PRE-TOJT Catching Away

[Ezra]

There is no exception as to why the children of God would go thru His wrath, which is what the 7 year tribulation time period is. The FULL 7 years..

The focus is on the lost sinners in the world, and primarily about Israel and the Jewish people.

I have mentioned this in different threads at different times.  But you will  never convince those with a Martyr Complex.  They desire to be subjected to both the Tribulation as well as the Great Tribulation. 

 

Christians will indeed has trials, testings, tribulations, afflictions, and martyrdom in this life.  That is a given. But Daniel's 70th week is a very definite and specific period where all of God's wrath against the ungodly, and all of Satan's wrath against the world, will be exhibited in earth.  The Tribulation is called "the time of Jacob's trouble" because the Jews will come under God's judgments.  The Great Tribulation follows the setting up of the blasphemous Abomination of Desolation.

[Sister]

The 1st thing I would like for all to answer (if you disagree with pre-tojt) is what are you doing to prepare for "the tribulation" as you call it?

What about winter? can you start a fire? build a shelter? purify water? are you storing up food?

If not, why are you wasting your time answering me, you got alot of work to do...

Please answer that first ^

 

InSeasonOut.

 

First of all what is a pre-tojt?  You didn't explain it.

Secondly, this is a public forum.  Do you think what we proclaim is only limited to only our reading?  Anyone from all over the world can read what we say.

What are we preaching to our brothers and sisters?  What is our message to them and anyone else interested?

 

What we are doing is to blowing the trumpet.  Declaring before-hand what is coming, ..confirming the word already written thousands of years ago,..testifying of this wonderful truth we have been given......bringing it to everyones attention like the prophets did and the apostles, confirming over and over.

Lets warn our brothers and sisters to spiritually prepare so that we can all start strengthening the things which are weak and finish what we started, enduring to the end.

 

Storing up food and supplies will not help us one bit.  In fact it is a sin. The material will not save us but the truth will. 

So we need to store up spiritual treasures in heaven which is truth.

Only the truth will set us free, and we need to be witnesses to this truth.

Without truth we will be in darkness, and when all these things happen, we can be spiritually prepared, so lets warn the brothers not to feel forsaken when the time comes, because we all have to go through it, but strengthen the things which are weak and spiritually prepare for battle.

 

 

So we must start getting prepared by feeding on the truth, go back to the scriptures and see what they say and not man.  Test everything.

Let each and every one of us analyse ourselves whether we be walking in the spirit, and go back to the word of the Lord and see if we have been obeying his every commandment, ....check with ourselves if we have really come out of Babylon.  Do a personal check list, we have the word, lets use it.

Check if we have been feeding on Christ's flesh or strange flesh, check, check, check, go over, go back to the word and compare.

 

Time to wake up all our brothers and sisters from their deep slumber.

Christ warned us that if we are only luke-warm he will spew us out of his mouth.  Listen to what he's saying.

 

Every man will be accountable for every word he speaks.  Let us not be too wise in our own opinions, but share with each other what the Lord has to say.  Let's edify each other, and love one another, and not get offended because of the word.

[InSeasonOut]

PRE-TOJT = Pre-Time of Jacobs Trouble.... Catching away. (Jer 30:7)

It's a more biblical way of saying "pre-trib rapture" .... theres been many complaints about it around the water cooler...

Plus its not called "the tribulation".

 

ANYWAY.... Good response, for the most part... i don;t recommend fighting the "new world order"

Martyrdom will be the price of salvation for many "trib saints" (beheading Rev 20:4)

So post trib / pre wrath folks are warning about whats coming and " must endure to the end to be saved"

I hear that a lot... you said it... (but i am saved, to deny eternal security is to say you have to do something to keep it = works)

 

(if you don't believe in eternal security, can you personally lose your salvation? - I like to ask that question)

 

Most post trib / pre wrath folks aren't doing anything to prepare, those that are...storing up food are in sin?

I would agree its covetous, its greedy, etc, and everything would eventually be taken from them...

So if someone don't store up food but must endure to the end...what do they do? hunt ? fish ? start a fire?

What if they aren't prepared..they have to endure?, can they lose their salvation?.... i just see this as inconsistant time and time again....

[Serving]

 

The 1st thing I would like for all to answer (if you disagree with pre-tojt) is what are you doing to prepare for "the tribulation" as you call it?

What about winter? can you start a fire? build a shelter? purify water? are you storing up food?

If not, why are you wasting your time answering me, you got alot of work to do...

Please answer that first ^

 

 

Draw close to the Lord, come out of Babylon the Great, accept what is coming and make your decision .. pray for strength.

 

If you're having images of people building shelters, storing up food etc, then you really haven't understood the scope of what is coming .. which reveals that YOU are not prepared right now today & unless you start investigating this subject for yourself & understanding the prophecies for yourself, instead of parroting the "mainstream" doctrines which were formed centuries ago that had far less understanding of the implications of the technology / surveillance / signs of our times etc, then it will come upon you like the bursting of a breach in the wall that you have built around you.  

 

What is coming will be unprecedented .. they (men) have been planning this for centuries now, the pace has accelerated by degrees these last decades, let alone the last five years .. they are already prepared (are you?), they already know who most of us are, they have been working & their king Satan has been working too, do not be naïve.

 

By the time the mark is made compulsory, it's not going to be like, "oh, we better start making sure they don't try building shelters & storing food out in the wilderness" .. lol .. no, they have already prepared for that and have it all covered .. and unless God intervenes personally & by His choice .. and even forgetting about the powers that be & their already in place preparations, besides that, how does a man hide from fallen angels unless God has sealed you?

