fulfilled feasts

[Guest]

I was involved in a conversation with some Messianics few weeks ago. The subject of the feasts was brought up. Several Messianics said that the fall feasts had not yet been fulfilled.  How can some deny the day of atonement being fulfilled in Christ Jesus? Did he or did he not make an atonement for our sins? If so, then at least one of the fall feasts has been fulfilled. But more importantly it concerns me that at least some would make his atoning sacrifice of no effect. Does this concern anyone else here?

[Qnts2]

8 hours ago, Joline said:

I was involved in a conversation with some Messianics few weeks ago. The subject of the feasts was brought up. Several Messianics said that the fall feasts had not yet been fulfilled.  How can some deny the day of atonement being fulfilled in Christ Jesus? Did he or did he not make an atonement for our sins? If so, then at least one of the fall feasts has been fulfilled. But more importantly it concerns me that at least some would make his atoning sacrifice of no effect. Does this concern anyone else here?

I have no concern about the prophetic nature of the feasts with the spring feasts being fulfilled and the fall feasts in the future. I do not understand why you brought a conversation we were having on another forum into this forum.

But I will repeat what I said on the other forum

It is very clear that the spring feasts were fulfilled.

Jesus died on Passover as the Passover lamb. Communion is a celebration commemorating what Jesus said in the Passover seder.

Jesus rose again on the day of the first fruits wave offering. The church celebrates Easter commemorating this. In the Mosaic law, on the day of the first fruits wave offering, the count of the omer begins to 49. On the 50th day, is the Feast of first fruits, which is the church celebration of Pentacost. 

All of these feasts have been fulfilled and are celebrated by the church, (although altered to avoid a Jewish connection).

There is no church celebration of the fall feasts as they have not be transferred to the New Covenant yet. The fall feasts are all future when Jesus returns. All of the Holy Days in the Mosaic law are shadows pointing to Jesus. As these are fulfilled, Jesus will fulfill each one, and they will become Holy Days of remembering what Jesus has done.

When speaking about the future prophetic events, I am always reminded of the ancient writings in Judaism. The Rabbi's in Judaism, for a brief time, discussed the prophetic scripture about the Messiah, and tried to figure out such things as timing, and how the scriptures which say the Messiah would be triumphant vs the Messiah would die would work out. Reading the Rabbinic opinions of how the (for them) future prophesies would work out, some interpretations were very close to accurate and some were wrong but I could understand how they came up with their understanding. I realized that future prophesies can have a variety of interpretations, and even among Christians, our future prophesies have a lot of differing opinions. Some will be right or close to right and some will be wrong. We won't know for sure how they play out until we actually see them. So, what I propose as how the future prophesies will work out might be somewhat right and might be wrong. We will all know when Jesus returns and they are fulfilled.    

Rosh Hashanah is the first fall Holy day. In scripture, it is called Yom Teruah or the day of the trumpet blast. It is also, a call to repentance for Israel, and begins the 'Days of Awe'. While Israel, as a nation/group, are receiving a final call to repentance, the church might be raptured.

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 

Yom Kippur is a national sacrifice. Not a sacrifice for an individual. Yom Kippur is a sacrifice for the nation. Scripture indicates that when Jesus returns, steps down on the Mt. Of Olives, during the great battle where Jesus defeats the armies attacking Israel, all the children of Israel who are alive and see Him will be saved. Israel will be saved as a nation. Since the time of Jesus death, resurrection, and Pentecost (the beginning of the assembly of Christians, people have individually been saved and added, one by one, to a new nation under the New Covenant for the last 2000 years. When all of living Israel is saved when Jesus returns, and are included, the New Nation will be complete, and Jesus death will have accomplished atonement for all or the New Nation.

Succoth is the celebration of the last in-gathering of the harvest and a remembrance of the time Israel wandered in the desert. I believe Succoth will be the millenium. Jesus will reign as King from Jerusalem. While, we are here now in a world ruled by the world, which is like the time in he desert, when Jesus rules as King on earth, among us, we will no longer living in the desert. Succoth is called in English Feast of Tabernacles, and Jesus will physically be tabernacling among us and with us all. All nations are commanded to come to Jerusalem on Succoth. I believe they come to honor King Jesus. 

