Old Covenant vs New Covenant

[Ezra]

18 hours ago, thereselittleflower said:

This prohibition against images is against idols, images that were made for the express purpose to be treated as gods to worship as gods.     

Well the truth of the matter is that Mary -- "the Queen of Heaven" -- is to be treated as a goddess by Catholics, and her image pervades every Catholic Church.

[thereselittleflower]

4 minutes ago, Ezra said:

Well the truth of the matter is that Mary -- "the Queen of Heaven" -- is to be treated as a goddess by Catholics, and her image pervades every Catholic Church.

Unfortunately, it is very sad to see myths and lies like this promoted in this forum.  For it is, indeed, a lie, nothing more than an oft-repeated myth.    

She is never to be treated as a goddess.    

Catholics are not taught to treat her as a goddess.

  Please stop spreading these lies and myths, it is unbecoming of one who names the name of Christ to falsely accuse others like this.

[thereselittleflower]

4 hours ago, 1to3 said:

I don't pray to any given image, and I think in the catholic faith, as I grew up in it, the cross of Jesus for me was always a reminder symbol of what happened, and not that I was looking at the cross with the image of Christ Jesus on it and praying to the object.  Rather looking at the cross for me is a reminder and a conscious reflection of the meaning the symbol of the cross represents while i may go into my own personal praying to God within my heart.

That is exactly how it is for me Ito3 and every other christian I know, Catholic or no, who prays to God with such images before them.  I can't look at a crucifix without being reminded of what Christ suffered on the cross, without what he did for me, being brought to my attention, front and center.  The stations of the cross also are the same for me, and statues of Mary remind me of the love and tender care with which Christ was nurtured and that Christ was a helpless baby, and that I am too to become helpless as a child trusting in God.   And I am reminded of her sufferings when Jesus died, and for me this is personally meaningful, for even the woman God chose to be the mother of Christ was not spared such deep sorrow and suffering, but  suffered the loss of her son as I did mine, and I can relate to the heartbreak and deep pain she suffered.  When I see one of her statues, I am reminded of all of this.

 

[1to3]

1 hour ago, thereselittleflower said:

That is exactly how it is for me Ito3 and every other christian I know, Catholic or no, who prays to God with such images before them.  I can't look at a crucifix without being reminded of what Christ suffered on the cross, without what he did for me, being brought to my attention, front and center.  The stations of the cross also are the same for me, and statues of Mary remind me of the love and tender care with which Christ was nurtured and that Christ was a helpless baby, and that I am too to become helpless as a child trusting in God.   And I am reminded of her sufferings when Jesus died, and for me this is personally meaningful, for even the woman God chose to be the mother of Christ was not spared such deep sorrow and suffering, but  suffered the loss of her son as I did mine, and I can relate to the heartbreak and deep pain she suffered.  When I see one of her statues, I am reminded of all of this.

 

I believe you therese little flower, and I can't speak for others, but I am sure some other Catholics feel the same also concerning Christ Jesus.

Mother Mary for me somehow ( I can't really explain why) but mother Mary never was so important to me even as a child, somehow my focus was always on Christ Jesus.

However, I do know some Catholics who place mother Mary in greater or at least similar veneration as to Christ Jesus.

When I was a child, we went to different Catholic churches, one an English one called St. Raphael's, where I lived, than sometimes, my father being Hungarian would bring us to Hungarian Catholic church."our lady of Hungary" I think the church was and is called.

In that lovely  Hungarian church, a humongous placard of the virgin Mary is right up in the center of the church right over the pulpit where the mass takes place.

When I was a kid, I would examine that painting placard of the mother Mary very carefully. They painted her eyes in such a way, that no matter where you were sitting in the church, those eyes would be looking trait at you. It kind of cheeped me out in a perplexing way. Also the scent of the smelly incense creeped me out. I don't like the smell of incense.

There is no denying that some people place the mother Mary at a very high level in the catholic church.

 Having been taken out of the Catholic church at thirteen years of age and going or following along with my mother to a bible believe church, I became more knowledgeable of the Holy bible.

Its kind of funny, My german grandfather on my mothers side was a bible believing christian since his early twenties when Christ appeared to him on the cross in a dream.

So I got different insights that perhaps a regular Catholic christian would not get? 

But with my grandfather, he was a walking testimony of what Christ Jesus did in His life, He never missed an opportunity to talk about Christ Jesus to anybody.

That's how my grandfather referred to Jesus Christ as Christ Jesus,placing Messiah=Christ before the name and not after.  I do the same because I find it makes more sense that way.