 

And only 144 000 are sealed & protected from what is coming .. first go and understand what God means when He says that He is going to sift / purge us with fire, learn of the "sickbed", discover the "leanness" of our times & what that means, the "famine" and what that means, read about "she who has need of nothing", take note of "Nod", and how a certain group will be "struck after the manner of Egypt" and what that means, and I could just keep on & on ..  

 

There certainly is "a lot of work to do" indeed.

 

 

In response to " Serving" , I think you were still confused about tribulation and wrath

 

When God opens the first seal, unleashing the Antichrist, bringing war and famine, - thats the wrath of God,

 

 

Please go back and understand what was meant by "him" .. that "antichrist", there is no such "man", the one you speak of is called the false prophet.

 

Secondly, the first seal was opened long ago already .. do not confuse the usage of the seals & their meanings, they represent sequenced time spans wherein the signs of the times are unfolding .. so heed the Lord and "watch" and you will see. That wicked one to come is actually represented by the pale horse, hence his name being "Death".. you have erred, the white horse was counterfeit Christianity spread by the sword as is exactly what happened in history, go seek this out so you can understand better brother.  

 

In relation to the wrath of God which is only poured out when every body has chosen their "teams", that is, those who have chosen the mark & those who did not ..

 

Revelation 16:1-2

 

1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

 

2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

 

This is the wrath of God, it ONLY occurs once all the world is marked with that number .. Do not confuse the personal everyday tribulations / oppressions be they physical harm / psychologically  / spiritually / financially etc etc etc etc etc etc  that Christians have faced in their walk for 2000+ years now, those are the things Christ already told us would come & did & do even now .. you are confusing an appointed time of set wrath with the ongoing "If they hated Me, they will hate you too" fulfilment.

 

The trumpets & the vials .. That is the appointed wrath of God.

 

 

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[Serving]

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Not all the Bible is " for you " ... the OT is written for our learning.. its not for us... There is a lot of instruction in righteousness in the OT for Christians

but be careful getting doctrine out of it. Theres still pleanty that crosses dispensatonal lines tho....

 

The old Law & it's statutes are" not for us" I agree without hesitation, but every thing else? Hmmm.

 

If the OT is "written for our learning" as you admitted .. er .. well ..  then it is for "us" !!

 

If there were nothing to learn from the OT then I'd agree "it wouldn't be for us", but .. it is for us too .. realise this, even Jesus quoted the prophets and their relevancy to "us".

 

Look at the very first book of the bible for example .. the attack on Genesis for "us" today from science as a tiny example, if you have studied the OT with the NT indwelling Spirit, then you would stand up to their crafty attacks and realize that the whole attack has to do with undermining Christ's divinity itself & salvation & being created in God's image etc etc , if indeed you are spiritually mature enough to see where the "dots" are leading behind that attack ..  then you would not say what you have said period .. so no, you are greatly mistaken brother.

 

Have you never read all the end time prophecies therein directly related to us of today? Of the state of "Christianity" in God's Eyes ..the lack of understanding because of doctrines of men that the MANY feed on? meaning the majority of believers? His anger at the "shepherds" who have put the flock to sleep with nice words & ear tickling? Haven't you noticed the anomalies when God speaks to Israel for example, how some statements are out of place in context .. that dualities are INTENDED and directed at "all of us" today even? Look with your "spiritual eyes" and the secular imposed scales that have been forced upon spiritual matters unbeknown, will, be removed ..

 

Because I am speaking of the DOCTRINE within every book in the NT no matter the title of the book (Hebrews, Corinthians etc etc etc ) .. that DOCTRINE is for "all of us" without exception.

 

Oh, and "getting doctrine out of the OT"??

 

Brother, the doctrine is in the New Testament, the details / mysteries of the prophecies are in the Old .. harmonize the two and you will come to see that your advice is gravely missing the point.

 

 

 

The book of Hebrews is written to HEBREWS - God inspired and preserved it, thats why its in the Bible

 

This is wrong on so  many levels I don't know where to begin .. usually, these days anyway,  I tend to try using common sense over posting multitudes of scripture because it seems these days that scriptures are too easily manipulated to say whatever people want them to say, but I am learning that even the common sense approach isn't so sensible anymore. The Lord warned us of this after all .. "the night will come where no man can work" He said .. so, besides the obvious, do you even discern what that night stands for that Christ spoke of?

 

To truly grasp it rather than give the obvious metaphoric explanation, first one must understand what the OT prophecies reveal concerning these times of "night" .. but .. if you think the seals haven't even begun yet .. then frankly, you will never understand it as Christ meant it, and it will come crashing down upon you suddenly & violently .. which is why the Lord said "watch" .. don't "watch" your church doctrines, watch the world leaders, the leaders behind the leaders, the signs of the times etc etc etc .. "watch" and then you can understand His written Word for yourself & not be put to sleep by crafty doctrines & smooth arguments of so called "learned" men responsible for the over 40 000 + contradictory doctrines in the "Christians world" today . THEY are responsible for that mess, not we who learn on our own with the Spirit guiding .. we don't write those books & make those DVD's etc etc etc. 