On the last day of Succoth, or day after Succoth, there is a Holy Day called Simchat Torah. In Judaism, the Torah is read, selected section by section, through out the year. At the beginning of Simchat Torah (after sunset), the last portion is read and the next day, the first portion is read. The Torah prophesies the Messiah, and the time of Jacob's trouble (great tribulation), and the victory of the Messiah over Israel's enemies, and the Messiahs reign as King in Jerusalem during what is called the Messianic era. I believe Simchat Torah will be the end of the Millenium and the beginning of the New Heaven and New Earth.        

 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Qnts2 said:

I have no concern about the prophetic nature of the feasts with the spring feasts being fulfilled and the fall feasts in the future. I do not understand why you brought a conversation we were having on another forum into this forum.

But I will repeat what I said on the other forum

It is very clear that the spring feasts were fulfilled.

Jesus died on Passover as the Passover lamb. Communion is a celebration commemorating what Jesus said in the Passover seder.

Jesus rose again on the day of the first fruits wave offering. The church celebrates Easter commemorating this. In the Mosaic law, on the day of the first fruits wave offering, the count of the omer begins to 49. On the 50th day, is the Feast of first fruits, which is the church celebration of Pentacost. 

All of these feasts have been fulfilled and are celebrated by the church, (although altered to avoid a Jewish connection).

There is no church celebration of the fall feasts as they have not be transferred to the New Covenant yet. The fall feasts are all future when Jesus returns. All of the Holy Days in the Mosaic law are shadows pointing to Jesus. As these are fulfilled, Jesus will fulfill each one, and they will become Holy Days of remembering what Jesus has done.

When speaking about the future prophetic events, I am always reminded of the ancient writings in Judaism. The Rabbi's in Judaism, for a brief time, discussed the prophetic scripture about the Messiah, and tried to figure out such things as timing, and how the scriptures which say the Messiah would be triumphant vs the Messiah would die would work out. Reading the Rabbinic opinions of how the (for them) future prophesies would work out, some interpretations were very close to accurate and some were wrong but I could understand how they came up with their understanding. I realized that future prophesies can have a variety of interpretations, and even among Christians, our future prophesies have a lot of differing opinions. Some will be right or close to right and some will be wrong. We won't know for sure how they play out until we actually see them. So, what I propose as how the future prophesies will work out might be somewhat right and might be wrong. We will all know when Jesus returns and they are fulfilled.    

Rosh Hashanah is the first fall Holy day. In scripture, it is called Yom Teruah or the day of the trumpet blast. It is also, a call to repentance for Israel, and begins the 'Days of Awe'. While Israel, as a nation/group, are receiving a final call to repentance, the church might be raptured.

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 

Yom Kippur is a national sacrifice. Not a sacrifice for an individual. Yom Kippur is a sacrifice for the nation. Scripture indicates that when Jesus returns, steps down on the Mt. Of Olives, during the great battle where Jesus defeats the armies attacking Israel, all the children of Israel who are alive and see Him will be saved. Israel will be saved as a nation. Since the time of Jesus death, resurrection, and Pentecost (the beginning of the assembly of Christians, people have individually been saved and added, one by one, to a new nation under the New Covenant for the last 2000 years. When all of living Israel is saved when Jesus returns, and are included, the New Nation will be complete, and Jesus death will have accomplished atonement for all or the New Nation.

Succoth is the celebration of the last in-gathering of the harvest and a remembrance of the time Israel wandered in the desert. I believe Succoth will be the millenium. Jesus will reign as King from Jerusalem. While, we are here now in a world ruled by the world, which is like the time in he desert, when Jesus rules as King on earth, among us, we will no longer living in the desert. Succoth is called in English Feast of Tabernacles, and Jesus will physically be tabernacling among us and with us all. All nations are commanded to come to Jerusalem on Succoth. I believe they come to honor King Jesus. 

