A REVELATION FOR ATHIESTS

[HAZARD]

4 hours ago, siegi91 said:

 

I don't believe in God. I don't believe in any gods. Never did. It is not only that I lack belief in God, I actually believe that there are no Gods.  For all practical purposes , I am a strong atheist, at least to people who likes to play with the semantics of atheism.

Now, you say the Bible claims there are no atheists. 

Logic dictates that either I am a believer in a God, and therefore a liar, or the Bible is wrong.

What do you think?

 siegi

 

 

G-Day siege, here's what I think / believe.

There's no such thing as an atheist according to the Bible, and I believe in God and what He has created and all He has revealed to us, after trying my hardest to prove there is no God, and the Bible is a fairy story, I failed miserably.  

I believe everyone, including you siege, has a natural deep desire to know, to understand why were here and where we will end up after death.

If one truly investigates the Word of God one finds over 130 declarations of God, revealing that He is God, and the only true God, in Psalms 93:9-11; Isa.40:12-31; 41:13-21; 44:6-8; 54:12-22; and, 3,808 times expressions as "Thus sayeth the lord." and "The Lord spake" and others show Him to be the author of the Bible Many times God declares Himself to be the creator of the worlds (Gen.1:1-2:25; Job 12:7-25; 38:1-41; 34; Ps. 8:1-9; 19:1-6; 102:25-28; Isa. 45:18; John 1:1-3; Eph. 3:9; Rev. 4:10-11; 14:7; and from Hebrews 1:3 we learn that He not only created all things, but that all things are upheld by His great power.

 

Romans 1:20-21, “For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse. Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.”

 Psalm 14:1, To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

It truly amazes me why self proclaimed athiest's even bother joining Christian forums, and some, after staying there for years, and reading much of what Christians think and believe, they remain, asking questions, making comments but never changing?

I have found over the years that not only do Athiest's deny God, some even attack Christianity and, in my opinion, they simply fail to understand what they are attacking and criticizing. The very fact that athiests continue over and over again to push God out of their mind, just shows He does indeed exist.

You wrote,

Quote

"I don't believe in God. I don't believe in any gods."

My reply to that statement is, ummm who are you talking to, or about, if not God?

I also don't believe in any god's. I believe in the one true God, the creator of everything. I don't believe in evolution, survival of the fittest,? When men allegedly evolved from apes as the fittest survivors, why are there still every species of monkey and apes on the Earth? 

John 1:3-5,

V. 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

V. 4, In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

V. 5, And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended1 it not.

When I read this particular Scripture;

John 6:44, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

I find it to be a wonder that many who claim to be atheists seek out Christians and places of Christian habitation. I am truly amazed because only God can draw darkness to light, IF He chooses. The ones who are drawn are unwillingly under conviction and chosen by God.

It is the ones who keep their beliefs, or lack thereof, quiet who really concern me. They are no longer crying out for help.

I do not believe in pixies at the end of the garden., and the last thing I would do is join a "We believe in Pixies board."

If your still reading, and I hope you are, you may find this interesting!

"The Bible is God's inspired revelation of the origin and destiny of all things. It is the power of God unto eternal salvation and it is the source of present help for the body, soul, and spirit (Rom. 1:16; John 15:7).

It is God's will and testament to men in all ages, revealing the plan of God for man here and now and in the next life. It is the record of God's dealings with man; past, present, and future. It contains God's message of eternal salvation to all people who believe in Christ and of eternal damnation to those who knowingly and willingly rebel against the gospel.

"Over forty different authors wrote the sixty six books of the Bible during a period of 1,800 years; and they all had one theme. The creation and redemption of the human race by God through Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

These books of the Bible were written by men from all walks of life such as Kings, Priests, Judges, lawyers, Princes, Shepherds, Soldiers, Courtiers, Statesmen, Musicians, Inventors, Singers, Poets, Preachers, Prophets, Fishermen, Farmers, Tentmakers, Publicans, Physicians, Rich men and Poor men.

