heaven is paradise as in the spirit realm heaven itself where God dwells, thus by extension where His throne is too, but that is all I could agree with you on concerning this Marilyn .. and by it's very nature in relation to the 1st & 2nd heaven conundrum above, the 3rd heaven to me stands for one distinct realm .. heaven itself where God dwells .. that is .. One place being all inclusive, heaven itself .. paradise .. as it was called in antiquity .. one realm with one throne (room), God's throne.

 

 

(4) None of the examples you gave dealt with the 3rd heaven, they only spoke of heaven & God's throne & Christ's throne, there was no other correlation / relation .. and as for Satan's throne, this throne was only mentioned from his earthly perspective (with the king of Tyre) and his hope of raising his own throne above God's. 

 

However, think about this M .. in antiquity, or biblical speak, traditionally heaven was also used to describe the place where clouds pass or where the rain falls from / birds inhabit .. meaning .. the sky. And heaven was likewise used for where the sun & moon are .. where both together are often called the heavens .. a clue? .. some examples :

 

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

 

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 

 

Psalms 104:12 By them shall the fowls of the heaven have their habitation, which sing among the branches.

 

Deuteronomy 4:19 And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.

 

1 Chronicles 27:23 But David took not the number of them from twenty years old and under: because the LORD had said he would increase Israel like to the stars of the heavens.

 

(5) > Notice 1 heaven dealt with earth's inner atmosphere?

 

And the other (2nd) heaven dealt with the outer atmosphere (space)?

 

Notice 2 distinct "places" there? 

 

Wouldn't that then mean the below example I've put together would be the more accurate rendering of 1st, 2nd & 3rd heaven since both inner atmosphere & outer atmosphere have been described as the heavens, meaning more than one .. meaning we do in fact have evidence of them within scripture & within the context of the subject at hand?

 

Example:

 

 

1st heaven = inner atmosphere = the sky

 

2nd heaven = outer atmosphere = space

 

3rd heaven = paradise / spirit realm / heaven itself where God dwells

 

 

And again .. since we have absolutely no examples of the 1st & 2nd heaven anywhere in scripture as in them being spirit realms (relating to one of them being the "highest heaven" itself in this subjects inferred context), but we do have examples of inner atmosphere (rain, clouds, birds etc)  & outer atmosphere (sun, moon stars etc)) together (meaning TWO) with both being termed together as the heavens .. doesn't this lead one to assume that these two are indeed the 1st heaven & 2nd heaven? thus leaving the 3rd heaven as simply the "place" where God Himself dwells?

 

(6) > And since God is never dethroned or able to be, then Satan himself in fact never had a throne or ruled as a "kingpriest" as you said whilst in heaven, but was instead the anointed covering cherub who, like all the other examples in scripture reveal the covering cherubs as those who cover God's certain features with their wings & go with God & His portable throne wheresoever He goes? Besides being with Him & around His throne in His heavenly throne room?

 

(7) As for Satan (whom you are correct to identify here) below :

 

Ezekiel 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

 

NO cherubs or seraphim are ever recorded as having their own "dimensions / levels" where "their thrones" are, nor as being priests .. but are always mentioned as being gathered around One throne .. God's throne itself, which is in heaven / paradise.

 

So I do have a problem in that I cannot agree with your explanation sister M .. and I did read it very carefully several times over.

 

Please do not get offended, if you will be patient, I ask that you please let me directly address your explanation next ..  point by point to show what I perceive as weaknesses in the relations "he" or "those" who created this doctrine based their case on.

 

kind regards.   

[Marilyn C]

Hi Serving,
 
Thank you for your comments. We agree on this -

1st heaven = inner atmosphere = the sky

2nd heaven = outer atmosphere = space

3rd heaven = paradise / spirit realm / heaven itself where God dwells.

 

So I`m not sure what you think we are disagreeing on?

 

Marilyn.

[Serving]

Hi Serving,

 

Thank you for your comments. We agree on this -

 

 

1st heaven = inner atmosphere = the sky

2nd heaven = outer atmosphere = space

3rd heaven = paradise / spirit realm / heaven itself where God dwells.

 

So I`m not sure what you think we are disagreeing on?

 

Marilyn.

 

Okay .. hmm .. maybe we should just take one step at a time then because if I have misunderstood you in my reply, I realise now, it was mainly because you said this (which was influencing my entire last answer to you) :

 

 

I `see` the city as an authority area in the lower heavens realm. It is made of substance from heaven, so nothing physical from earth. We are told that the spirits of just men (& women) of Hebrews 11 looked for a city whose builder & maker is God. Thus I believe they will be the ones who will rule over the earth from there. The function of the wonderful city is to be the interlocking connection between the physical & spiritual realms.