 

I caution you to do your own study in the Lord, drop these old doctrines (& the "fancy new ones") written in days where they couldn't even begin to grasp the simplest of things taken for granted in these days we live in, nor did they know what has already come & gone for "us" of these last days .. you are feeding on the dying rays of uninformed doctrines long out dated by the reality of the here & now which those doctrine makers couldn't of imagined in their wildest dreams .. look at Israel for example ..  all those past doctrine makers of ALL the mainstream churches / doctrines said it was only metaphorical and that was that .. say any different & you were mocked .. but whose "mocked" now? (Oh and by the way .. THAT information was IN the OT NOT in the NT, which alone smashes your opinion on this "OT is not for us" error)

 

Nevertheless ..

 

The majority of the 4 gospels was to do with Jesus speaking to Israel .. but all the things He said weren't really for "ALL OF US " by your above logic, so lets drink & be merry, for tomorrow we die.

 

The majority of Acts dealt with (besides Israel) peoples like the Corinthians, the Romans, the Ephesians etc etc etc, so by your logic, they're not "for us" either right, but for them?

 

Shall I continue?

 

Not only the book of Hebrews, but the entire NT is for us friend, do not get sucked into that "replacement theology" type of thinking, there just isn't enough time to untangle that web before the storm hits you unawares & unprepared.

 

 

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[Serving]

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and God preserved the Bible and now there is millions of perfect copies that will be preserved in the Bible that will be in 70th week.

Its just logical... All the inspired books are together in 66 books, but not everything is personally for you, sorry

 

I do not know what you mean here, but see my above reply. (btw, according to you, not all of those 66 books are for us anyway, so why use them as an example to back one perspective but not the other? .. be consistent please)

 

 

Again we can get things out of Hebrews and James but the book as a whole is NOT written to Christians in this time period

of what is commonly called the church age = the Cross to the Rapture, is how i define it.

 

You need be more specific, broad statements aren't helpful when one is saying that "Hebrews & James & the bible as a whole", for example, "isn't for us" ..but .. certain "things" out of them are !! Huh?

 

Tell me, exactly WHO is determining what "things are "for us" and what things aren't? 

 

I don't need to be told what is laid out for us & what isn't .. it's all common sense, you see ..you are likely confusing historical events with their centred narrative, confusing that aspect with the  DOCTRINE therein, which is meant for "all of us" regardless of the historic circumstances certain groups found themselves in at certain times .. 

 

ALL doctrine within ALL books of the NT are for us no matter what ethnic group they were spoken to at the time .. the DOCTRINE transcends the "group" first hearing it, it spreads out unto "all who hear it's message".. where are you learning this confusion?

 

 

I'm not a hyperdispensationalist but Paul mainly has all the doctrines for Christians in the "church age"

 

 

I have no concept of what you mean by  "hyperdispensationalist" neither do I care to know all these "secular" Christian tags invented by the so called "learned" who sow confusion as is written.

 

The doctrine is universal friend .. why are you separating it into "age relevancy"? Do you mean prophecies? They are "age relevant" but the doctrine itself? Sorry .. but this is in clear conflict with Christ's message.

 

 

There's a difference between the spirit of antichrist and the final literal antichrist.

 

Of course there is a difference, there is no literal "Antichrist" is the difference, there is only the false prophet (individual) and the Beast Empire of the 10 kings  counted AS one .. for they become as one by God's very own doing as is written in revelations .. please COUNT :

 

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

TWO only .. with no "Antichrist" to be seen anywhere but in misinterpretation / understanding what the Apostle meant by "he" when speaking of this "Antichrist".

 

And THEN after the millennium :

 

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

NO "Antichrist" there either ..

 

Oh, and not forgetting these at the 2nd judgment :

 

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

Hmm, seems this "Antichrist" is nowhere in relation to prophetic truths.

 

 

When God allows the final literal antichrist to come forth that IS God's wrath upon all who rejected Jesus Christ,

some people become believers and thus "trib saints" and must endure to the end to be saved.

 

Sorry? Then why did you dispute what I said in the first place?

 

The wrath of God comes directly after the set period of tribulation of the saints which lasts 3 1/2 years which is counted among the 2300 days, which is only 6.49 years which means there is missing time which means the answer to that missing time must be somewhere & guess where it is .. BOTH the OT and the NT.. regardless of the 3 1/2 years & the 3 1/2 years that make up the 7 years, there is a reason for this "missing time" which is not missing at al but is indeed revealed elsewhere which requires a mix of common sense & spiritual discernment & knowledge of both OT & NT prophecies to grasp and fill in that "missing time" to make the 7 years understanding accurate & "whole" again in prophetic terms .. which again demolishes your claim the the OT is "not for us".

 

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[Serving]

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And when the mark to buy or sell is there, avoiding it is works salvation, you have to avoid it to be saved, thats breaking eternal security.

 

Sorry you lost me there ..

 

 

Obviously a different dispensation that this church age won't be in, the first 31/2 years is no cake walk

 

Again, no idea what you mean here sorry.

 

Regards.

[Sister]

PRE-TOJT = Pre-Time of Jacobs Trouble.... Catching away. (Jer 30:7)

It's a more biblical way of saying "pre-trib rapture" .... theres been many complaints about it around the water cooler...

Plus its not called "the tribulation".

 

 

inSeasonOut

Ok, thanks, I can't keep up with all the abbreviated words these days!

 

  Jeremiah 30:7   Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

 

When we say "the great tribulation", we are referring to a tribulation so great that nothing like this has ever occurred before, nor will ever again throughout the whole earth. 

We are speaking of the end days, the last 3 1/2 years before Christ returns.  "The last" tribulation ever meaning ...."The" great event which is to come upon the whole world. It will be so great. We all know what time we are referring to.  Playing on words is not going to change a single thing.  The saints in the past had their tribulations, but we have an even greater one, because it involves the whole world.

