Burning_Ember Posted July 28, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 21 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,009 Content Per Day: 0.30 Reputation: 100 Days Won: 3 Joined: 09/20/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted July 28, 2015 therelittleflower has been addressing minimum wage issues much better than I probably would be. shiloh, if you want social mobility in America, getting paid more makes a huge difference. Countries with less economic disparity, easier access to/cheaper education than the US have much greater social mobility, making it much easier to as it is said, "Fulfill the American Dream". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 I have NEVER, in my life, worked a job where I had a say in my rate of pay. Most people have no say in that, unless the employer offers to negotiate. I don't really care what your daughter makes. If someone agrees to a job at a certain rate of pay, they have no right to complain that they are being treated unfairly. They agreed to do the job for the amount of pay offered. People make more or less money all over the country. My job in auto reman was around $12. 00 which is good pay for around here. But in Detroit, the same job would be something like $20 an hour or maybe more. That's how it works, I am not losing anything because someone else in a different part of the country with a higher cost of living is making more money than me, because they pay more in fuel, rent, food, utilities and so on. Around here, rent is about $450-500. A friend of mine in NYC makes twice as much as me, but pays $1500 a month for an apartment. So at the end of the day it all evens out. So to be honest, around here, my friend's wife does pretty good and lives pretty good to. Her an her husband combined pull in just under $1,000 dollars a week. So they are not hurting at all. They live in a subdivision next door to lawyers and doctors. When you're doing that good, why would you need to worry about negotiating a wage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 If that's true BE, why is everyone wanting to come to America? Why don't they go and fulfill the American dream in their own little pothole countries?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayin jade Posted July 28, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 44 Topic Count: 6,178 Topics Per Day: 0.88 Content Count: 43,795 Content Per Day: 6.20 Reputation: 11,243 Days Won: 58 Joined: 01/03/2005 Status: Offline Author Share Posted July 28, 2015 Yes, I meant $2.00 an hour. But she agreed to work for $2.00 plus tips and she makes more money than people who make many times more per hour, so again, she is not being cheated and is quite happy doing what she is doing. Her husband has a college degree and makes less than her at his job. She makes more than the employees who make min. wage at the Olive Garden. Does she have a choice on wages if she wants to be a server? Agreeing to something you have no choice on is not truly a free choice. She can't negotiate a better wage. In contrast, my daughter, at Olive Garden here would make over $9/hour before tips. That translates into hundreds of dollars of lost wages for your friend's wife every week. Why is there such inequity across the United States in "tipped" jobs? My daughter's wage opens up doors for her that your friend's wife's wage closes. And they do the same job and live in the same country. No one is forcing her to work as a waitress. If she is unhappy about her wages, get another job. She is not entitled to more just because she loves her job and wants to be paid the same as a plumber or doctor. I loved my job as an archaeologist way back when. It didnt pay enough to cover medical bills so I ... brace for it ... left that field and got another career. One that paid better. Any "inequity" is due to free market capitalism as well, and the differences in the local economies. For instance, cost of living in new york city is far higher than in texas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qnts2 Posted July 28, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,875 Content Per Day: 0.71 Reputation: 1,336 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/13/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted July 28, 2015 Yes, I meant $2.00 an hour. But she agreed to work for $2.00 plus tips and she makes more money than people who make many times more per hour, so again, she is not being cheated and is quite happy doing what she is doing. Her husband has a college degree and makes less than her at his job. She makes more than the employees who make min. wage at the Olive Garden. Does she have a choice on wages if she wants to be a server? Agreeing to something you have no choice on is not truly a free choice. She can't negotiate a better wage. In contrast, my daughter, at Olive Garden here would make over $9/hour before tips. That translates into hundreds of dollars of lost wages for your friend's wife every week. Why is there such inequity across the United States in "tipped" jobs? My daughter's wage opens up doors for her that your friend's wife's wage closes. And they do the same job and live in the same country. Yes, she does have a choice. Even though she might like her job, thousands of people leave a job they like to change to a more lucrative field. She can choose to remain as a waitress because she really likes the job, or she can change fields to make more money. Actually, if she has the skills, restaurants which are more expensive or serve a high volume with higher average bills, are better for waitresses. A restaurant with an average meal cost of $15, times 4 people makes and average of a $60 bill. 20% of $60 is $12.00. If you only wait on 1 table and hour, $12 plus the wage of $2 means $14 an hour. That is above minimum wage in most cities. Make it to a really high end restaurant, those waiters can make as much as $200-$300 an evening. Become a very proficient high end waiter/waitress, then you can join a program to travel to various exclusive vacation spots during peak tourist season to be a waiter in high end hotels or restaurants, then travel to another exotic place when that season is over and a new place goes into peak season. (I have met waiters and waitresses who did this. They had a very very good income, and got to travel and see many very exclusive places.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burning_Ember Posted July 28, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 21 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,009 Content Per Day: 0.30 Reputation: 100 Days Won: 3 Joined: 09/20/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted July 28, 2015 I have NEVER, in my life, worked a job where I had a say in my rate of pay. Most people have no say in that, unless the employer offers to negotiate. I don't really care what your daughter makes. If someone agrees to a job at a certain rate of pay, they have no right to complain that they are being treated unfairly. They agreed to do the job for the amount of pay offered. People make more or less money all over the country. My job in auto reman was around $12. 