Creation and an Old Earth - One Possibility

[SavedOnebyGrace]

21 hours ago, JohnD said:

How have you tested the knowledge and the spirit (which you perceive of as the Holy Spirit)?

1 John 4:1 says we are to test the spirits to see if they are actually from God.

Just curious, have you done so?

My first perception of the Holy Spirit or an angel from God was when I drowned.  I can't swim but my fiancee in 1971 encouraged me to wade in Big River in a Missouri state park.  While she was swimming, some people in a canoe came rowing down the river.   A wave hit the shore and swept me out to the middle of the river.  I fought to get my head above water but only briefly could.   After the second lungful of river water, I stopped struggling and settled to the bottom of the river, roughly 10 to 12 foot deep.  I can only speculate.  I know that breathing in river water hurt.  I found out later that my fiancee was hung-up on a dead tree somewhere upstream of me, struggling to break free also.  As I laid in the bottom of Big River, spread-eagle, a peace came over me as I accepted my inevitable death.  While I waited, a peace beyond description came over me.  Then, my arms and legs started to move in a crawling fashion, like a baby would, under a power not my own.  I marveled at what was happening.  I took in another lungful of river water, my third or fourth, I had lost count.  I inwardly marveled at what was happening even though I still expected to die.  After crawling about 20 feet or so, my head broke the surface of the river.  I laid on the sandy shore and coughed up river water for some period of time.  After some indeterminate period of time, my fiancee showed up saying she was caught in a tree.  She could see I was in trouble but couldn't free herself from it to help me.  I tried to explain to her what happened.  That God or an angel had saved me after I gave up and she just hit me.  She couldn't deal with what I told her.  The funny part about this is that I saved her from suicide some time later.  She spent about three weeks in the psychiatric ward at Barnes Hospital in St. Louis.  We broke up some time after her release.  She didn't understand what I went through so I kept in all to myself.

I had drowning nightmares for years.  After the breakup, my college grades plummeted.  The stress was unbearable without alcohol.  I tried to make sense of why God saved me but couldn't.  The answer was not in my Douay-Rheims Bible.  I started investigation other religions but found them all wanting.  So God took a backseat in my life.  I was basically an agnostic.

Fast forward 10 years.  I got married to another woman in another state who was a lapse Southern Baptist who had been married twice before.  A good portion of my family boycotted our wedding because she was not Roman Catholic.  During our first year of marriage, she started attending a "full Gospel" church.  I did not go to any church.  We were on a long weekend holiday with her sister and her husband at Silver Dollar City.  Everybody but me decided to go into a shop with a strong odor of potpourri.  So instead, I stepped in the shop next door that I thought was a leather shop.  It was, but it was also a shop that sold black powder guns.  (I had no interest in guns at that time.) 

So from a distance of about 20 feet, I heard a customer ask the man behind the counter about the beautiful woodworking on a rifle he was holding.  It was the first rifle he had ever built.  So the customer asked, how did he (the man behind the counter) get there.  He then gave his testimony and I was physically frozen in place, and my ears started to burn.  The man had been a biker with an outlaw biker gang.  He had done so much illegal drugs that his body was breaking down.  He was in an ER ready to die.  As his heart stopped, he was immediately in Hell.  God spoke to him saying repent and live, and he said no and was shocked back to life.  He died again and God spoke to him to repent and live.  He said no but was shocked back to life.  After the third time he was shocked back to life, the ER doctor and nurses told him to do what the voice said.  You see, they heard the voice too.  He then repented and his life was spared.  From the on, he did whatever God led him to do.  He became somewhat of a local celebrity and was invited to speak at some denominational churches.  They didn't always like what he said because he never strayed from God's word.

I knew when I heard him that he had heard from God.  He and I never spoke.  As I left the shop, I asked my wife if my ears looked burnt.  She said they looked okay.  Eventually, I secretly read her Dake KJV Study Bible and decided to go to church with her.  I was soon baptized in that church, fully submerged.  My feet went out from under me but I was not nervous.  I was at peace.  God brought me home.