 

So this must be where the misunderstanding is? That confused me because it seemed to me that you were speaking of heavenly realms as in spiritual dimensions (ie 1st & 2nd heavens) where Satan had rule over one of them from where he was cast out of God's mountain !!

 

So let's clear that up .. do you see the above city as the one where Satan once "ruled" as a "kingpriest" from where he was cast out?

 

That should help this along now .. sorry for misunderstanding, & I thought I heard you right too

[Marilyn C]

Hi Serving,

Thank you for your comments. We agree on this -

1st heaven = inner atmosphere = the sky

2nd heaven = outer atmosphere = space

3rd heaven = paradise / spirit realm / heaven itself where God dwells.

So I`m not sure what you think we are disagreeing on?

Marilyn.

 

Okay .. hmm .. maybe we should just take one step at a time……

Hi Serving,

I agree totally that we should `take one step at a time,` as it seems we are trying to juggle too many balls at once. So if we start from where we agree & then little steps forward with discussion I think we`ll find where there is need for clarification. So your outline I will put in bold & then I will add a little more.

1st heaven = inner atmosphere = the sky

The earth & the `kingdoms of the world` with their rulers. (Matt. 4: 8)

2nd heaven = outer atmosphere = space

Where Lucifer / Satan was cast to. He usurped authority as `the Prince of the Power of the air,` (Eph. 2: 2) & `Principalities & Powers – rulers of the darkness of this age ` `spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.` (Eph. 6: 12)

This area we know from God`s word is `for Christ.` `Principalities, Powers …all created… for Him.` (Col. 1: 16)

3rd heaven = paradise / spirit realm / heaven itself where God dwells.

The `seat of God`s Power,` the eternal throne / authority of God.

The place where Lucifer was the `anointed cherub,` & had a `throne,` plus a whole order of angels. (Ez. 28: 14, Isa. 14: 13)

Marilyn.

 

Edited July 29, 2015 by Marilyn C

[Serving]

Hi Marilyn,

 

The agreed explanations :

 

 

1st heaven = inner atmosphere = the sky

 

2nd heaven = outer atmosphere = space

 

3rd heaven = paradise / spirit realm / heaven itself where God dwells.

 

 

 

Okay, now we can move forward slowly

 

 

2nd heaven = outer atmosphere = space

 

Where Lucifer / Satan was cast to. He usurped authority as `the Prince of the Power of the air,` (Eph. 2: 2) & `Principalities & Powers – rulers of the darkness of this age ` `spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.` (Eph. 6: 12)

 

 This area we know from God`s word is `for Christ.` `Principalities, Powers …all created… for Him.` (Col. 1: 16)

 

Okay, I see this differently ..

 

Revelation 12:9  And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

 

If we go by the explanations of the heavens which we agreed upon .. then the description above in revelations tells us that Satan was cast into the earth & not into the 2nd heaven, but cast into the earth's atmosphere which correlates with the 1st heaven.

 

This would agree with his title "the prince of the power of the air" .. since air is only found within earth's atmosphere, the 1st heaven.

 

Which would also agree with this :

 

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in  high places.

 

Places of authority of this world (within it) temporarily assigned to Satan & his angels by God & all taking place within the 1st heaven.

 

Colossians 1:16  For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

 

I believe the bulk of this scriptures focus is mainly dealing with the earth where Satan was cast into .. "prince of the air" would even match the agreed upon description of the 1st heaven :  "prince of the 1st heaven" would agree nicely.

 

I think this is very telling too :

 

When Satan boasted to Jesus, Satan only ever said that "all authority was given him" over the worlds kingdom's .. knowing Satan's pride, if he had power within the 2nd heaven (outer space) he sure would have said something to further enhance his power & prestige without doubt whilst trying to impress Jesus & have Jesus worship him wouldn't he? Wouldn't he "pull out all his big guns" when big noting himself against the Son of God even? I don't believe for a second within that situation that Satan would not mention all his dominion if it indeed included the 2nd heaven .. that would go against his whole nature especially in the above situation where he is trying to impress our Lord with those things put under his control. 

 

So in conclusion, I do not believe that Satan has any power within the 2nd heaven (outer space) except maybe for a short distance just beyond earths outer atmosphere, but is instead confined within the 1st heaven's atmosphere (earth) where God said he cast him into .. think about this sister M,  God is still using the sun & moon & stars for signs etc .. God is in full control over the 2nd .. Satan would not be allowed to interfere with that important sphere which is for signs & seasons etc .. imagine the mayhem if Satan were allowed control over that space !!

