Biblical Calculations 1. (70 X 7)

[Marilyn C]

23 hours ago, Daniel23 said:

Hi Marilyn,

Thanks for bringing up this great thread! I am passionate about Daniel, especially the "sevens" and I ask that you grant me some leeway as I can be quite opinionated and may risk sounding arrogant... But I assure you that is not the case, but rather there are certain things I can't wrap my mind around when discussing the widely accepted interpretation of sevens as weeks of years and the decree as Artaxerxes. I got into this on another post, but could you share your perspective with me on the following questions:

1. How is Artaxerxes granting permission to Nehemiah to go to Jerusalem seen as a decree to rebuild Jerusalem when most of it had already been rebuilt, as this was almost a full 100 years after the Jews returned from exile? (I understand the walls weren't built, but the decree was not to rebuild the walls it was to rebuild the city and the temple. Daniel mentions that these things would be done during the 62 sevens, but not as a reference to the decree.)

2. How can you dismiss the explicit decree of Cyrus (Ezra 1:1-4), as well as God telling Isaiah that Cyrus would be the one to say of Jerusalem, "Let it be rebuilt" (Isaiah 44:28)? 

 

Be Blessed,

 

Daniel

 

 

 

Hi Daniel23,

Good questions there bro. So let us look at God`s word together.

King Cyrus

`Thus says Cyrus king of Persia: All the kingdoms of the earth the Lord God of heaven has given me. And He has commanded me to build Him a house at Jerusalem which is in Judah.` (Ezra 1: 2)

When the foundations of the house of the Lord was laid, there came much opposition who wrote to king Cyrus saying that if the city is rebuilt then the king would not have dominion over it. (Ezra 3: 11.    4: 1 & 16) The king replied –

`Now give the command to make these men cease, that this city may NOT be built until the command by me.` (Ezra 4: 21)

 

King Artaxerxes

Then many years later king Artaxerxes, king of Persia gave Ezra a letter –

`Artaxerxes, king of kings, to Ezra the priest, a scribe of the Law of the God of heaven.....whatever is commanded by the God of heaven, let it diligently be done for the HOUSE of the the God of heaven.` (Ezra 7: 23)

 

Then 14 years after the second expedition of Ezra we read of  Nehemiah asking king Artaxerxes permission to rebuild the city of Jerusalem & its walls & gates.

`If it pleases the king, & if your servant has found favour in your sight, I ask that you send me to Judah, to the CITY of my fathers` tombs, that I may REBUILD it.......(&)

let letters be given to me for the governors of the region beyond the River, that they must permit me to pass through till I come to Judah, & a letter to Asaph the keeper of the king`s forest, that he must give me timber for the gates of the citadel which pertains to the temple, for the city wall, & for the house that I will occupy.” And the king granted them to me according to the good hand of my God upon me.` (Neh. 2: 5 – 8))  

 

This all leads us to Daniel`s prophetic word.

` Know therefore & understand, that from the going forth of the command to restore & build Jerusalem......` (Dan. 9: 25)
 

Command – Heb. `dabar,` meaning a word, a matter, decree, command, message.....

 

Thus we see that king Artaxerxes gave Nehemiah a command, a letter, a word, a message that resulted in the restoring & the building of Jerusalem.

 

BTW Isa. 44: 28 is the Lord saying what He will do.

 

Blessings, Marilyn.

 

Edited May 1, 2016 by Marilyn C

[Kan]

1 hour ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Daniel23,

Good questions there bro. So let us look at God`s word together.

King Cyrus

`Thus says Cyrus king of Persia: All the kingdoms of the earth the Lord God of heaven has given me. And He has commanded me to build Him a house at Jerusalem which is in Judah.` (Ezra 1: 2)

When the foundations of the house of the Lord was laid, there came much opposition who wrote to king Cyrus saying that if the city is rebuilt then the king would not have dominion over it. (Ezra 3: 11.    4: 1 & 16) The king replied –

`Now give the command to make these men cease, that this city may NOT be built until the command by me.` (Ezra 4: 21)

 

King Artaxerxes

Then many years later king Artaxerxes, king of Persia gave Ezra a letter –

`Artaxerxes, king of kings, to Ezra the priest, a scribe of the Law of the God of heaven.....whatever is commanded by the God of heaven, let it diligently be done for the HOUSE of the the God of heaven.` (Ezra 7: 23)

 

Then 14 years after the second expedition of Ezra we read of  Nehemiah asking king Artaxerxes permission to rebuild the city of Jerusalem & its walls & gates.