I trust God for all the revelation He has given me, and all the correction He has given me over the years.  The Gap Principle has been with me from the start to reconcile my scientific nature and the Bible.  God has recently shown me the error in my Calvinistic theology.  If I'm wrong about anything else, I trust God will correct me, in Jesus name.

[Kan]

A correct view of creation tells us that nothing comes into existence without the Word of God. Jesus commands things and they are done, but without that command or word, nothing happens and nothing can be. Psalms 33:9 "For He spake, and it was done, He commanded and it stood fast" And verse 6, "By the word of the Lord were the heavens made..."

In the Genesis story, we cannot assume that anything came into existence, or was in existence until the Lord made a command. It is interesting that the Lord made 10 commands in creation, and on Mt Sinai, He spoke and wrote ten commands. As in the material world, so in the spiritual. The universe is built and upheld by righteousness and wisdom.

On the first day, the light was commanded to shine, not into the darkness, but out of it. So in salvation, God does not shine into our hearts, but as Paul said "has shined in our hearts." Inside the darkness, God commands His light to shine, outward to others.

What follows after the light, is the fashioning of material which we can see and perceive. But before that, the earth is void and without form, it is intangible to us. God may have intended the world to exist in the very first command of light, and in essence it existed by promise, but as far as we are concerned it does not appear until the third day. (Even so we don't see the earth until the fourth day when God made lights to light the earth. So the earth was dressed with plants in the dark, before the sun and moon were made.)

This tells us that when God intends to do something, we might as well count it as done, because His command cannot fail. We may not see any evidence of a new life in Christ, but by faith we already have the things hoped for. When the Bible declares us to be reconciled by Christ, we are reconciled, regardless of our feelings, perceptions and evidence about it.

[ezekiel]

I would think that God being the same now as before that created old earth will create the New Heaven and Earth in the same manner. That being said bringing  very heavy items into the solar system to design the new and destroy the old.

Ezekiel 40:3

³ And he brought me thither, and, behold, there was a man, whose appearance was like the appearance of brass, with a line of flax in his hand, and a measuring reed; and he stood in the gate.

God knowing when, will destroy the old

Revelation 11:19

And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

 

And will put everyone in the place He chooses.

 

Revelation 14:15

And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

 

 

[SavedOnebyGrace]

On ‎12‎/‎27‎/‎2015 at 4:25 AM, Kan said:

You have given a very clear answer, and I'm sorry if I did not take more notice of what you posted earlier. 

It is puzzling, because it says that "the earth was without form and void." Even so, we don't see the earth "appear" until the third day. The texts do allow an expanded thought, but what do the rest of the scriptures allow on that? Could it be that the earth was not materialized until the third day?

I believe "the waters" and the "face of the deep" are supernatural forms of power that cradle a new creation. For instance we read in the Psalms about the waters that be above the heavens (stars). But other people think that they are standard H2O. ? I can't allow an earth to be in existence before the spoken word on the first day. But that's just my view.

If we have the earth existing before this six day period, then when was it made? Chapter 2 verses 1 and 2, suggest the whole lot was made in six days. "...all His work..."

The earth was without form and void because of God's judgment.  In verse 1:1 states that God created the heavens and the earth.  God did not originally create the universe in a chaotic state.  When God creates, it is perfect.  Chaos reflects judgment.  This judgment is outside of the six days of restoration (recreation) that is referred to starting in verse 1:3.

The waters and face of the deep are describing the planet in a state of judgment.

God's restoration work was done in 6 - 24 hour days.

[SavedOnebyGrace]

On ‎12‎/‎28‎/‎2015 at 8:06 PM, Kan said:

A correct view of creation tells us that nothing comes into existence without the Word of God. Jesus commands things and they are done, but without that command or word, nothing happens and nothing can be. Psalms 33:9 "For He spake, and it was done, He commanded and it stood fast" And verse 6, "By the word of the Lord were the heavens made..."