 

 

Take your time mulling over this if you want Marilyn, no rush.

 

 

 

 

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi Marilyn,

The agreed explanations :

1st heaven = inner atmosphere = the sky

2nd heaven = outer atmosphere = space

3rd heaven = paradise / spirit realm / heaven itself where God dwells.

Okay, now we can move forward slowly

2nd heaven = outer atmosphere = space

Where Lucifer / Satan was cast to. He usurped authority as `the Prince of the Power of the air,` (Eph. 2: 2) & `Principalities & Powers – rulers of the darkness of this age ` `spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.` (Eph. 6: 12)

This area we know from God`s word is `for Christ.` `Principalities, Powers …all created… for Him.` (Col. 1: 16)

Okay, I see this differently ..

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

If we go by the explanations of the heavens which we agreed upon .. then the description above in revelations tells us that Satan was cast into the earth & not into the 2nd heaven, but cast into the earth's atmosphere which correlates with the 1st heaven.

 

Hi Serving,

Some good discussion & detail there. I`ll address the first part as I see it. Here is the scripture you are referring to –

`And war broke out in heaven: Michael & his angels fought against the dragon & his angels. & they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil & Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, & his angels were cast out with him. …..

Woe to the inhabitants of the earth & the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time,….

Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman…..for time & times & a half a time, from the presence of the serpent. (Rev. 12: 7 – 9, 13 & 14)

We can see from those scriptures that Satan (the Devil, the dragon, the Serpent) was cast down from the heavens (celestial) to the earth in the last part of the tribulation, (3 ½ years). The Devil knew he only had `a short time.` Also note the phrases, `that serpent of old,` & ` called the Devil & Satan, who deceives the whole world.` They show that it is not at the beginning of time that this is happening.

Now as to whether Satan was ruling from the 1st or 2nd heavens.

`...to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities & powers in the heavenly places.` (Eph. 3: 10)

Heavenly – Gk. `epouranios,` above the sky, celestial.

Thus we see that `principalities & powers,` are rulers from the authority position in the celestial realm. To rule, one must be above the area that is ruled. Thus to rule over the `air,` & the earth, Satan & his angels are above them.

Thus he is called – `The prince of the power of the air..` (Eph. 2: 2) which shows that Satan is the leader (prince) & his position is above the area that he is ruling over, (power of the air).

Together, Satan & his host of wicked angels are called `Principalities & Powers,` (Eph. 3: 10) `Principalities…powers..` (Eph. 6: 12). This is the authority position they have usurped in the celestial realm - `epouranios,` above the sky, celestial.

 

 

Marilyn.

 

[Serving]

Hi Marilyn,

 

Yes, agreed, this is a good discussion

 

 

`And war broke out in heaven: Michael & his angels fought against the dragon & his angels. & they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil & Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, & his angels were cast out with him. …..

 

Yes correct, Satan was cast out from heaven, he no longer has access to heaven (no place was found for him any more), and where was he cast to? Scripture tells us he was cast to the earth .. keeping with the 1st heaven theme.

 

Woe to the inhabitants of the earth & the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time,….

 

 

Again we see Satan confined to the earth keeping with the 1st heaven theme.

 

 

Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman…..for time & times & a half a time, from the presence of the serpent. (Rev. 12: 7 – 9, 13 & 14)

We can see from those scriptures that Satan (the Devil, the dragon, the Serpent) was cast down from the heavens (celestial) to the earth in the last part of the tribulation, (3 ½ years). The Devil knew he only had `a short time.` Also note the phrases, `that serpent of old,` & ` called the Devil & Satan, who deceives the whole world.` They show that it is not at the beginning of time that this is happening.

 

Marilyn, this is another subject  .. but I agree that Satan was not cast out of heaven at the beginning either .. but was cast out when Christ ascended to heaven, like these scriptures point to :

 

John 12:21-31

 

23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.

 

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

 

25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

 

26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

 

27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

 

28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.

 

29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.

 

30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.

 

31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

 

Notice the "hour has come" (v23) .. hour is a short span of time .. not 2000 odd years later which times had not yet come .. so the casting out of Satan from heaven was about to occur back then .. in those days. 

 

Notice the "hour" Jesus expounded upon .. concerning His crucifixion to come (v27) .. speaking of the same "hour" Satan's judgment was about to be passed. 

 

And v31 confirms that "hour" of judgment upon Satan which correlates to Christ's crucifixion & ascension .. and the time frame Jesus gave for this "casting out" event to occur was  "now" .. back then .. which harmonizes perfectly with revelation chapter 12 .. revealing that Satan was cast out after Christ ascended into heaven .. back then.

 

 

CONTINUED ..