They were written in various lands of three continents, Europe, Asia, and Africa. They were written in different ages and by many men, some who never saw each other or knew what the others wrote on the same subjects, yet when their writings were all assembled into one book, there is not one contradiction among them."

I believe each and every one of the individual authors were inspired to write the particular book or books that God inspired him to write.

Many if not most of them did not know each other, and even would have known what every and any other author was called and inspired by God to write if at all.

After all the books were finally written and were all compiled into one, they were in complete unison on every doctrine and they agreed with each other and they were then re-written several times over the years by other men of varying and even if only slightly differing religions who never knew any of the original authors.

Imagine forty scientists or forty doctors writing several books on a particular celestial discovery, or a cure for some exotic or well know disease, how much unity would there be between them?

[Bonky]

On 6/12/2016 at 3:45 PM, LuftWaffle said:

I'm not sure why you're impressed by this argument...I find it hard to fathom why anybody would be, so my first instinct is to assume that you're just having a laugh and trying to get a reaction, but in case you're not this is me biting my tongue, and offering a response that's far more gratious than your comment warrants.

An atheist is someone who denies there is a God.
A theist is someone who believes there is a God. One needn't believe in all Gods to be a theist, one only needs to believe in one to qualify as a theist. A theist therefore is not an atheist in any sense.
To say a theist is an atheist to other gods is like saying that a married man is a bachelor to all the other woman in the world who isn't his spouse. A man is either married or a bachelor. Married men aren't bachelors to other women or in any way.

Maybe others here can now understand how unbelievers feel when we're told that deep down, we really believe there is a God but we just don't want to admit it.  Or we don't want to give up our sinful ways.   Or we don't want to have to submit to an authority because we're so prideful.   I know you personally probably don't advocate such nonsense but there are many who do, we see it right here in this very thread.  

While I agree that Goldensharks comment is silly if taken too literal, I also understand the underlying message.  With regard to other god claims the Christian is freely able to reject them and say "I'm not convinced your God exists"...but this courtesy is not always extended to the non-believer of the Christian God concept.  

Edited June 20, 2016 by Bonky

[markdohle]

I always find it interesting when an atheist tells me that there is no proof for the existence of God.  I am taken by the Last Judgement scene in the Gospel of Matthew.  Where Jesus invites those who reached out to others and helped them into his kingdom.  The kicker is that they did not know what Jesus was talking about.  Those on his left did not reach out to others and were therefore incapable of entering into the kingdom. 

Jesus being the 'Word', has always been at work in the world, so all much 'deal' with that reality.  C.S. Lewis in his Chronicles of Narnia had an interesting take on the Last Judgement.  As each inhabitant came up to Aslan (Jesus Christ) they either knew him or did not.  Some of the those who knew him were from the opposing side.  It seemed to be a deep knowing, perhaps a heart to heart connection.  Or a choice made at such a deep level that it was not articulated.

We need to let others know of the love of God that is shone through Christ Jesus.  Some reject because of well 'us', if we do not show that Christ Jesus dwells in our hearts........our union with Christ if not shown to those around us, then all of our quotes from scripture are for the most part worthless, at least in the moment.  However, if a heart is open, then the seed planted will take root I believe in time. 

I have talked to some atheist, and many of them just don't accept any theories on 'theism', yet they talk about believing in something being out there....if pushed even many so called hard core atheist will come to that conclusion.  I believe many who say they are atheist are reacting to be bludgeoned by scriptures.  Though I do believe there are 'real' atheist out there.  They are the ones who are not angry or defensive from my limited experience.  I have also found that deism is a safe way for some to believe in a creator.....yet one who is impersonal and does not care one way or another what becomes of us.

Peace
Mark

[LuftWaffle]

21 hours ago, Bonky said:

Maybe others here can now understand how unbelievers feel when we're told that deep down, we really believe there is a God but we just don't want to admit it.  Or we don't want to give up our sinful ways.   Or we don't want to have to submit to an authority because we're so prideful.   I know you personally probably don't advocate such nonsense but there are many who do, we see it right here in this very thread.  