`If it pleases the king, & if your servant has found favour in your sight, I ask that you send me to Judah, to the CITY of my fathers` tombs, that I may REBUILD it.......(&)

let letters be given to me for the governors of the region beyond the River, that they must permit me to pass through till I come to Judah, & a letter to Asaph the keeper of the king`s forest, that he must give me timber for the gates of the citadel which pertains to the temple, for the city wall, & for the house that I will occupy.” And the king granted them to me according to the good hand of my God upon me.` (Neh. 2: 5 – 8))  

 

This all leads us to Daniel`s prophetic word.

` Know therefore & understand, that from the going forth of the command to restore & build Jerusalem......` (Dan. 9: 25)
 

Command – Heb. `dabar,` meaning a word, a matter, decree, command, message.....

 

Thus we see that king Artaxerxes gave Nehemiah a command, a letter, a word, a message that resulted in the restoring & the building of Jerusalem.

 

BTW Isa. 44: 28 is the Lord saying what He will do.

 

Blessings, Marilyn.

 

That is probably the clearest answer I have ever read on that point. I studied Ezra and found the same, but I did not know about the confirmation by Nehemiah. Thank you.

[Daniel23]

Marilyn,

Please don't think I am being obnoxious here when I say what I am about to say, because I assure you that I am not. As I read through your post I had the uneasy feeling that you are under a veil of confusion. That for whatever reason, you cannot read it as it is, but have some type of block that is preventing you from being able to do so. Again, I don't mean this as anything negative to you, (and please try to hear me on this) but rather Satan has confused the words for you so you can't read them. Maybe I am wrong, but I will give you some examples of what I am talking about:

3 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

When the foundations of the house of the Lord was laid, there came much opposition who wrote to king Cyrus saying that if the city is rebuilt then the king would not have dominion over it. (Ezra 3: 11.    4: 1 & 16) The king replied –

`Now give the command to make these men cease, that this city may NOT be built until the command by me.` (Ezra 4: 21)

 

The first part of your statement is accurate, though I would add that the people already had began returning from exile, lived in the city of Jerusalem and began making regular offerings and sacrifices before the foundations had been made... They did this because it had been decreed  by Cyrus 7 months earlier to "restore and build" Jerusalem. I know you previous statement you emphasized that scripture doesn't specifically mention Jerusalem in his decree. I would argue that the decree was specific to fulfill The prophecy of Jeremiah that said the exile from Jerusalem would end after 70 years (in other words the people would be restored).  But I also mentioned that in Isaiah 44:28 God says, "“who says of Cyrus, ‘He is my shepherd and will accomplish all that I please; he will say of Jerusalem, “Let it be rebuilt,” and of the temple, “Let its foundations be laid.” ’” This very specifically says that "Cyrus will say  (decree)" Jerusalem will be rebuilt and that the foundations will be laid. 

To which your response was:

"BTW Isa. 44: 28 is the Lord saying what He will do"

‭I don't get it. Yes that is exactly what I said the problem was. If Cyrus was NOT the one to issue the decree AND restore and rebuild Jerusalem, then this verse would be FALSE and we would have a fallible God. This is where I really believe there is some serious tricks going on with Satan and God's people... Because I KNOW you are not doing this intentionally. 

The second part of your statement I quoted (above) says this (my emphasis added with underlines)

....there came much opposition who wrote to king Cyrus saying that if the city is rebuilt then the king would not have dominion over it. (Ezra 3: 11.    4: 1 & 16) The king replied, 'Now give the command to make these men cease, that this city may NOT be built until the command by me.` (Ezra 4: 21)

The first sentence is incorrect: the people did not write any such thing to Cyrus. Why would they? He is the one that decreed it! There were two different instances of letters regarding the opposition to the rebuilding of the temple: 

The first is letter to Artaxerxes (Ezra 4:11-16), which is the one you incorrectly attributed to Cyrus. It was Artaxerxes who received that troubling report from Reshum and Shimshai regarding the current rebuilding of the city and its walls. This is MANY years after the decree of Cyrus and the end of the exile. This chapter does not specify when in his reign this occurred, but it was likely before Nehemiah returned to finish the wall.  As you incorrectly attributed the letter of opposition to Cyrus, the same applies to the command (decree) for the work to cease... This statement was from Artaxerxes not Cyrus.  