 

But coming back to mother Mary, it is a big thing for many Catholics. The lady whose husband just died who I mentioned in another post, well when I went to visit her after her husband died she went to kiss the pendant on her chain necklaces, the pendant was the mother Mary. So I don't know.

I love this lady and I have and do my best to bring Christ Jesus as the focal point when I speak with her, but yeas there is an incorporation of the Mother Mary, the saints, the pope in the whole Catholic embrace of Christianity.

 

To be most frank, if it happens that the occasions comes up, I don't necessarily dislike going to  a Catholic church, I like the order in the service, I appreciate hearing the gospels red during the service(its just as good as any sermon,) because the focal point is always on Christ Jesus,  but when they say the prayer of belief, I don't speak or repeat with them in prayer fashion when they say they believe in the catholic church and the popes. And in most regular services, they don't include the hail Mary prayer.  But at the recent Catholic the funeral service,  that I attended to, they did, because in the hail Mary prayer it says pray for us sinners now and at the end of our life.

I don't pray to saints, but when I go to St, Joseph oratory, I go to the big prayer room where they have all the crutches on the wall of people who were supposedly healed by brother André  through Christ Jesus(who I do believe received his SThood?), but when and if I go, I  kneel and pray to God through Christ Jesus my Lord and Savior. (I know He is your Lord and Savior too Therese Little Flower : )

My father also used to bring us to St Joseph the oratory , and I remember as a child we would go after mass to that room and light a candle and pray . You could pray whatever you wanted, but they did have written prayers written to pray with. These prayers are diverse, included saints, or mother Mary, but yes always with Christ Jesus as I always focused on Him as the focal point of my prayers.

Am I off track now? I"ll figure that out probably after I have posted this post, and may have to re-view. ( this slow dial up since I have been living in the country, sure has helped me to learn about patience. : )

 

[thereselittleflower]

11 minutes ago, 1to3 said:

I believe you therese little flower, and I can't speak for others, but I am sure some other Catholics feel the same also concerning Christ Jesus.

Mother Mary for me somehow ( I can't really explain why) but mother Mary never was so important to me even as a child, somehow my focus was always on Christ Jesus.

However, I do know some Catholics who place mother Mary in greater or at least similar veneration as to Christ Jesus.

When I was a child, we went to different catholic churches, one and English one called St. Raphael's where I lived, than sometimes, my father being Hungarian would bring us to Hungarian catholic church."our lady of Hungary" I think the church was called.

In that lovely  Hungarian church, a humongous placard of the virgin Mary is right up in the center of the church right over the pulpit where the mass takes place.

When I was a kid, I would examine that painting placard of the mother Mary very carefully. They painted her eyes in such a way, that no matter where you were sitting in the church, those eyes would be looking trait at you. It kind of cheeped me out. Also the scent of the smelly incense creeped me out. I don't like the smell of incense.

There is no denying that some people place the mother Mary at a very high level in the catholic church.

 Having been taken out of the catholic church at thirteen years of age and going or following along with my mother to a bible believe church, I was became more knowledgeable of the Holy bible.

Its kind of funny, My grandfather on my mothers side was a bible believing christian since his early twenties when Christ appeared to him on the cross in a dream.

So I got different insights that perhaps a regular catholic would not get? 

But with my grandfather, he was a walking testimony of what Christ Jesus did in His life, He never missed an opportunity to talk about Christ Jesus to anybody.

That how my grandfather referred to Jesus Christ as Christ Jesus,placing Messiah=Christ before the name and not after.  I do the same because I find it makes more sense that way.

 

But coming back to mother Mary, it is a big thing for many Catholics. The lady whose husband just died who I mentioned in another post, well when i went to visit her after her husband died she went to kiss the pendant of her chain necklaces, the pendant was the mother Mary. So I don't know.

I love this lady and I have and do my best to bring Christ Jesus as the focal point when I speak with her, but yeas there is an incorporation of the Mother Mary, the saints, the pope in the whole Catholic embrace of Christianity.

 

To be most frank, if it happens that the occasions comes up, I don't necessarily dislike going to  a Catholic church, I like the order in the service, I appreciate hearing the gospels red during the service(its just as good as a sermon,) because the focal point is always on Christ Jesus,  but when they say the prayer of belief, I don't speak or repeat with them in prayer fashion when they say they believe in the catholic church and the popes. And in most regular services, they don't include the hail Mary prayer.  But at the recent Catholic the funeral service,  that I attended to they did, because in the hail Mary prayer it says pray for us sinners now and at the end of our life.

I don't pray to saints, but when I go to St, Joseph oratory, I go to the big prayer room where they have all the crutches on the wall of people who were supposedly healed by brother André (who I do believe received his SThood?), but when and if I go, I  kneel and pray to God through Christ Jesus my Lord and Savior. (I know He is your Lord and Savior too Therese Little Flower).