 

The persecution of the saints and Jacobs trouble all fall into that 3 1/2 year time frame.  Jacob's trouble does not start and end with the war of Armageddon, but begins when they get decieved into accepting their false Messiah.  It all starts here and builds up to that final war.  There will be death at the start, going the whole way through to the end with much more death.

 

 

ANYWAY.... Good response, for the most part... i don;t recommend fighting the "new world order"

Martyrdom will be the price of salvation for many "trib saints" (beheading Rev 20:4)

So post trib / pre wrath folks are warning about whats coming and " must endure to the end to be saved"

I hear that a lot... you said it... (but i am saved, to deny eternal security is to say you have to do something to keep it = works)

 

 

We can't fight it.  The scriptures have to be fulfilled.  We have to accept that God has planned it this way and allowing it to happen.

To endure, is to not give in. Keep the faith and eyes on Christ. It will be tough.  Do not receive the Mark of the Beast no matter what they do.  Christ will provide us with a little help and strength, we will not be alone.

 

Regarding "works".  Works are what our spirit produces.  They are our fruits.  A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.

Are our works, "works" of the devil, or "works" of Christ.  What is coming out of our spirit?  Is it holiness, or wickedness?  To be luke-warm we will have both good and bad fruits.  Christ does not want to come and find us with rotten apples on our tree, because it shows him that we only took on part of what he taught us and neglected the rest.

 

(if you don't believe in eternal security, can you personally lose your salvation? - I like to ask that question)

 

 

 

This is a tricky question, I need more time to answer.  It's a kind of a yes and no answer.

Christ already knows before we are born if we will be there with him at the resurrection.  He knows beforehand what will be inside us.  If he has chosen us, we cannot lose our salvation because he will draw us to him leading us to all truth by feeding us.

 

John 6:27   Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

 

If we are laboring for that meat which comes from Christ, then we will be sealed.

But not everybody is laboring for that same meat, therefore will not be fed by Christ, so Christ will produce many stumbling blocks because their heart is not looking to him for the answers. The stumbling blocks are in his word, they will not be made to see, nor can they hear.  How many times has someone refuted something, and we give them scripture proving Christ's words saying the exact opposite, and they still argue?  Mind boggling.  This is how Christ does it.  They are blinded.

 

Many are called but few are chosen. 

 

Can one lose his salvation?  not if he didn't have it in the first place. 

If someone builds on another foundation other than Christ then this one's salvation is in vain.

 

Others Christ will find with many spots on them.  There are sins but not leading to death.  Because he is so full of mercy, he will give one last chance.  This is purification through fire.  In other words, chosing Christ and suffering death for his name instead of trying to save one's own life.  All his bad works will be burn't in the fire, and after it, he will come out clean and washed.

 

There is a small small group who will not go through this, because they made their robes white during their walk.  They followed the Lamb whereever he goes. They had no spots on them, and therefore they do not need to be purified with fire.  Read the letters to the seven churches.   There is definately a minority, but unfortunately not the majority.  We dare not make ourselves of this number, but know they exist.

 

 

The salvation Christ promised us is true and we can have faith in that.  I believe his every word, and he is true to his word....but only if we follow him with all our heart and actually hear what he has to say, and do it.  Christ chooses his saints.  He says who will take part in that first resurrection and who will not.  It is not up to us, we don't get to make that final decision, so we must not take the salvation offered to us for granted.  It is not a license to sin, but salvation is going through that door of Christ and actually "changing" for him, and seeking all truth and knowledge.  It involves a lot more than just worship and praise,  It involves the heart and sacrifices, going against what our flesh wants to do.... repentance.  This is a basic commandment and starting point through our walk. The devil is constantly after our souls and we must be on guard until the end.  It's not over yet.  The devil has many more tricks up his sleeve, and constantly tries to make us fall.   Get to the finish line then we can say that "we made it".  Lets not be overconfident because the devil wants us in that state. It makes us complacent.

Christ gave so many parables about this.  The christians will be sifted thoroughly and the lip only servers will not be included in his wonderful plan.

 

The main thing is let's look at doing the things that please him, so that we can be confident that when he comes, he will hopefully chose us.  Lets all work towards this and believing in this salvation offered to us if we obey him, hoping and praying that he will forgive all our imperfections.

 

 Philippians 2:12   Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

 

 

Most post trib / pre wrath folks aren't doing anything to prepare, those that are...storing up food are in sin?

I would agree its covetous, its greedy, etc, and everything would eventually be taken from them...

So if someone don't store up food but must endure to the end...what do they do? hunt ? fish ? start a fire?

What if they aren't prepared..they have to endure?, can they lose their salvation?.... i just see this as inconsistant time and time again....

 

 

 

 

We just take each day as it comes, for the Lord will provide.  He will give help for a while, and when he says it's time, then it's time.

What's the point in storing up food if a hurricane or flood takes it all away?

What if we lose our houses, are we going to push a shopping trolley everywhere?  Or get a horse to pull a cart?

 

If we are not prepared, then there's a big risk that our spirit will not be strong enough to take this kind of shame, and we could give in to pressure.  Don't forget all our friends and family will be laughing at us saying "I thought you were going to be raptured?, then why are you still here?" , "Did your Lord forget to collect you" or they'll say "I told you it was all a waste of time believing in this God of yours, because it's not true".  All these things they will say.  We will be red faced if we say we will be collected before the time is due.

