fulfilled feasts

[Shar]

Joline, Stick with Q on the responses regarding these feasts and an understanding of them.  I, myself being Messianic, agree with Q and her explanations.  The Fall Feasts do have an association with Israel, particularly at the end times.  Like Q explained, when Jesus returns there will be a national sacrifice, for the scripture states that in one day, He will take away the sin of Israel.  (Yom Kippur).

Those who don't understand the significance of Israel and God's covenant promise to them and His future Davidic reign will blast those who believe that God's feasts have specific meaning for Israel's future too.

Also, those who do not understand the very Jewishness of the Bible, will accuse Messianics of being obsessed with being Jewish, which is not the case.  These types of naysayers are usually engaged more in replacement theology, rather than accepting God's promise to the Jews as everlasting, and it will have its fulfillment when Jesus returns to set up His Davidic reign in Jerusalem.

[Qnts2]

5 hours ago, Qnts2 said:

Ok, you bring up the Eucharist, which I view as Catholic. 

If the early church fasted, it isn't in scripture. The so called Jewish churches, ceased to exist after the 130 ce dispersion. And after the Jerusalem dispersion in 130 ce, the Roman church, which was the largest church, and the more accepted Bishop, gained the central power. I find it to be shaky history or questionable history when you say the Roman Church sent the Eucharist to the 'Jewish Churches'. I will look for any reference to this in a history book.

 

Just FYI:

I am cleaning my house and packing up some things getting ready to move, and unfortunately have packed up all of my Christian history books. I have searched the internet and can not find anything which says the early church (Gentiles) fasted on the Day of Atonement, or that the Roman church sent Eucharist to the 'Jewish churches'. 

[Ezra]

1 hour ago, thereselittleflower said:

And each Jewish person, to be saved, will need to each make their own personal decision for Christ.

What does that have to do with what Ezra said about Yom Kippur?  

I don't see how your post responded to his at all.

The Atonement happened when Christ died on the Cross during the Passover.   There is no further Day of Atonement.  It already happened.  

This is correct.  At the Second Coming of Christ each and every Jew must mourn, repent, and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ in order to be saved. But there cannot be another Day of Atonement, since that is the day Christ died for the sins of Israel, and the sins of the world, and God the Father tore the Temple veil from top to bottom.

[Shar]

10 minutes ago, Ezra said:

This is correct.  At the Second Coming of Christ each and every Jew must mourn, repent, and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ in order to be saved. But there cannot be another Day of Atonement, since that is the day Christ died for the sins of Israel, and the sins of the world, and God the Father tore the Temple veil from top to bottom.

It is not that another actual re-sacrifice of Christ occurs.  It is simply that on that 1 day (Yom Kippur), they will accept their Messiah and on that 1 day  (Yom Kippur) their sins will be removed. 

[Guest]

27 minutes ago, Qnts2 said:

Just FYI:

I am cleaning my house and packing up some things getting ready to move, and unfortunately have packed up all of my Christian history books. I have searched the internet and can not find anything which says the early church (Gentiles) fasted on the Day of Atonement, or that the Roman church sent Eucharist to the 'Jewish churches'. 

Again, please do not misunderstand what I said. Christ Jesus by one sacrifice atoned for our sins. That sacrifice was acknowledged as it were an atonement by the fast.  therefore his sacrifice fulfilled all sacrifices in one day. That is what the Lords supper ( you seem to dislike historical language) is about. His sacrifice was more than just a Passover. That is what U believe the early Church was showing by keeping the commandments according to Yom kippur according to his sacrifice to show it was much broader than a Passover sacrifice.

[thereselittleflower]

19 minutes ago, Shar said:

It is not that another actual re-sacrifice of Christ occurs.  It is simply that on that 1 day (Yom Kippur), they will accept their Messiah and on that 1 day  (Yom Kippur) their sins will be removed. 

I don't see any substantiation for such a belief though.  It's all conjecture.

 

 

[Qnts2]

22 minutes ago, Joline said:

Again, please do not misunderstand what I said. Christ Jesus by one sacrifice atoned for our sins. That sacrifice was acknowledged as it were an atonement by the fast.  therefore his sacrifice fulfilled all sacrifices in one day. That is what the Lords supper ( you seem to dislike historical language) is about. His sacrifice was more than just a Passover. That is what U believe the early Church was showing by keeping the commandments according to Yom kippur according to his sacrifice to show it was much broader than a Passover sacrifice.

Let me repeat. The Passover lamb was not a sin sacrifice. Jesus died for sins, once and for all.

There were many sacrifices for sin done daily. There is no more sacrifice for sin needed at all. Can we get past the sin sacrifice?