“As soon as the copy of the letter of King Artaxerxes was read to Rehum and Shimshai the secretary and their associates, they went immediately to the Jews in Jerusalem and compelled them by force to stop.” ‭‭Ezra‬ ‭4:23‬ 

This obviously is VERY clear and I am a little surprised to see that you framed it the way that you did... (I will get back to that in a minute.

The other of the letters is to King Darius (Ezra 5:8) which they report the rebuilding of the temple and quote the people of Jerusalem referencing Cyrus' decree (Ezra 5:14, this is the 1st time that Cyrus' decree is confirmed outside Ezra 1). Then Tattenai (the governor writing the letter) asks King Darius to look in the royal archive for a record of the decree. King Darius does find the decree (Ezra 6:2-5, another confirmation of the decree) and then issues a decree of his own that basically states that they are to financially support the rebuilding and otherwise stay out of the way of the people doing what Cyrus already decreed. 

Now back to what I mentioned above, about my surprise to how you completely misreferenced Cyrus to the acts and words of Artaxerxes. Now one of two things happened here and I have already let it be known which I think it is, but I will leave this up to you to respond (but I pray this wakes you up to this veil of confusion I mentioned):

a) There truly is a veil of confusion and you misunderstood the verse you quoted and the plain context it was written in.

Or

b) You intentionally took words out of context and outright lied, in order to make Artaxerxes fit your narrative.

Now again, though I don't know you... And haven't much experience with you in the forums, as I am brand new still, I don't believe "b" to be the case. However, that being said... You really missed the mark on how you laid this out... If the mark is to be true to God's word and not add or take away. So that tells me that the deception/confusion is thick around this area. I know why it is powerful and why it has a hold on A LOT of Christians, but that is a talk for another day... I truly pray that I was able to open your eyes to this, not meaning I am right and you're wrong, but rather the level of what I will claim to be true supernatural deception (Satan) that is going on around the Daniel prophecies and the Artaxerxes decree that never happened.

 

Side Note: I know I didn't touch on the fact that Artaxerxes issued letters on behalf of Nehemiah to provide him safe passage and to provide him supplies to rebuild the wall.... Because that is all that he rebuilt... Walls and the house he would live in.

This also was not a decree... It was permission granted to Nehemiah's requests. 

 

Edited May 1, 2016 by Daniel23

[Kan]

43 minutes ago, Daniel23 said:

Marilyn,

... you are under a veil of confusion. That for whatever reason, you cannot read it as it is, but have some type of block that is preventing you from being able to do so. ...rather Satan has confused the words for you so you can't read them...

... This is where I really believe there is some serious tricks going on with Satan and God's people... Because I KNOW you are not doing this intentionally. 

...This obviously is VERY clear and I am a little surprised to see that you framed it the way that you did... 

a) There truly is a veil of confusion and you misunderstood the verse you quoted and the plain context it was written in.

...

b) You intentionally took words out of context and outright lied, in order to make Artaxerxes fit your narrative.

...that the deception/confusion is thick around this area. ... I truly pray that I was able to open your eyes to this,  I will claim to be true supernatural deception (Satan) that is going on around the Daniel prophecies and the Artaxerxes decree that never happened...

 

The above assessment that you made of Marilyn, making the strong suggestion that she and others are intentionally lying and being manipulated by the devil, actually applies to you. 

Let me say something here. It is blatantly obvious that you are not taught of the Holy Spirit on this point of understanding, because you made the claim that you are tutored, which to all natural believers is the first sign of deception. The Holy Spirit would have led you to remain private about your inspiration and left it up to the students of the Bible to decide whether God has taught you or not.

I wonder whether you know what you are doing...

Just be careful you don't fall into a deeper trap.