[Bible2]

InSeasonOut said in post 8:

 

The 1st thing I would like for all to answer (if you disagree with pre-tojt) is what are you doing to prepare for "the tribulation" as you call it?

 

Believers, no matter what their rapture-timing view, need to be obedient now if they want to spiritually endure to the end during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:13). For only obedient believers will have their spiritual houses on the rock, so that they will endure the coming storm (Matthew 7:24-25). Disobedient believers will have their spiritual houses on the sand, so that they will fall away during the storm (Matthew 7:26-27). They will become part of the falling away, the apostasy (2 Thessalonians 2:3), the departure from the faith (1 Timothy 4:1), which will occur during the future tribulation (Matthew 24:9-13, cf. Isaiah 8:21-22), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

 

But what about those believers who, even though they may be obedient in their actions now, are holding so strongly mentally to the mistaken pre-tribulation rapture idea or to the mistaken mid-tribulation rapture idea that they could be unprepared mentally to endure the future tribulation in its entirety?

 

As an analogy of this mental preparation, imagine some kids were at a summer camp, and their counselor told them: "Tomorrow, there is going to be a long, hard hike". The kids walked away and started talking among themselves. One of them said: "Well, he didn't say we all have to go on the hike, right?" And a second kid said: "And he didn't say we all have to go the whole distance". But a third kid said: "I'm pretty sure he meant the hike's whole distance is for all of us. He didn't say there's going to be a long, hard hike for only some of us, and a day of goofing off, or only a short, easy hike for others of us". But the first kid answered: "Nah, we don't have to go on that hike. I'm going fishing tomorrow". And the second kid answered: "We all don't have to go the whole distance". But the third kid answered: "Don't be so sure, you two. I'm going to bed early, so I'll be all fresh and ready for the whole distance of the hike".

 

The next day at the morning camp meeting, the first kid brought his fishing pole and was all set for a day of fishing. But the third kid brought his sturdy hiking boots and a big canteen of water, and was all mentally prepared for a long day of hard hiking. The counselor then told the kids: "Okay, in a few minutes, we're all going to start on the hike I told you about, so make sure you've got everything you need". The first kid felt sick to his stomach when he heard that. He dropped his fishing pole and sat down on the ground and started crying like a baby. He just couldn't imagine starting on a long, hard hike after he'd been all set for a day of just sitting around fishing. But he was forced to go on the whole hike anyway, and this made him and the second kid (who thought he wouldn't have to go the whole distance) so mad at the counselor that they grumbled against him to the other kids during the hike, cursing him out as a cruel taskmaster (cf. Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21).

 

But the third kid took the whole hike in stride (cf. Revelation 14:12, Revelation 13:10), and stuck up for the counselor the whole time, even though the third kid suffered awfully from blisters during the hike. The counselor, even though he was at the head of the hiking line, could overhear what the kids said behind him. And after the hike was over, he made sure to reward the third kid by giving him as a gift the counselor's own fishing pole, and by making sure the third kid was assigned day after day to only the most enviable camp duties, like getting to build and light the nightly campfire, and getting to make the evening camp announcements over the camp's PA system. But the counselor made sure to assign the first and second kids to the worst kitchen- and latrine-cleaning duties day after day.

 

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The main reason the Bible gives clear warning ahead of time about everything Christians alive at the time of the tribulation will have to face (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16), before Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), is so Christians can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that is coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and not commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

 

-

 

On the other hand, preterism (whether full or partial), as well as historicism (in its various modern forms), and pre-tribulation rapturism, symbolicism, and spiritualism, could all be animated by the same spirit of fear: that the church alive today throughout the world would otherwise have to physically suffer through the future, almost-entirely literal, worldwide tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For these 5 views of preterism, historicism, pre-tribulation rapturism, symbolicism, and spiritualism, in their different ways, each gives a mistaken assurance to the church alive today that it won't have to physically suffer through that tribulation.

 

Preterism says the tribulation happened in 70 AD (or a few years before and including 70 AD). Historicism says it happened over a long period in history (e.g. during the rise and height of the RCC's power in Europe during the Middle Ages and after, or during the rise and spread of Islam in the Middle East and elsewhere during the Middle Ages and after). Pre-tribulation rapturism says Jesus will return and rapture the church into the 3rd heaven before the tribulation. Symbolicism says the tribulation is only symbolic of theological themes which those in the church have always had to struggle with (e.g. Matthew 6:24), and is symbolic of only-local physical persecutions which some in the church have always had to face, and are still facing today in some places. And spiritualism says the tribulation is only spiritual events which go on only within the hearts of individuals.

 

But when the almost-entirely literal, worldwide tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 begins in our future, the shaky doctrinal wall which (in their different ways) these 5 views have each tried to build up between the church and the tribulation, will be completely shattered (Ezekiel 13:10-12) as the church worldwide begins to physically suffer through the tribulation (Matthew 24:9-31, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). These 5 views may have left some in the church unprepared mentally to undergo this physical suffering, to where these 5 views could even contribute to some in the church ultimately losing their salvation because of committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12) during the tribulation, when they become "offended" that God is making them and their little ones physically suffer through it (Matthew 24:9-12, Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22, Luke 8:13).

 

Even though the church today throughout the world will have to physically suffer through the future tribulation, the church need not fear this (cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13, Revelation 2:10). For even though many in the church will suffer and die during that time (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), this will be to their gain, as it will bring their still-conscious souls into heaven to be with Jesus (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8; see also 2 Corinthians 4:17-18; 2 Timothy 2:12), and it won't rob them of the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) of obtaining eternal life (Titus 1:2, Titus 3:7) in an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

 

InSeasonOut said in post 8:

 

The 1st thing I would like for all to answer (if you disagree with pre-tojt) is what are you doing to prepare for "the tribulation" as you call it?