In the Genesis story, we cannot assume that anything came into existence, or was in existence until the Lord made a command. It is interesting that the Lord made 10 commands in creation, and on Mt Sinai, He spoke and wrote ten commands. As in the material world, so in the spiritual. The universe is built and upheld by righteousness and wisdom.

On the first day, the light was commanded to shine, not into the darkness, but out of it. So in salvation, God does not shine into our hearts, but as Paul said "has shined in our hearts." Inside the darkness, God commands His light to shine, outward to others.

What follows after the light, is the fashioning of material which we can see and perceive. But before that, the earth is void and without form, it is intangible to us. God may have intended the world to exist in the very first command of light, and in essence it existed by promise, but as far as we are concerned it does not appear until the third day. (Even so we don't see the earth until the fourth day when God made lights to light the earth. So the earth was dressed with plants in the dark, before the sun and moon were made.)

This tells us that when God intends to do something, we might as well count it as done, because His command cannot fail. We may not see any evidence of a new life in Christ, but by faith we already have the things hoped for. When the Bible declares us to be reconciled by Christ, we are reconciled, regardless of our feelings, perceptions and evidence about it.

God's first creative words are given in verse 3.  Yet we are told by Moses that God created the heavens and the earth in verse 1.  Obviously verse 1 is considered separate from verse 3, especially when you take in the content of verse 2 and the ramifications it states.  Consider:

Isaiah 42:5  Thus says God, the LORD, who created the heavens and stretched them out, who spread out the earth and what comes from it, who gives breath to the people on it and spirit to those who walk in it:  [ESV]

The underlined portion of Isaiah 42:5 does not fit the description in Genesis 1:3, but fits well within Genesis 1:1 without straining Biblical interpretation or inerrancy.  There are many passages like this including some in Job, which predates the Moses account given in the Torah.  The second part of this verse does fit verse 3.  Why didn't God explain the restoration of earth beginning in verse 3 for all of us to understand?  The restoration of earth and the reason for the coming Messiah are what's really important here.  That's why God inspired Moses to write it in this fashion.  As a person grows in the Lord, hidden truths will be revealed, BUT they are not essential knowledge for the Jews first, and the Gentiles to come.  Jewish Rabbis did write about the Gap Principle centuries before the time of the Christ.

. 

[Kan]

18 hours ago, ezekiel said:

I would think that God being the same now as before that created old earth will create the New Heaven and Earth in the same manner. That being said bringing  very heavy items into the solar system to design the new and destroy the old.

Ezekiel 40:3

³ And he brought me thither, and, behold, there was a man, whose appearance was like the appearance of brass, with a line of flax in his hand, and a measuring reed; and he stood in the gate.

God knowing when, will destroy the old

Revelation 11:19

And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

 

And will put everyone in the place He chooses.

 

Revelation 14:15

And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

 

 

Yes, and God does not have to re create the earth by speaking the words of creation again, because it will be done by the same word which was spoken in the beginning. The word of God cannot fail to accomplish its original purpose, because it is living, contains the thoughts of God, and is everlasting.

That same word of creation spoken in the beginning has maintained God's perfect will in this earth ever since the beginning. There is nothing that can transpire to interrupt its power, and it is prepared for any event any time, and makes the right provisions. Everything works to glorify God in the end, every action and consequence is eventually, incorporated to serve God's ultimate will. II Peter 3:5-7, It caused the flood on the earth, and it preserves the earth for its second major destruction. And at the same time today it saves people, it makes spiritual and physical provisions, so that "All things work together for good to them that love the Lord."

Matthew 24:35, Jesus said "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away." Spoken like the true Creator.

[Kan]

14 hours ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

The earth was without form and void because of God's judgment.  In verse 1:1 states that God created the heavens and the earth.  God did not originally create the universe in a chaotic state.  When God creates, it is perfect.  Chaos reflects judgment.  This judgment is outside of the six days of restoration (recreation) that is referred to starting in verse 1:3.