On the last day of Succoth, or day after Succoth, there is a Holy Day called Simchat Torah. In Judaism, the Torah is read, selected section by section, through out the year. At the beginning of Simchat Torah (after sunset), the last portion is read and the next day, the first portion is read. The Torah prophesies the Messiah, and the time of Jacob's trouble (great tribulation), and the victory of the Messiah over Israel's enemies, and the Messiahs reign as King in Jerusalem during what is called the Messianic era. I believe Simchat Torah will be the end of the Millenium and the beginning of the New Heaven and New Earth.        

 

First of all I brought it up because it concerns me. I am wondering how others view this, especially Messianics. I asked if this was a teaching of individuals or Messianic Judaism. I never received a response to that question.

Second of all, The nations are given promises in the second covenant made with Abraham. Abraham was promised to be made a father to many nations in Genesis 17. Israel as a nation received promises,(still does), promises from the first covenant in Genesis 15. There are two covenants as Paul teaches. The nations are equally included as the seed of Abraham, in the second covenant.

Third of all, the Passover sacrifice was not an atonement for sin, nor was it to take away sin. As John preached, the lamb who takes away the sin of the world. The Passover is that which spares from Judgement. John preached the wrath which was coming as foretold in the law. The Passover was an escaped from that Judgment.

 

Fourth, the Church from the beginning kept a very strict fast. We even have record of Jewish leadership disagreeing with the roman Church over the timing of breaking the fast, for celebration of the resurrection. Some ancient Churches kept this fast one day, others for two days, but then later, others still expanded the fast for 40 days or more. This is mostly known as lent. Since Christ fulfilled the law, and all sacrifices, in one sacrifice, on one day. If you look at the early Church, including Jewish ones, a very strict fast was kept. This fast was kept in similar manner as Jews kept unto the day of atonement. So there is evidence that the commandment concerning the day of atonement to AFFLICT your souls, was kept. But, it was kept in a manner which acknowledged Christ as an atonement.

[Qnts2]

1 hour ago, Joline said:

First of all I brought it up because it concerns me. I am wondering how others view this, especially Messianics. I asked if this was a teaching of individuals or Messianic Judaism. I never received a response to that question.

Second of all, The nations are given promises in the second covenant made with Abraham. Abraham was promised to be made a father to many nations in Genesis 17. Israel as a nation received promises,(still does), promises from the first covenant in Genesis 15. There are two covenants as Paul teaches. The nations are equally included as the seed of Abraham, in the second covenant.

Third of all, the Passover sacrifice was not an atonement for sin, nor was it to take away sin. As John preached, the lamb who takes away the sin of the world. The Passover is that which spares from Judgement. John preached the wrath which was coming as foretold in the law. The Passover was an escaped from that Judgment.

 

Fourth, the Church from the beginning kept a very strict fast. We even have record of Jewish leadership disagreeing with the roman Church over the timing of breaking the fast, for celebration of the resurrection. Some ancient Churches kept this fast one day, others for two days, but then later, others still expanded the fast for 40 days or more. This is mostly known as lent. Since Christ fulfilled the law, and all sacrifices, in one sacrifice, on one day. If you look at the early Church, including Jewish ones, a very strict fast was kept. This fast was kept in similar manner as Jews kept unto the day of atonement. So there is evidence that the commandment concerning the day of atonement to AFFLICT your souls, was kept. But, it was kept in a manner which acknowledged Christ as an atonement.

I don't speak for other predominantly Gentile Messianic groups like One Law or Two House. Messianic Judaism does teach the fulfillment of the spring Holy days in what Jesus did when He came, died for sin, was buried and rose again, and gave the gift of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. Messianic Judaism does teach that the fall Holy days will be fulfilled by Jesus when He comes again.

Abraham was promised that His linage will be a blessing to all nations, and the NT says that Jews and Gentiles who believe on Jesus are considered Abrahams children by faith.