 

What about winter? can you start a fire? build a shelter? purify water? are you storing up food?

 

Regarding physical preparations, Isaiah 26:20-21 can be addressing those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at the time of the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation 16), the final stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. These believers will still be waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). And they won't be appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9). So Isaiah 26:20 can refer to them going into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth, just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:7).

 

Also, nothing forbids believers from preparing these chambers now, and hiding in them out in the wilderness at some point in our future (Revelation 12:6a), not only during the time of the 7 vials, but also during the just-preceding, literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6b) of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18). For his reign will involve the wrath of Satan coming against those in the church (not in hiding) who will still be alive on the earth at that time (Revelation 12:17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

 

One way for believers to prepare these chambers would be for them to bury old shipping containers. Shipping and trucking companies could have such shipping containers stacked up in their back lots ready to sell cheap to anyone who will take them off their hands.

 

Once you have one or more shipping containers at your wilderness site, you can rent a bulldozer for a few days and dig big trenches in which to bury them. The trenches need to be deep enough so that you can pile 6 feet of dirt on top of the containers. For that much dirt is required to stop radiation from any nuclear fallout from reaching the containers. Also, 6 feet of dirt will serve as great insulation, so that no matter how hot or cold it gets on the surface, the shipping containers will always remain at a pleasant 68 degrees Fahrenheit (20 degrees Celsius).

 

Once you have put the shipping containers in their trenches, you can cut a manhole in the center of the top of each container, and then cut two smaller, 6-inch ventilation holes in the top of each end of each container. Then you can attach to each manhole a 7-foot-long vertical PVC pipe with the same diameter as the manhole, and attach to each ventilation hole a 7-foot-long vertical PVC pipe with the same diameter as the ventilation hole. Then you can use the bulldozer to carefully bury the containers, without breaking off the vertical pipes.

 

Then you can place a 14-foot ladder down the manhole pipe of each container. And you can go down into each container and place a small, battery-powered fan inside one of its ventilation holes, to be turned on whenever fresh air is needed in the container. Your containers will then be all set to start stocking with canned food, water, bedding, batteries, and all other needed supplies whenever you want to do that. You will then need to secure the top of each manhole-pipe with some sort of thick PVC, perhaps screw-on, cover which can be locked from both the outside when you are away from the container, and from the inside when you are in the container. To keep any radioactive dust or ash from entering very far into the ventilation pipes, you can place a cylindrical air filter near the top of each pipe. And to keep rain, insects, and small animals from entering the pipes and affecting the filters, you can place a nylon screen and side-vented plastic cap over the top of each pipe. Another thing to worry about is floodwater pouring into the pipes. So your wilderness site shouldn't be in a floodplain, but on high-enough ground where it won't be flooded.

 

Because one of the reasons to go underground is to be hidden out of sight of hostile people during the Antichrist's worldwide reign, you will want to restore the surface of the ground above the buried containers so that, as much as possible, it appears like it did before you began digging. The tops of the manhole and ventilation pipes of each container will need to be camouflaged with brush, so that any hostile people passing by won't notice them. Also, in case some hostile people with dogs happen to pass by while you are hiding inside a container, you will need to place some long-dead (non-smelling) carcass of a small animal near enough to each ventilation pipe so that if the dogs pick up your scent emanating from a ventilation pipe, the hostile people with the dogs will think that their dogs are just interested in the carcass of the animal, and won't start rummaging through the brush and discover the ventilation pipe.

 

Besides camouflaging your underground hideout so that no hostile people will even notice it during the Antichrist's worldwide reign (in the tribulation's 2nd half), before the tribulation even begins and you are still thinking about where in the wilderness to prepare your hideout, you will need to be very circumspect about who you tell about your plans. You will want to tell only those people who are completely committed to joining you in hiding in your containers during the Antichrist's worldwide reign. For if you get any other people involved in knowing before the Antichrist's worldwide reign where your hideout is located, during the Antichrist's worldwide reign those same people could be captured by the Antichrist's police or soldiers and under torture or interrogation drugs tell them the location of your hideout. Or those same people, even if they are not captured, could start to get very hungry during the Antichrist's worldwide reign, and so could decide to go out to your hideout and demand to be fed with your supplies, even though you didn't store up enough for them, because before the tribulation they had said that they definitely weren't going to join you in your hideout.

 

Another thing to remember is that even before the Antichrist's worldwide reign, even when communicating with those who are completely committed to joining you in your hideout during the Antichrist's worldwide reign, you must never refer to the location of your hideout over the internet or over a cell phone, smartphone, or landline phone, or even in your car or home, or in any (e.g.) workplace, supermarket, or restaurant equipped with surveillance cameras and microphones, as all of these could currently be tapped and recorded by intelligence or law enforcement agencies, and their surveillance records could later be searched by the Antichrist's police or soldiers to determine the location of your hideout. For the same reason, you mustn't have any device with a GPS chip (such as a cell phone, smartphone, tablet computer, laptop computer, OnStar, LoJack, Garmin, TomTom, etc.) with you when you are out at your hideout, as the GPS chip could be secretly pinged remotely in order to determine your hideout's location. You will also need to have your car, shoes, clothing, and all supplies intended for your hideout electronically swept for any GPS chips covertly placed in them by intelligence or law enforcement agencies.