My father also used to bring us to St Joseph the oratory , and I remember as a child we wouod go after mass to that room and light a candle and pray . You could pray whatever you wanted, but they did have written prayers written to pray with. These prayers are diverse, included saints, or mother Mary, but yes always with Christ Jesus as I always focused on Him as the focal point of my prayers.

Am I off track now? I"ll figure that out probably after I have posted this post, and may have to re-view. ( this slow dial up since I have been living in the country, sure has helped me to learn about patience. : )

 

I really appreciate you sharing this.   I would so love to visit St Joseph Oratory.    When I learned of Brother André I was deeply moved by his story and how God used such a humble, simple man with such a simple faith like a child's.

As far as what the lady who you visited was doing,  she was simply showing a child like love for Jesus' mother.  If you were to ask her how much she loves jesus, I am sure you would be pleased with the answer.

 

 

 

[Ezra]

5 hours ago, thereselittleflower said:

 Please stop spreading these lies and myths, it is unbecoming of one who names the name of Christ to falsely accuse others like this.

How can you call the veneration of Mary "myths and lies and false accusations" when it is well-documented? Please note that there is a hymn to Mary (and normally hymns are only sung to God and to Christ):

The Salve Regina, also known as the Hail Holy Queen, is a Marian hymn and one of four Marian antiphons sung at different seasons within the Christian liturgical calendar of the Catholic Church. The Salve Regina is traditionally sung at Compline in the time from the Saturday before Trinity Sunday until the Friday before the first Sunday of Advent. The Hail Holy Queen is also the final prayer of the Rosary.

         Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy,

Hail, our life, our sweetness and our hope.

To thee do we cry,

Poor banished children of Eve;

To thee do we send up our sighs,

Mourning and weeping in this valley of tears.

Turn then, most gracious advocate,

Thine eyes of mercy toward us;

And after this our exile,

Show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus.

O clement, O loving,

O sweet Virgin Mary.

Pray for us, O holy Mother of God,

that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ, thy Son.

[thereselittleflower]

      

3 hours ago, Ezra said:

      How can you call the veneration of Mary "myths and lies and false accusations" when it is well-documented? Please note that there is a hymn to Mary (and normally hymns are only sung to God and to Christ):

The Salve Regina, also known as the Hail Holy Queen, is a Marian hymn and one of four Marian antiphons sung at different seasons within the Christian liturgical calendar of the Catholic Church. The Salve Regina is traditionally sung at Compline in the time from the Saturday before Trinity Sunday until the Friday before the first Sunday of Advent. The Hail Holy Queen is also the final prayer of the Rosary.

         Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy,

 

Hail, our life, our sweetness and our hope.

 

To thee do we cry,

 

Poor banished children of Eve;

 

To thee do we send up our sighs,

 

Mourning and weeping in this valley of tears.

 

Turn then, most gracious advocate,

 

Thine eyes of mercy toward us;

 

And after this our exile,

 

Show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus.

 

O clement, O loving,

 

O sweet Virgin Mary.

 

Pray for us, O holy Mother of God,

 

that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ, thy Son.

 

 

Ezra, i don't know what else to tell you other than the fact that in failing to understand what others mean by the words they use, especially after being told time and time again of this failure to understand,  the true error here is in insisting on making false accusations rather than treating sisters and brothers in Christ with christian charity.

I have no need to justify something that is not done.   Catholics do not worship Mary or treat her as a goddess.     

The prayer you quoted above does not worship Mary or treat her as a goddess.

Again, I am asking you, for the benefit of your own soul and for your Catholic brothers and sisters in Christ, to stop bearing false witness against your neighbor.

 

 

[1to3]

After reading your reply to me Therese little flower.

I did look up brother André and his life, I did not even know that much about him until you wrote more about him.

So last evening, I went and googled his name.

https://www.saint-joseph.org/en/sanctuary/saint-brother-andre

Yes he was most likely a simple man, who survived life by joining into the Catholic priesthood.

Only God truly knows our hearts and He will be the ultimate judge.

But reading that brother André prayed to St. Joseph for healings if indeed he did, and did not ask Christ Jesus himself, than what he was doing

is not biblically scriptural.

 

And I must say, by writing what I wrote about having been born into a Catholic family with some Catholic relatives and some Protestant relatives does not mean I think its right to pray to 'saints' , or mother Mary.

Christ Jesus said the only way to come to the Father was to come through Christ Jesus alone.