The Passover sacrifice, the lamb, was not a sin sacrifice. The Passover sacrifice was a sacrifice, which if the blood was applied to the door posts and lintel, would cause the death angel to pass over, so essentially, the Passover sacrifice was a sacrifice which brought life to those who were to die just as Jesus came to give life. 

All of this we have been over on the other forum. I came to this forum because it is a forum for believers, and the discussions do not get as contentious with as much hostility. To me this forum is a breath of fresh air, and brothers and sisters in the Lord disagree without the excessive hostility of other forums. This forum is more of an encouraging forum.

I do not know of a very strict Church fast which you are speaking of. Or of any disagreement over the timing of the breaking of the fast for the celebration of the resurrection. Passover is a feast, not a fast. The resurrection occurred on the day after the Sabbath during Passover, the feast (unless you consider eating only unleavened bread as a fast, which is not a Jewish interpretation). If that comes from scripture, please give a quote.

If the early church kept Yom Kippur as a fast day, and Jewish leadership disagreed, I agree with Jewish leadership. Yom Kippur is not for the church yet. And when it is, it will be a celebration. In Messianic Judaism, some do fast for Yom Kippur, not for ourselves but for the nation of Israel.   

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, Qnts2 said:

I don't speak for other predominantly Gentile Messianic groups like One Law or Two House. Messianic Judaism does teach the fulfillment of the spring Holy days in what Jesus did when He came, died for sin, was buried and rose again, and gave the gift of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. Messianic Judaism does teach that the fall Holy days will be fulfilled by Jesus when He comes again.

Abraham was promised that His linage will be a blessing to all nations, and the NT says that Jews and Gentiles who believe on Jesus are considered Abrahams children by faith.

The Passover sacrifice, the lamb, was not a sin sacrifice. The Passover sacrifice was a sacrifice, which if the blood was applied to the door posts and lintel, would cause the death angel to pass over, so essentially, the Passover sacrifice was a sacrifice which brought life to those who were to die just as Jesus came to give life. 

All of this we have been over on the other forum. I came to this forum because it is a forum for believers, and the discussions do not get as contentious with as much hostility. To me this forum is a breath of fresh air, and brothers and sisters in the Lord disagree without the excessive hostility of other forums. This forum is more of an encouraging forum.

I do not know of a very strict Church fast which you are speaking of. Or of any disagreement over the timing of the breaking of the fast for the celebration of the resurrection. Passover is a feast, not a fast. The resurrection occurred on the day after the Sabbath during Passover, the feast (unless you consider eating only unleavened bread as a fast, which is not a Jewish interpretation). If that comes from scripture, please give a quote.

If the early church kept Yom Kippur as a fast day, and Jewish leadership disagreed, I agree with Jewish leadership. Yom Kippur is not for the church yet. And when it is, it will be a celebration. In Messianic Judaism, some do fast for Yom Kippur, not for ourselves but for the nation of Israel.   

Please do not misunderstand my comments about the early Church. There was no disagreement concerning keeping the strict fast. All were keeping a very strict dry fast. as According to the "affliction of your souls" commanded by law. Rather because al were keeping the fast, the only disagreement concerned what day to END the fast. This ending of the fast concerned partaking of the Eucharist. Which the Roman Church sent the Eucharist unto the Jewish Churches, and they agreed to disagree over the particular day to end the fast. Which fast concerned Christs sacrificial death and the resurrection. So the Jewish church would have disagreed with Rabbinic Judaism.

Which brings me to the next point. The promises made to Abraham have already been fulfilled. The first Church had already been walking in the Power of the royal priesthood of the second covenant promises.

Ge 17:6  And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
Ge 17:16  And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.
1Pe 2:9  But ye are , a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous a chosen generationlight:

It was already fulfilled 2000 years ago qnts.

And his death atoned for our sins. He does not come again and die again??????????? 

[Ezra]

5 hours ago, Qnts2 said:

Yom Kippur is a national sacrifice. Not a sacrifice for an individual. Yom Kippur is a sacrifice for the nation.