 

More generally, during the tribulation, as now, whenever you want to keep your cell phone or smartphone with you, but at the same time want to avoid having your movements tracked through it, wrap it in a small towel like a wash cloth, or place it in a small box like a cigar box, and then wrap the towel or box completely with aluminum foil, so that no phone signals can reach the phone. To make sure that there are no tiny gaps or tears in the foil through which signals can enter, once the phone is in the foil-wrapped towel or box, call it from another phone and see if it rings. If it does, hang up, wrap the towel or box with a 2nd layer of foil and call again. If the phone doesn't ring, that means that no signals can reach it, and so your movements can't be tracked through it.

 

And when you make your final trip out to your hideout, when you will begin hiding there during the Antichrist's worldwide reign, you will need to abandon your car miles away from your hideout and walk the rest of the way, as otherwise your car could catch the attention of any passing hostile people or patrolling drone aircraft. And even if you abandon your car miles away from you hideout, you will still want to camouflage it with brush to avoid it being seen and starting a general search of the area. Or, if there is not enough brush with which to camouflage it, you can let the air out of one of its tires which is visible from the road, so that people passing on the road will think that your car was left there because it got a flat tire.

 

Some people think that everyone in the cities will try to go out into the wilderness during the tribulation. But that may not be the case, for almost all people in the cities don't have hunting/fishing and other wilderness survival skills, and won't know of any well-stocked hideouts in the wilderness, and so they won't think that there is any food out there, or that they will be able to construct any decent shelter out there. They will think of the wilderness as being only barren ground and brush, rocks, trees, and mountains, and so they will stay in the cities where they have shelter and some chance of finding food. And if the cities come under martial law, they could become the safest places to be, as the military could bring order to them and supply them with emergency food and water.

 

But martial law will cut both ways in that once the Antichrist takes over everything (Revelation 13:7-18), the cities could become, in effect, huge military prisons, where people will have to receive the Antichrist's mark on their right hand or forehead if they want to buy any food (Revelation 13:16-17). And everyone will have to worship Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-10, Revelation 12:9) and a speaking image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15) if they don't want to be beheaded (Revelation 20:4). Believers trapped in the cities must be willing to be beheaded, for if they go ahead and take the mark and worship Lucifer and the Antichrist and his image, they will ultimately lose their salvation and suffer eternally in fire and brimstone (Revelation 14:9-14).

 

Believers shouldn't assume that they will necessarily be able to stand up well under the hunger (and possibly torture) and beheading which will be imposed on believers trapped in the cities during the Antichrist's worldwide reign. Many believers could eventually give in and take the mark when their hunger and the hunger of their crying little ones reaches a certain point (Isaiah 8:21-22). And they could give in and worship Lucifer and the Antichrist and his image when they are confronted with they and their little ones being tortured and beheaded if they don't do those things. It will be much, much better for believers to avoid these horrors by fleeing into prepared hiding places in the wilderness right before the Antichrist's 3.5-year worldwide reign of terror begins (Revelation 12:6, Matthew 24:15-16).

 

"A prudent man foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself..." (Proverbs 22:3, Proverbs 27:12, Proverbs 28:28, Proverbs 28:12b).

 

InSeasonOut said in post 8:

 

When God opens the first seal, unleashing the Antichrist, bringing war and famine, - thats the wrath of God . . .

 

Regarding the 1st seal's horseman, on the white horse (Revelation 6:1-2), that could represent the gospel of Jesus (not Jesus physically: Acts 3:21) going forth to all nations and victoriously saving souls. For Jesus is the rider on the white horse seen later in Revelation 19:11,13 (cf. John 1:1,14), and his gospel will be preached to all nations during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:14, Revelation 14:6). The bow (Revelation 6:2) is a weapon that is able to affect things far away, just as the gospel is able to affect things far away from where it began (Luke 24:47).

 

The tribulation's first 5 seals (Revelation 6:1-11) won't be God's wrath or judgment, for after the first 4 seals, the martyrs of the 5th seal ask God when he is going to bring his judgment against the world (Revelation 6:10). And the killing of even more martyrs, which the 5th seal foretells will happen sometime after the 5th seal (Revelation 6:11), won't be God's wrath against those martyrs. So Jesus' unsealing of the seals (Revelation 6), the tribulation's first stage, doesn't mean the events unsealed will be God's wrath, but that they will be permitted by God to happen at that time.

 

InSeasonOut said in post 8:

Paul mainly has all the doctrines for Christians in the "church age"

 

Note that there is no such thing as the church age, for the church will continue in the world throughout all ages (Ephesians 3:21, John 17:15). For just as the church will continue in the world throughout the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and then throughout the subsequent millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), so the church will then continue forever on the new earth (Revelation 21:1 to 22:5).

 

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InSeasonOut said in post 9:

 

Thats works salvation.

 

Initial salvation is by grace through faith without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). But other passages show that initially saved people must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law) if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For believers must continue to do righteous deeds if they are to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there is no assurance believers will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

 

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InSeasonOut said in post 13:

 

i don;t recommend fighting the "new world order"

 

Indeed, not physically (2 Corinthians 10:3-5, Ephesians 6:12-18). And that would be futile anyway. For Daniel 12:7b means that at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will come to a church which has been completely defeated physically by the Antichrist. For during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign, he will be allowed to make war against the church and to overcome it physically in every nation (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). It is only when the Antichrist has completely broken all the physical power of the church that the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will end (Daniel 12:7b), and Jesus' 2nd coming will immediately occur, at which time he will physically resurrect and rapture (gather together) the church (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). At his 2nd coming, Jesus will tread the winepress of God's wrath alone (Isaiah 63:3, Revelation 19:15-21), and so he/God will get all the glory for defeating the power of evil on the earth (Deuteronomy 32:39-43), for he/God won't share this glory with the church (cf. Isaiah 42:8-14, Isaiah 26:18).