 

[Daniel23]

3 hours ago, Kan said:

That is probably the clearest answer I have ever read on that point. I studied Ezra and found the same, but I did not know about the confirmation by Nehemiah. Thank you.

Hi Kan,

It might be clear, but it is completely inaccurate. This is a gross deception that I hope you guys awaken to... It might seem that this is not a salvation issue type of subject, and that I would agree to. But the fact that there is such a thick layer of deception (from the Great Deceiver himself) over this subject matter, I have a feeling the consequences will be catastrophic. Why else would he go through such trouble to keep the truth hidden?

“He said to them, “Do you bring in a lamp to put it under a bowl or a bed? Instead, don’t you put it on its stand? For whatever is hidden is meant to be disclosed, and whatever is concealed is meant to be brought out into the open. If anyone has ears to hear, let them hear.” “Consider carefully what you hear,” he continued. “With the measure you use, it will be measured to you—and even more. Whoever has will be given more; whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them.””
‭‭Mark‬ ‭4:21-25‬ ‭
 

 

 

[Daniel23]

Kan,

I am sharing with you my experience... You can discern the truth for yourself, but the things I pointed out above should be a HUGE concern for you. How did you state that you had studied Ezra and "found the same" , but yet you didn't realize that it was misquoted to the point where the REAL word of God was perverted in the statement that I addressed above. But because I put the authority of the matter in God's word and thr importance of being accurate when describing or quoting His word... That puts me on a slippery slope. I was tutored... I had truth revealed to me by the Holy Spirit. And no, there wasn't a caveat that I had to keep it secret. As a matter of fact, I say that not to claim prophecy... Because it wasn't prophecy. I say that to give ALL the glory to God for without Him I would have nothing to add to this conversation. I chased intellectual answers to the brink of madness. The answers were revealed to me when I gave up on trying to figure it out... You don't have to believe me, my relationship with God is not dependent on your validation of it.

I did not say that Marilyn intentionally lied... I posed it as one of two options, if you could provide me other alternatives as to how she posted what she did, which was grossly inaccurate and not reflective of the actual words in the bible, I would happily be willing to listen to it. I actually said she has been deceived with a veil of confusion... It is apparent she is intelligent (so she doesn't lack the capacity to understand). She seems like a true believer(so she doesn't seem like the type that would intentionally pervert the Word to deceive others). So if she is confused it is not by intelligence... Then it is likely something external is causing confusion. I simply offered an explanation as to what that might be. That is the end of the matter. 

 “However, as it is written: “What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived” — the things God has prepared for those who love him— these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, for, “Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭2:9-16‬ 
 

[Kan]

6 hours ago, Daniel23 said:

Kan,

I am sharing with you my experience... You can discern the truth for yourself, but the things I pointed out above should be a HUGE concern for you. How did you state that you had studied Ezra and "found the same" , but yet you didn't realize that it was misquoted to the point where the REAL word of God was perverted in the statement that I addressed above. But because I put the authority of the matter in God's word and thr importance of being accurate when describing or quoting His word... That puts me on a slippery slope. I was tutored... I had truth revealed to me by the Holy Spirit. And no, there wasn't a caveat that I had to keep it secret. As a matter of fact, I say that not to claim prophecy... Because it wasn't prophecy. I say that to give ALL the glory to God for without Him I would have nothing to add to this conversation. I chased intellectual answers to the brink of madness. The answers were revealed to me when I gave up on trying to figure it out... You don't have to believe me, my relationship with God is not dependent on your validation of it.

I did not say that Marilyn intentionally lied... I posed it as one of two options, if you could provide me other alternatives as to how she posted what she did, which was grossly inaccurate and not reflective of the actual words in the bible, I would happily be willing to listen to it. I actually said she has been deceived with a veil of confusion... It is apparent she is intelligent (so she doesn't lack the capacity to understand). She seems like a true believer(so she doesn't seem like the type that would intentionally pervert the Word to deceive others). So if she is confused it is not by intelligence... Then it is likely something external is causing confusion. I simply offered an explanation as to what that might be. That is the end of the matter. 