The waters and face of the deep are describing the planet in a state of judgment.

God's restoration work was done in 6 - 24 hour days.

Yes, the Bible equates the pre creation state as unsuitable for life and the purpose of the earth. And yes, a lifeless situation often occurs after a judgement, but does the Bible or any of its writers make a remark about this, -  being Satan's pre creation world and its destruction by a flood? 

 

[Kan]

5 hours ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

God's first creative words are given in verse 3.  Yet we are told by Moses that God created the heavens and the earth in verse 1.  Obviously verse 1 is considered separate from verse 3, especially when you take in the content of verse 2 and the ramifications it states.  Consider:

Isaiah 42:5  Thus says God, the LORD, who created the heavens and stretched them out, who spread out the earth and what comes from it, who gives breath to the people on it and spirit to those who walk in it:  [ESV]

The underlined portion of Isaiah 42:5 does not fit the description in Genesis 1:3, but fits well within Genesis 1:1 without straining Biblical interpretation or inerrancy.  There are many passages like this including some in Job, which predates the Moses account given in the Torah.  The second part of this verse does fit verse 3.  Why didn't God explain the restoration of earth beginning in verse 3 for all of us to understand?  The restoration of earth and the reason for the coming Messiah are what's really important here.  That's why God inspired Moses to write it in this fashion.  As a person grows in the Lord, hidden truths will be revealed, BUT they are not essential knowledge for the Jews first, and the Gentiles to come.  Jewish Rabbis did write about the Gap Principle centuries before the time of the Christ.

. 

Well, I see Isaiah 42:5 as fitting all the things God did in creation from the heavenly expanses, to the earth and it's living creatures. That would be the whole chapter.

I think the first verse in Genesis, is not necessarily a separate story, but simply an introduction. What follows immediately in verse two and onward, are sentences beginning with "And" signifying an additional detail of the first statement. As for the heavens being put into place, that occurs on the second, third and fourth day. But the "heaven" expanse is finished on the second day, and God names it so.

I understand that the passages in Job do not predate Moses' account of creation.

[SavedOnebyGrace]

11 hours ago, Kan said:

Yes, the Bible equates the pre creation state as unsuitable for life and the purpose of the earth. And yes, a lifeless situation often occurs after a judgement, but does the Bible or any of its writers make a remark about this, -  being Satan's pre creation world and its destruction by a flood? 

The Bible does speak of two floods, not one.  Hazard has provided detailed scripture references to these two floods.  I suggest you provide an adequate response to those scriptures and then we can continue from there.  Other One has also provided invaluable information that I shall not repeat here.  Since this subject is now spanning three threads, I prefer not to repeat information that is easily found.  This discussion is for Christians whose faith is strong, and not for new believers.  I've been studying this subject since I became a Christian, 33+ years ago.

[SavedOnebyGrace]

12 hours ago, Kan said:

Well, I see Isaiah 42:5 as fitting all the things God did in creation from the heavenly expanses, to the earth and it's living creatures. That would be the whole chapter.

I think the first verse in Genesis, is not necessarily a separate story, but simply an introduction. What follows immediately in verse two and onward, are sentences beginning with "And" signifying an additional detail of the first statement. As for the heavens being put into place, that occurs on the second, third and fourth day. But the "heaven" expanse is finished on the second day, and God names it so.

I understand that the passages in Job do not predate Moses' account of creation.

Gaines R. Johnson's The Bible Genesis and Geology website is a good resource.  I've read Mr. Johnson's book on a recommendation from Dr. Steven Dill, author of In The Beginnings which I've also read and recommend.  As I've said, I've been studying this issue for some time.  I am willing and open to change my beliefs if they can be proven wrong, as I was about my previous Calvinists beliefs.  Further information can be found at The Gap Theory.