Yom Kippur was not a sacrifice for sin for the individual. It was a sacrifice for the nation. All the members of the nation of Israel receive the benefit of the sacrifice on Yom Kippur. Yom Kippur, to be fulfilled needs to be a national sacrifice, not an individual sacrifice. As I've already said, Jesus sacrifice was once for all, but not all have yet received the benefit of that sacrifice as not all are yet saved. When the fullness of the Gentiles have come in and all of Israel living the day Jesus returns, the entire ecclesia, past, present and future, will have become a member of the New Nation of the New Covenant, and at that time Yom Kippur will be fulfilled. That will happen in the future. Just as the Day of the Trumpet blast, calling the unsaved nation of Israel to repentance. Followed by the Day of National Atonement when all will have become saved, receiving atonement, and then Succoth, when Jesus will tabernacle physically on earth as King for 1000 years and the finally, the last of the Torah will be fulfilled and the New Heaven and New Earth will come down.    

Added: Jesus atonement was not made by any fast so I am not sure what you are saying. 

As far as your use of the word Eucharist. The only church I know of for sure which uses Eucharist is the RCC but it might also be used in Lutheran and Episcopalian churches. The RCC believes in transubstination and Lutherans believe in constubstination. I'm not sure about Episopals. Messianic Judaism believes in the symbolism of communion, not Consubstination or transubstination. Since the only modern churches which use the term Eucharist believe differently the symbolism, I do not use the term Eucharist.   

[Guest]

43 minutes ago, Shar said:

Joline, Stick with Q on the responses regarding these feasts and an understanding of them.  I, myself being Messianic, agree with Q and her explanations.  The Fall Feasts do have an association with Israel, particularly at the end times.  Like Q explained, when Jesus returns there will be a national sacrifice, for the scripture states that in one day, He will take away the sin of Israel.  (Yom Kippur).

Those who don't understand the significance of Israel and God's covenant promise to them and His future Davidic reign will blast those who believe that God's feasts have specific meaning for Israel's future too.

Also, those who do not understand the very Jewishness of the Bible, will accuse Messianics of being obsessed with being Jewish, which is not the case.  These types of naysayers are usually engaged more in replacement theology, rather than accepting God's promise to the Jews as everlasting, and it will have its fulfillment when Jesus returns to set up His Davidic reign in Jerusalem.

I disagree with you concerning the "Jewish view" of scripture. I believe you have a "Rabbinic view" of scripture. There is a big difference there.

Also you are bringing things up which span several covenants, which sit distinct from the Sinai covenant. Also, nobody said they do not speak of Israels future too. Israels faithlessness in the rulers of the first century, in no way nullifies the promises made to Abraham by God. Nor does it make the fulfillment of them without effect.  As Paul explains here

Ro 3:3  For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
Hebrews also teaches us that Christ atoned for our sin as high priest.

Heb 1:3  Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Heb 10:12  But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

His heavenly ministry and the reality of it, is what the power of the resurrection is about. For again Hebrews teaches us

Heb 8:4  For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:

If Christ is not raised, he is not a priest at all.  He does not need to die on the day of atonement to fulfill that ministry in his heavenly priesthood.

And Hebrews also shows us Abraham is looking for a heavenly city, not an earthly one.

Heb 3:1  Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
Heb 6:4  For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 9:23  It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 11:16  But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
Heb 12:22  But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

[thereselittleflower]

5 minutes ago, Qnts2 said:

Let me repeat. The Passover lamb was not a sin sacrifice. Jesus died for sins, once and for all.

There were many sacrifices for sin done daily. There is no more sacrifice for sin needed at all. Can we get past the sin sacrifice?

Yom Kippur was not a sacrifice for sin for the individual. It was a sacrifice for the nation. All the members of the nation of Israel receive the benefit of the sacrifice on Yom Kippur. Yom Kippur, to be fulfilled needs to be a national sacrifice, not an individual sacrifice. As I've already said, Jesus sacrifice was once for all, but not all have yet received the benefit of that sacrifice as not all are yet saved. When the fullness of the Gentiles have come in and all of Israel living the day Jesus returns, the entire ecclesia, past, present and future, will have become a member of the New Nation of the New Covenant, and at that time Yom Kippur will be fulfilled. That will happen in the future. Just as the Day of the Trumpet blast, calling the unsaved nation of Israel to repentance. Followed by the Day of National Atonement when all will have become saved, receiving atonement, and then Succoth, when Jesus will tabernacle physically on earth as King for 1000 years and the finally, the last of the Torah will be fulfilled and the New Heaven and New Earth will come down.      

The Day of Atonement is about sacrifice.

We can't get away from sacrifice if we are talking about the Day of Atonement.

 

[Shar]

Not really.  If one has an understanding of all of God's Festivals, which he states are everlasting, you can see their fulfillment.  Christ has two comings.  In His first coming, The Passover, Feast of Unleavened Bread, First Fruits were fulfilled, and Shavuot at Pentecost.   In His second coming, and most specific to His return, His promise to Israel and His Davidic reign, the Feast of Trumpets, Yom Kippur and Succoth will be fully realized.  I would deeply encourage you to read about these Feasts and a very good book to start with is, "The Feasts of the Lord" by Kevin Howard and Marvin Rosenthal.  This gives a very clear understanding of them in Old and New Testaments, their purpose, their meaning and their times of fulfillment.  There is no conjecture, but a full understanding to God's Feasts.  God calls them His appointed times and they carry great significance to the times He has designated for His eternal plan and purposes.