 “However, as it is written: “What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived” — the things God has prepared for those who love him— these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, for, “Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭2:9-16‬ 
 

If I have misjudged you, I apologize. I am not saying there is no truth to your posts, but that you have not included a rational acceptance of what others have quoted from the Bible. Here are a couple of examples.

Cyrus is a name which applies to an individual, just like Nebuchadnezzar, but both names are also titles of the King. In Daniel there are three successive kings under the name of Nebuchadnezzar. Cyrus has the same application in history. 

In one prophecy Cyrus is used as an illustration of the Messiah, He would further the completion of the temple.

The 490 prophetic years begin in 457 BC and end in 34 AD. In the last 7 years of that time period, Jesus would be "cut off" and end the sacrificial system which pointed forward to Him. In fact Daniel says it would take place in the middle of that week, which is 31 AD.

By shifting the start date for this prophecy, you end up also shifting the start date for the 2300 year prophecy. The 2300 year prophecy points to the cleansing of the sanctuary. See Daniel 8:14. This is the most important theme of Daniel, because it concerns the last and final ministry of Christ for the world. We are to be aware of this and by faith enter this holy place in heaven, by having a clearer understanding of that judgement and ministry. Hebrews 10 gives us an idea of what Paul wanted the people to understand. The purpose of the ministry of Christ is to bring people into complete harmony with God, by eradicating sin from their hearts and minds. There has to be a relation to God via the only priest God has ordained in order for that to happen.

[Daniel23]

Kan,

Each chapter of the Daniel represents a different prophecy these were sometimes decades apart from each other. So it doesn't shift the timeline of Daniel 8, because Daniel 8 is dealing with end times... Daniel 9 is prophesying the Savior. These are not mutually exclusive. 

As for there being different Cyrus' I haven't found another Cyrus who was a Babylonian King that issued a decree. I actually didn't find another Babylonian King named Cyrus anywhere. If you have some examples of this I would be interested to read on this and the "different" Nebuchadnezzars that existed. This is the first I have heard of this. 

I appreciate the softening of your tone from previous posts and while I would like to continue the conversation in this tone, I have to say that the problem that I think we're going to struggle with is that you are more interpreting the bible to fit a narrative that you have already accepted as truth. This will be a nonstarter because though I already brought up points why the Artaxerxes decree did not exist or at best was decree inferred from various verses, you haven't seemed to address that. If Artaxerxes could have logically been THE DECREE, I would have never questioned it beyond that. But because it couldn't past muster, I started digging and thus I came on the path I am today. I used nothing other than the word of God (with the help of what I believe was the Holy Spirit) to come up with any of this. I used outside sources for historical data only after the interpretation was done and only to see if it was close enough to be considered a fit.

If there is something I am missing, please share it with me... I am after the truth and if my interpretation can be proven wrong... Then I can accept it. God's word is the only authority and I don't want to interpret it in a way that only serves my needs or desires. Because at the end of the day, if I am delusional... I have to answer to God as to why I perverted His word. 

Thank you for attempting another angle at approaching this discussion... It will be much more productive if we can treat each other as family in Christ... Because He is what is really important!

 

In the Spirit of His Love,

 

Daniel

 

 

[Marilyn C]

12 hours ago, Kan said:

That is probably the clearest answer I have ever read on that point. I studied Ezra and found the same, but I did not know about the confirmation by Nehemiah. Thank you.

Hi Kan,

That`s great. Please note a correction -

When the foundations of the house of the Lord was laid, there came much opposition in the time of king Cyrus & they eventually wrote to king Artaxerxes saying that if the city is rebuilt then the king would not have dominion over it. (Ezra 3: 11.    4: 1 & 16) The king replied –

`Now give the command to make these men cease, that this city may NOT be built until the command by me.` (Ezra 4: 21)

Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi Daniel23,

Thank you for your thoughts & please note my correction, (thank you for that) -

When the foundations of the house of the Lord was laid, there came much opposition in the time of king Cyrus & they eventually wrote to king Artaxerxes saying that if the city is rebuilt then the king would not have dominion over it. (Ezra 3: 11.    4: 1 & 16) The king replied –

`Now give the command to make these men cease, that this city may NOT be built until the command by me.` (Ezra 4: 21)

I am looking carefully at your comments & will reply soon.

Marilyn.