The day that Christ died on the Cross, He made also made a national sacrifice for Israel, and brought Yom Kippur (the day of Atonement) to an end.  Proof? The veil in the Temple separating the Holy Place from the Holy of Holies was torn from top to bottom on that very same day. There would be no more Yom Kippur after that!

Let's face it. Messianics are so obsessed with their Jewishsness that they disregard the plain teaching of Scripture when it suits.

[Qnts2]

14 minutes ago, Joline said:

Please do not misunderstand my comments about the early Church. There was no disagreement concerning keeping the strict fast. All were keeping a very strict dry fast. as According to the "affliction of your souls" commanded by law. Rather because al were keeping the fast, the only disagreement concerned what day to END the fast. This ending of the fast concerned partaking of the Eucharist. Which the Roman Church sent the Eucharist unto the Jewish Churches, and they agreed to disagree over the particular day to end the fast. Which fast concerned Christs sacrificial death and the resurrection. So the Jewish church would have disagreed with Rabbinic Judaism.

Which brings me to the next point. The promises made to Abraham have already been fulfilled. The first Church had already been walking in the Power of the royal priesthood of the second covenant promises.

Ge 17:6  And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
Ge 17:16  And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.
1Pe 2:9  But ye are , a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous a chosen generationlight:

It was already fulfilled 2000 years ago qnts.

And his death atoned for our sins. He does not come again and die again??????????? 

Ok, you bring up the Eucharist, which I view as Catholic. 

If the early church fasted, it isn't in scripture. The so called Jewish churches, ceased to exist after the 130 ce dispersion. And after the Jerusalem dispersion in 130 ce, the Roman church, which was the largest church, and the more accepted Bishop, gained the central power. I find it to be shaky history or questionable history when you say the Roman Church sent the Eucharist to the 'Jewish Churches'. I will look for any reference to this in a history book.

The promise to Abraham, concerning the linage of the Messiah, and that Sarah would be the mother of nations, have been fulfilled. Other promises to Abraham, have not yet been fulfilled, concerning the land. I do not entirely relate Sarah being a mother of nations to Jesus. I also do not believe that 1 Peter 2:9 is related to the promises to Abraham. 

I never said Jesus death did not atone for the sins of those who believe. I have repeatedly said Jesus death did atone for the sins of believers, so please stop arguing where we agree or implying that I do not believe that Jesus died for the sins of believers. I said that Yom Kippur is a national atonement, not an individual atonement. Yom Kippur is an atonement for Israel as a nation, and when the New Nations under the New Covenant is complete, Jesus will have fulfilled Yom Kippur in a New Covenant perspective. That will occur when Jesus returns and the children of Israel accept Him as the Messiah. Jesus died once and for all, but not everyone who will accept Jesus has accepted Jesus. The 'New Nation' will not be complete until the children of Israel are included. Then, Yom Kippur will be fulfilled. 

Yom Kippur is a national day of atonement for Israel and will be the national atonement when the complete Christian nation has been brought in. Yom Kippur is not the only sacrifice for sin in the Mosaic law. Jesus did fulfill the daily sin sacrifice for individuals. Jesus only needed to die once. But, the Christian nation is not yet complete so it is not yet a national sacrifice. God knows each and every person who has not yet been born but will believe on Jesus. Those people, not yet saved, will be included in the New Nation. Then Yom Kippur will be a NT sacrifice for the entire nation. 

 

 

[Qnts2]

33 minutes ago, Ezra said:

The day that Christ died on the Cross, He made also made a national sacrifice for Israel, and brought Yom Kippur (the day of Atonement) to an end.  Proof? The veil in the Temple separating the Holy Place from the Holy of Holies was torn from top to bottom on that very same day. There would be no more Yom Kippur after that!

Let's face it. Messianics are so obsessed with their Jewishsness that they disregard the plain teaching of Scripture when it suits.