00 which is good pay for around here. But in Detroit, the same job would be something like $20 an hour or maybe more. That's how it works, I am not losing anything because someone else in a different part of the country with a higher cost of living is making more money than me, because they pay more in fuel, rent, food, utilities and so on. Around here, rent is about $450-500. A friend of mine in NYC makes twice as much as me, but pays $1500 a month for an apartment. So at the end of the day it all evens out. So to be honest, around here, my friend's wife does pretty good and lives pretty good to. Her an her husband combined pull in just under $1,000 dollars a week. So they are not hurting at all. They live in a subdivision next door to lawyers and doctors. When you're doing that good, why would you need to worry about negotiating a wage? What a wonderful labour market you must live in. Here living costs are very inflated. An apartment starts at $1,250, your other base living costs for transportation ($105) below average utilities + internet ($300) basic groceries ($150) a phone ($45) brings your monthly total expenses to $1,800, which is about the lowest people around here spend getting a balanced but very marginal set of groceries. Assuming you take public transit entirely and have no car and spend no money on anything else. Let's be generous and assume that someone is making $3/hr above the minumum wage at $13.20 an hour, gets 8 hours of paid work a day, 5 days a week, and is in good health and takes zero sick days. You bring in about $2,000-$2,050 after taxes, which is just under the poverty line. In reality, your job likely earns you $12/hr, and you average 24 hours a weeks for work. which is about $1,150 a month. Whoops. That's well below the poverty line. If you split rent with another person your monthly budget might just break even. Want a better job? Good luck! That job at the coffee shop at $12 an hour you you got? You beat out not only 25 people at your skill level, but five other applicants who had six years of post secondary and six years work in way higher position they just got laid off from. Probably because you know a guy who knows the general manager. After seven years of working very hard when the economy wasn't in a total nosedive here, and being very lucky with how I'm able to sell my product(s) within the visual arts industry, I'm not in that position. But anybody who loses their job, or anyone who doesn't already have a very solid position locked up is. If that's true BE, why is everyone wanting to come to America? Why don't they go and fulfill the American dream in their own little pothole countries?? Which "pothole countries" are those, exactly? People also move to Canada, Australia, France, The UK, Germany, Japan, Brazil, Eastern Europe, Russia, Jordan, Turkey, Dubai... Migrant labour isn't something that just happens in America. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Your example is not typical, BE. It's not how much you make, it is what you do with what you have, most of the time. None of what you said really changes the fact that you choose to work for someone and you agree to their wage offer and implied in that agreement is that you feel it is fair and adequate compensation for your labor and your needs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burning_Ember Posted July 29, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 21 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,009 Content Per Day: 0.30 Reputation: 100 Days Won: 3 Joined: 09/20/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted July 29, 2015 Your example is not typical, BE. It's not how much you make, it is what you do with what you have, most of the time. None of what you said really changes the fact that you choose to work for someone and you agree to their wage offer and implied in that agreement is that you feel it is fair and adequate compensation for your labor and your needs. It's typical for where I live. Many places in America have far worse job prospects than anything presented in this thread, including what you've presented. You can repeat that all you like, shiloh. But nothing about accepting a job offer requires you to then "feel" that the wage you are getting for that work is fair. The only thing within that argument that is correct... Is that it is that it is implied when you accept a job is that you are agreeing to get paid that amount, not that you think that it is fair. You would otherwise be saying someone is incapable of getting paid a wage and feeling that it is unfair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thereselittleflower Posted July 29, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 58 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 5,457 Content Per Day: 1.69 Reputation: 4,220 Days Won: 37 Joined: 07/01/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted July 29, 2015 Your example is not typical, BE. It's not how much you make, it is what you do with what you have, most of the time. None of what you said really changes the fact that you choose to work for someone and you agree to their wage offer and implied in that agreement is that you feel it is fair and adequate compensation for your labor and your needs. It's typical for where I live. Many places in America have far worse job prospects than anything presented in this thread, including what you've presented. You can repeat that all you like, shiloh. But nothing about accepting a job offer requires you to then "feel" that the wage you are getting for that work is fair. The only thing within that argument that is correct... Is that it is that it is implied when you accept a job is that you are agreeing to get paid that amount, not that you think that it is fair. You would otherwise be saying someone is incapable of getting paid a wage and feeling that it is unfair. I agree. I don't understand how some people can think that simply because you are forced to accept a wage you find to be unacceptable, because you have no real alternative, that you think it is somehow fair. Some of what passes for wages is essentially slave labor. When people had slaves they had to provide their clothes, food, shelter. Employers today generally don't. They provide a wage. When those wages are so small as some of what we are talking about here, E\especially given the cost of living, It starts to look like something this country supposedly left behind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 No, my argument assumes that a rational person won't work for a wage that either will not meet their needs or they feel is not sufficient compensation. I would not work for $2.00 an hour if it were offered. "Fair" is relative. What one person sees as fair compensation, others will not. A "fair wage" differs from state to state because it costs more to live in some states. In some states the min wage is much higher and it is lower in other states where the cost of living is lower. You can't put a solid dollar amount on what a fair wage is. Not only that, but as I have noted that "fair" cuts both ways. "Fair" also applies to what a business can actually afford to pay without having to raise prices or adjust employee hours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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