 

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Under the Old Covenant, murder was forbidden (Deuteronomy 5:17), but killing in a war commanded by God was required (1 Samuel 15:3).

 

But under the New Covenant, which Christians are under (Matthew 26:28, Jeremiah 31:31), Christians are commanded to never harm anyone, even in self-defense (Matthew 5:39, Matthew 26:52). They are to be as harmless as doves (Matthew 10:16c). For Christians are commanded to love even their enemies (Matthew 5:44), and this means they must do them no harm (Romans 13:10a, Matthew 7:12).

 

It is the meek who will inherit the earth (Matthew 5:5, Psalms 37:11).

 

Christians don't employ physical weapons or any other violence against people (2 Corinthians 10:3-5, Ephesians 6:12-18). Instead, Jesus at his first coming set the example for what believers are to do when they are physically attacked by people (1 Peter 2:19-23). They are to go meekly like sheep to the slaughter (Romans 8:36), just like Jesus did (Isaiah 53:7). Obedient believers don't fear death (Hebrews 2:15), and don't love their lives unto death (Revelation 12:11b), but hate their lives in this world, so that they might retain eternal life (John 12:25, Mark 8:34-38). For obedient believers know that death is no loss for them, but gain (Philippians 1:21), as it brings their still-conscious souls into heaven to be with Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:8), which is far better than remaining in this world (Philippians 1:23).

 
During the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, believers (not in hiding) will have to face martyrdom with patience and faith to the end (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13), just as believers have always had to spiritually overcome in the face of martyrdom (e.g. Revelation 2:10-11).

[Bible2]

Serving said in post 16:

 

Of course there is a difference, there is no literal "Antichrist" is the difference . . .

 

Any person is an antichrist who denies Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ (1 John 2:22), or who denies Jesus is the human/divine Son of God (1 John 2:22b), or who denies Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7). The spirit of antichrist which will animate the future Antichrist has been working since the 1st century AD (1 John 4:3; 2 Thessalonians 2:7a), animating many antichrists since that time (2 John 1:7).

 

The existence of many antichrists (1 John 2:18) doesn't contradict there will be an individual man (2 Thessalonians 2:3,4,9, Revelation 13:4-18) who is commonly called the Antichrist, just as on the side of good, the existence of many sons of God (John 1:12) doesn't contradict there is an individual man (Jesus Christ of Nazareth) who is the Son of God (John 20:31).

 

Also, the idea of the individual-man Antichrist doesn't have to be explicitly referred to in scripture as "the Antichrist" in order for it to be true and supported by scripture, just as, for example, the idea of the Trinity doesn't have to be explicitly referred to in scripture as "the Trinity" in order for it to be true and supported by scripture (e.g. Matthew 28:19, John 1:1,14, Acts 5:3-4).

 

The man commonly called the Antichrist will be the fulfillment of the individual "man of sin" (2 Thessalonians 2:3) who will sit (at least one time) in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). He will fulfill the individual "man" aspect of the "beast" who will come (Revelation 13:18) and bring the world into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and himself (Revelation 13:4,8, Revelation 12:9). He will rule the earth for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:5-10, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7), and will have a miracle-working False Prophet (Revelation 19:20, Revelation 16:13), who by amazing, Satanic miracles (2 Thessalonians 2:9b), such as calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13), will deceive the world into worshipping a speaking (possibly an android) image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15), and receiving a mark of the Antichrist's name or gematrial name-number (666) on their right hand or forehead (Revelation 13:16-18). The Antichrist and his False Prophet will ultimately be cast into the lake of fire at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:20), while at that time Satan will be bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3).

 

The idea of a future, individual-man Antichrist was correctly recognized in the scriptures by the church from early on. Irenaeus (born c. 140 AD) used the term: "speaking of Antichrist, [Paul] says, 'who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped'" (Against Heresies 3:6:5; 2 Thessalonians 2:4); "...by means of the events which shall occur in the time of Antichrist is it shown that he, being an apostate and a robber, is anxious to be adored as God" (Against Heresies 5:25:1; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36, Revelation 13:8); "...when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem" (Against Heresies 5:30:4b; Revelation 13:5; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7); "...the number of the name of the beast ... the name of Antichrist" (Against Heresies 5:30:1; Revelation 13:17c-18).

 

The gematrial numerical values of the letters in the Antichrist's personal name will add up to six hundred and sixty-six (Revelation 13:17c-18).

 

Serving said in post 16:

 

The wrath of God comes directly after the set period of tribulation of the saints which lasts 3 1/2 years which is counted among the 2300 days . . .

 

In Daniel 8:14, the original Hebrew words (ereb, H6153; and boqer, H1242) translated as the single word "days", mean "evenings" and "mornings" (cf. Daniel 8:26) in reference to the evening and morning lamb sacrifices of the Mosaic law (Exodus 29:38-42). So the 2,300 "evenings" and "mornings" might actually be only 1,150 days. These days could have been fulfilled in ancient times, in the time of Antiochus IV. And Daniel 8:14b could refer to the cleansing of the temple under Judas Maccabeus.