While I agree that Goldensharks comment is silly if taken too literal, I also understand the underlying message.  With regard to other god claims the Christian is freely able to reject them and say "I'm not convinced your God exists"...but this courtesy is not always extended to the non-believer of the Christian God concept.  

Hi Bonky,

The situation is very different for a Christian rejecting Zeus than for an atheist. As a Christian I can freely reject Zeus because Zeus is incompatible with Christianity. Since I believe Christianity is true, I can freely reject Zeus because both cannot be true. 
You on the other hand believe that atheism is a mere "lack of belief". I still maintain that this is a trick to avoid shouldering any burden of proof, but be that as it may, you claim that you have no beliefs regarding gods whatsoever, so you cannot reject Zeus because of any incompatibility with your view. Your view supposedly makes no claims, remember?

Secondly don't forget the standard atheist narrative, which is that atheists are smart people who are guided by reason and hard evidence, whereas theists are gullible and delusional.
So we cannot hold you to the same standard that we use, because according to your worldview our standard for believing what we believe- and rejecting what's contrary to that, is a bad standard.

According to atheist John Loftus the only reason we believe what we believe and reject other gods is because of where we were brought up.

So we cannot extend the same courtesy to you, because you're supposed to have a far superior standard of justification. We do not expect bad arguments, poor logic and sketchy evidence from atheists because atheists are always reminding us that they're good at argumentation, logic and evaluating evidence.

Right?

[Bonky]

 

Hi Bonky,

The situation is very different for a Christian rejecting Zeus than for an atheist. As a Christian I can freely reject Zeus because Zeus is incompatible with Christianity. Since I believe Christianity is true, I can freely reject Zeus because both cannot be true. 
You on the other hand believe that atheism is a mere "lack of belief". I still maintain that this is a trick to avoid shouldering any burden of proof, but be that as it may, you claim that you have no beliefs regarding gods whatsoever, so you cannot reject Zeus because of any incompatibility with your view. Your view supposedly makes no claims, remember?

I make no "God" claims correct.  Especially claims that outline details of such a being, what it wants from us, how to have a relationship with it/him/her etc.  

 

Secondly don't forget the standard atheist narrative, which is that atheists are smart people who are guided by reason and hard evidence, whereas theists are gullible and delusional. 

The standard narrative that I've encountered is that Christians don't appear to have good reasons to believe what they say they believe.  I think this is true for a large amount of professed Christians in America.  That being said I think Christianity is a part of American culture, which is different from actually being a dedicated sincere Christian.  By the way, I keep bringing up America because that's the only perspective I know.  I've never lived in another Country.

So we cannot hold you to the same standard that we use, because according to your worldview our standard for believing what we believe- and rejecting what's contrary to that, is a bad standard.

If you mean measuring everything against scripture then I would agree absolutely.  The mechanism to declare scripture as infallible and completely trustworthy is faith, something that I find has failed us so often in history.  I'm not sure that's what you were getting at however.

According to atheist John Loftus the only reason we believe what we believe and reject other gods is because of where we were brought up.

Certainly culture is a powerful influence, especially home culture.  I was brought up at a very young age going to church and even a Christian school and yet around my 30's I left the faith.  Being taught to be a Christian at the age of 5 isn't a choice by the child....staying a Christian into adulthood is a choice.

 

So we cannot extend the same courtesy to you, because you're supposed to have a far superior standard of justification. We do not expect bad arguments, poor logic and sketchy evidence from atheists because atheists are always reminding us that they're good at argumentation, logic and evaluating evidence.

Unfortunately the real reason why this courtesy isn't extended to us is because of what some believers think scripture teaches them.  That there aren't really any atheists, we're just lying about that so we can continue to live our sinful lives full of pride and arrogance.   I know there are atheists who are jerks, who make caricatures of Christians that are unfair.  I just wouldn't expect this same behavior to come from a book that is held as a book of wisdom from the creator of the Universe.

