Dear friends in Christ....

[Guest racer]

astralis,

Let's move it back over to the "canon" thread, okay?

[Guest astralis]

Racer,

Canon thread it is then.

[angels4u]

Do you guys really think we have to help God in order to be worthy of going to heaven?

Isn't it enough that Jesus died for our sins?

How big of a God do we serve?

Love, Angels :butbut:

[Guest racer]

angels,

I believe that I have to stay true to God in my heart.  When I let myself be overcome by human emotions such as anger, spite, envy, arrogance, etc . . . I'm not remaining true to Him in my heart.  He knows my heart, I'm not saying I can not stumble and still go to heave, I'm saying that there is a line I can cross that if I do not reconcile my heart with Him, my soul is in danger.

[Guest astralis]

Yes!  

[OrthodoxCatholic]

Angels:

God's salvation plan is a covenant.  Unfortunately,  Evangelicals (and a lot of Catholics as well) have absolutely no understanding of what a covenant is and how it works.

A covenant is a relationship in which one gives oneself to another.  Think marriage. (Religous leaders of two centuries ago used to refer to the covenant of marriage).  In a covenant relationship, there are terms.  If you would like to see how the terms of covenant are laid out, go to Deut 28 and study the covenant made between God and Israel when He gave Himself to them as a nation.

Notice that there are blessings for obedience and cursings for disobedience.  There is no such thing as an "unconditional covenant" (you may hear some radio preachers use this term -- it is a total fiction).  Covenants have terms to them.  This is why marriage can be severed by adultery.   That breaks the covenant and severs the relationship.

Our salvation is a covenant relationship.  This particular relationship is defined in terms of family.  We see this from the very beginning of Scripture where Adam is called "the son of God" (Luke 3:38).   Sonship is a familial term.

Believers are also termed as sons and daughers.  We are adopted into the family by the free grace of God through the Cross work of Christ Jesus, our Elder Brother.  He is the Head of the New Covenant and the Last Adam (1 Corin. 15:45).

As children of God, we have all the rights and priviledges of children, but we also have responsibilities.  In other words, there are blessings which come by keeping the covenant with God, and there are curses which come by not keeping the covenant. When we break the family rules (sin), we distance ourself from God.  If we commit certain sins, which the Church calls "mortal" sins, we are like the Prodigal Son.  We are no longer in the Father's household and are severed from Him until we repent.

Now, suppose the Prodigal had actually died in the "far country" of sin.  Would he have recieved the inheritance which was still waiting at home for him?  Of course not.  

We have an inheritance as God's children.  That inheritance is eternal life (Matt. 19:29).  In this life, the Holy Spirit is called the "earnest of the inheritance".  (Eph. 1).  He is the downpayment, so to speak, which promises the FULL AMOUNT IF WE REMAIN FAITHFUL.

You see, God uses earthly realities to teach spiritual truths.  The reality of the earthly family is that children who dishonor their families are disinherited (just go to some pagan country and you will see this in action when the pagan child converts to Christianity).  Faithful children receive the inheritance set aside for them.

This is why the idea of "once saved -- always saved" is a myth, and a dangerous one at that.  It teaches people that they can live any way they want and still expect Heaven.  This is what happened in Luther's Germany.  The peasants there, once they understood what Luther was teaching them, turned Germany into a cesspool of immorality.  But why not?  After all, it was Luther himself who said of justification that he could "fornicate 100 times in a day and still be justified before God".

Yeah, right!!!

Bottom line:  Obedient children receive the inheritance which is laid up for them.  Disobedient children do not.  This is how the inheritance of eternal life works also.  If we keep God's familial covenant Law (which is the Law of Love) by doing good, as God does good to all mankind, then we can expect to recieve the inheritance.  If we leave the household of God for sin, and do not repent and come back to obedience, we will be disinherited at the Judgement Seat of Christ.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

[Guest Levi]

God bless the pope...and Jerry Falwell!

[angels4u]

Can I ask you something, when do you think you have arrived with your good works? For me, because I love Jesus where He saved me from , I want to live a life pleasing to Him.

Your works will never bring you to heaven, but faith in Jesus will.

Its the only way.

Angels

[OrthodoxCatholic]

Angels --

You didn't understand a word I said, did you?

Which to me means that you either ran to your computer to fire off a knee jerk response without really PONDERING what I said

OR

I spoke way over your head and where you are at theologically.

I have not "arrived" with good works.  I have entered into a covenant relationship with the family of God here on earth, which is the Church of the Living God.  And just like one of my children (I have 6)  I am in the process of growing into the fullness of the image of God.   This is what Adam and Eve were called to do.  This is what all human beings are called to.  We are to become like our Father in Heaven.   That is what being a child is all about.  Children are like their parents.

One does not grow into the fullness of the image of God by sitting around that thinking nice thoughts about Jesus and how He died on the Cross for our sins.  That is the Protestant idea of justification.  That is not the Biblical idea, however.  We become like our Father when WE ACT LIKE OUR FATHER:

Mt 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Do you notice that Jesus teaches us that being children of the heavenly Father involves what we DO (works).  It involves ACTING LIKE OUR FATHER.  We copy what He does in acts of doing good, especially to those who hate us.  We don't just sit around and have "faith alone".  That was Luther's heretical idea, unwarranted by Scripture.

Lu 6:36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

Again, our Lord tells us to DO SOMETHING....to be merciful.  You don't show mercy by sitting around thinking nice thoughts about people.  You show mercy by doing works of mercy to those who hate you, and by feeding the hungry, clothing the poor,  and visiting the sick.

Joh 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

Oh, here's another good verse.  People become sons of the wicked one BY DOING HIS WORKS!!  Isn't that interesting!  Therefore, the parallel to this is that we are sons of the Father by our works which are of the Father.

And ultimately, it is all by grace.  Scott Hahn, a convert to the Catholic Faith from Protestantism, makes this observation:

"I was walking around my block one day and noticed a man trying to mow the lawn.    There was a little boy pushing a toy mower with him and trying to mow with the father.  It was clear that this was causing problems for the man.

When I came around a second time, the man had solved the problem.  In one arm he had the little boy, who had his little hands on the mower along with dad's hands, and both were pushing the mower together.

Now the little boy would have said "I am mowing the grass".   And the man would have said "I am loving my son.

This is a good picture of how we do our good works.  It is ultimately our heavenly Father's hands upon our lives which make any actions we do to happen.  If He did not control our lives, we could no more do good works for Him than that little boy could push that big mower.  But in like manner,  just as the little boy could turn and say "Daddy, let go of me, I don't want to do this any more."  so also we can shake free from our heavenly Father's grip and go our own way.  We still have free will, which is part of the image of God which we bear.

Try not to respond so fast to this.  Think on what I have said in this and my first post.  

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

[Guest racer]

OrthodoxCatholic said:  

And ultimately, it is all by grace.  Scott Hahn, a convert to the Catholic Faith from Protestantism, makes this observation:

Argggghh! What'd I tell ya folks?  RCs love to spring Scott Hahn on us poor, indiscernable, non-RCs who are in over our heads, amateurs in apologetics, etc . . .  Too, bad they (RCs) can't seem to understand, the majority of evangelicals and non-RCs neVER-heard-of-Scott Hahn.

So, he's an ex-evangelical turned RC!  :sarcasm: In the famous words of Suzanne Sugarbaker, "Oh, big woo!"