John 4:16

“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”

Christ Jesus is our advocate who pleads our case before God. Christ Jesus alone covers our sins and heals us.( look in Isaiah 53)

No one else.

 

 I was born and come from Montréal province of Quebec Canada, a lot has changed since I was born to how things are now.

Many, many people left the Catholic church, because of newly discovered wrong doings that where happening that got uncovered.

The Catholic side of my family was on my fathers side, Most everyone on that side is deceased, the only person still alive is my aunt, my fathers sister, who married a french Canadian (who is now diseased) and she lives miles and miles away, an 8hre car drive away from Montreal. My aunt and all her four children and families are atheists.

My aunt  left the Catholic faith long ago and has become an intellectual atheist.

She was very pleasant to me and my mother,while my mother was alive but after my mother died in 2003, my aunt told me to never bring up religion with her again or anything relating to it, as it makes her blood pressure rise.

My mother was the kind of the glue that kept everyone in communication.

After she died, my brother also very much an intellectual atheist joined my aunt in telling me they did not want to have anything to do with Christianity , and if I talked about anything Christian I was not welcome.

and so family division occurred.

After my mother died, I truly felt that I fell into the twilight zone from one moment having a family to the next being estranged.

 Now I am mostly estranged from all of them . 

Its very sad. 

All I can do is pray from afar that Gods plan of Mercy and Grace come to them.

The only surviving relative that still  lives is my mothers older bother and he lives in Sweden. I only speak with him on birthdays and Christmas and Easter.

So basically, I have no family anymore to share anything with.

If something happens to me, I will be at the Mercy of perhaps some  good friends and strangers.

What I do have is My Lord and Savior Christ Jesus.

And He called Me back into His fold just a few months before my mother s untimely passing.

Christ Jesus was the One who called me back to Him, no church, just circumstances that took place that made me return to look into the word of God

myself .

 

This time , there was no turning back, My good shepherd Christ Jesus called me and showed me what I needed to give up to follow Him.

And through the guidance of the Holy Spirit of God working in me, I started to grow more and more in Him, shedding away step by step all of the secular life.

 

And it is a very lonely life, because most people around me do not  live a christian lifestyle.

 

I don't think God or His Only begotten Son Christ Jesus wanted things to be so complicated to find Him.

 

The Catholic church has to many  added-on things that one has to practice to be a true Catholic.

 

That 's not Gods agenda.

 

The Holy Bible  is simple enough for anyone to read and complex enough for greater understanding to come.

But not add-on stuff over Gods Word.

That's also what the Jews were doing they were adding- on to much stuff and putting to much intellectualism, instead of reasoning with a humble heart.

Intellectualizing to much and removing the true and simple essence and meaning of who God is going in the wrong direction.

Its going into flattering the ego over humbling the heart and trusting in God and His Word Alone.

 

 If God is so complicated, like so many religions make Him out to be,  I  can understand also why so many have turned away and have become Atheists.

 

Proverbs 3:5-6

⁵ Trust in the Lord with all your heart
    and lean not on your own understanding;
⁶ in all your ways acknowledge Him,
    and He will shall direct your paths .

 

 

[thereselittleflower]

Ito3, your words of loneliness struck deep within me, for I know the true walk with our Lord indeed becomes a lonely one.  When one is called into a deeper relationship with God, He does pull us away from our dependencies on others to learn to depend on Him alone and to love Him above all else.  It can be intensely lonely as He takes us into this desert, yet, it is in that desert that one finds the very face of God.  

God bless you my dear sister.

[Shar]

On ‎1‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 10:47 PM, Qnts2 said:

If I might try an explanation.

I had a dear friend and mentor who was a 5 point Calvinist. I found that this person in general knew more them I did. He did not try to tell me that I must be a Calvinist. But out of my respect for him, I asked him to explain Calvinism to me. I asked him dozens upon dozens of questions, until I understood Calvinism to the point where I could talk about Calvinism with Calvinists and they found no big fault with my understanding. I will say that Calvinism is a very logical system. I then went back to scripture to see if Calvinism fit well. It did fit with a lot of scripture from the logic of Calvinism, but I found various scripture verses which did not fit Calvinism. These verses which I found contrary to Calvinism actually made no real sense in light of Calvinism, so I came to the conclusion that Calvinism is very logical, but not scriptural. So in my view, Calvinism is a major Christian theology, but not all Christian theologies are entirely correct.

In the case of Easter, it is not a biblical name, and the practice is not from scripture, but the basic belief around Easter is in memory of Jesus death, so that is correct. The name, date, and practice is not from scripture. I personally do not celebrate Easter. I celebrate Passover, in light of what Jesus did in His death for sin, for those who believe.

Good post, Q.