Do you believe that there will be a time when all Children of Israel which are alive at that time, will see Jesus return and accept Jesus as their Messiah?

What is the timing?

Matthew 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

In Judaism, when the Messiah comes, the High Priest was to greet the Messiah with what is called the Messianic greeting. When Jesus entered Jerusalem, the priests and pharisees refused to give the Messianic greeting. They even tried to silence the people who were recognizing Jesus as the Messiah. Jesus went up to the Temple, and told them that they will not see Him again until they will say the Messianic greeting. That will be during the second coming. At which time, all of Israel who are alive at that time, will be saved 

[thereselittleflower]

4 hours ago, Qnts2 said:

Do you believe that there will be a time when all Children of Israel which are alive at that time, will see Jesus return and accept Jesus as their Messiah?

What is the timing?

Matthew 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

In Judaism, when the Messiah comes, the High Priest was to greet the Messiah with what is called the Messianic greeting. When Jesus entered Jerusalem, the priests and pharisees refused to give the Messianic greeting. They even tried to silence the people who were recognizing Jesus as the Messiah. Jesus went up to the Temple, and told them that they will not see Him again until they will say the Messianic greeting. That will be during the second coming. At which time, all of Israel who are alive at that time, will be saved 

And each Jewish person, to be saved, will need to each make their own personal decision for Christ.

What does that have to do with what Ezra said about Yom Kippur?  

I don't see how your post responded to his at all.

The Atonement happened when Christ died on the Cross during the Passover.   There is no further Day of Atonement.  It already happened.  

 

[thereselittleflower]

4 hours ago, Qnts2 said:

Ok, you bring up the Eucharist, which I view as Catholic. 

If the early church fasted, it isn't in scripture. The so called Jewish churches, ceased to exist after the 130 ce dispersion. And after the Jerusalem dispersion in 130 ce, the Roman church, which was the largest church, and the more accepted Bishop, gained the central power. I find it to be shaky history or questionable history when you say the Roman Church sent the Eucharist to the 'Jewish Churches'. I will look for any reference to this in a history book.

The promise to Abraham, concerning the linage of the Messiah, and that Sarah would be the mother of nations, have been fulfilled. Other promises to Abraham, have not yet been fulfilled, concerning the land. I do not entirely relate Sarah being a mother of nations to Jesus. I also do not believe that 1 Peter 2:9 is related to the promises to Abraham. 

I never said Jesus death did not atone for the sins of those who believe. I have repeatedly said Jesus death did atone for the sins of believers, so please stop arguing where we agree or implying that I do not believe that Jesus died for the sins of believers. I said that Yom Kippur is a national atonement, not an individual atonement. Yom Kippur is an atonement for Israel as a nation, and when the New Nations under the New Covenant is complete, Jesus will have fulfilled Yom Kippur in a New Covenant perspective. That will occur when Jesus returns and the children of Israel accept Him as the Messiah. Jesus died once and for all, but not everyone who will accept Jesus has accepted Jesus. The 'New Nation' will not be complete until the children of Israel are included. Then, Yom Kippur will be fulfilled. 

Yom Kippur is a national day of atonement for Israel and will be the national atonement when the complete Christian nation has been brought in. Yom Kippur is not the only sacrifice for sin in the Mosaic law. Jesus did fulfill the daily sin sacrifice for individuals. Jesus only needed to die once. But, the Christian nation is not yet complete so it is not yet a national sacrifice. God knows each and every person who has not yet been born but will believe on Jesus. Those people, not yet saved, will be included in the New Nation. Then Yom Kippur will be a NT sacrifice for the entire nation. 

 

 

 

Exactly WHAT sacrifice will happen on Yom Kippur?

• Leviticus 23:27

  "On exactly the tenth day of this seventh month is the day of atonement; it shall be a holy convocation for you, and you shall humble your souls and present an offering by fire to the LORD.

  Exodus 30:10
  Once a year Aaron shall make atonement on its horns. This annual atonement must be made with the blood of the atoning sin offering for the generations to come. It is most holy to the LORD."