[siegi91]

On 6/17/2016 at 11:13 PM, HAZARD said:

G-Day siege, here's what I think / believe.

There's no such thing as an atheist according to the Bible, and I believe in God and what He has created and all He has revealed to us, after trying my hardest to prove there is no God, and the Bible is a fairy story, I failed miserably.  

I believe everyone, including you siege, has a natural deep desire to know, to understand why were here and where we will end up after death.

If one truly investigates the Word of God one finds over 130 declarations of God, revealing that He is God, and the only true God, in Psalms 93:9-11; Isa.40:12-31; 41:13-21; 44:6-8; 54:12-22; and, 3,808 times expressions as "Thus sayeth the lord." and "The Lord spake" and others show Him to be the author of the Bible Many times God declares Himself to be the creator of the worlds (Gen.1:1-2:25; Job 12:7-25; 38:1-41; 34; Ps. 8:1-9; 19:1-6; 102:25-28; Isa. 45:18; John 1:1-3; Eph. 3:9; Rev. 4:10-11; 14:7; and from Hebrews 1:3 we learn that He not only created all things, but that all things are upheld by His great power.

 

Romans 1:20-21, “For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse. Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.”

 Psalm 14:1, To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

It truly amazes me why self proclaimed athiest's even bother joining Christian forums, and some, after staying there for years, and reading much of what Christians think and believe, they remain, asking questions, making comments but never changing?

I have found over the years that not only do Athiest's deny God, some even attack Christianity and, in my opinion, they simply fail to understand what they are attacking and criticizing. The very fact that athiests continue over and over again to push God out of their mind, just shows He does indeed exist.

You wrote,

My reply to that statement is, ummm who are you talking to, or about, if not God?

I also don't believe in any god's. I believe in the one true God, the creator of everything. I don't believe in evolution, survival of the fittest,? When men allegedly evolved from apes as the fittest survivors, why are there still every species of monkey and apes on the Earth? 

John 1:3-5,

V. 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

V. 4, In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

V. 5, And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended1 it not.

When I read this particular Scripture;

John 6:44, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

I find it to be a wonder that many who claim to be atheists seek out Christians and places of Christian habitation. I am truly amazed because only God can draw darkness to light, IF He chooses. The ones who are drawn are unwillingly under conviction and chosen by God.

It is the ones who keep their beliefs, or lack thereof, quiet who really concern me. They are no longer crying out for help.

I do not believe in pixies at the end of the garden., and the last thing I would do is join a "We believe in Pixies board."

If your still reading, and I hope you are, you may find this interesting!

"The Bible is God's inspired revelation of the origin and destiny of all things. It is the power of God unto eternal salvation and it is the source of present help for the body, soul, and spirit (Rom. 1:16; John 15:7).

It is God's will and testament to men in all ages, revealing the plan of God for man here and now and in the next life. It is the record of God's dealings with man; past, present, and future. It contains God's message of eternal salvation to all people who believe in Christ and of eternal damnation to those who knowingly and willingly rebel against the gospel.

"Over forty different authors wrote the sixty six books of the Bible during a period of 1,800 years; and they all had one theme. The creation and redemption of the human race by God through Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

These books of the Bible were written by men from all walks of life such as Kings, Priests, Judges, lawyers, Princes, Shepherds, Soldiers, Courtiers, Statesmen, Musicians, Inventors, Singers, Poets, Preachers, Prophets, Fishermen, Farmers, Tentmakers, Publicans, Physicians, Rich men and Poor men.

They were written in various lands of three continents, Europe, Asia, and Africa. They were written in different ages and by many men, some who never saw each other or knew what the others wrote on the same subjects, yet when their writings were all assembled into one book, there is not one contradiction among them."

I believe each and every one of the individual authors were inspired to write the particular book or books that God inspired him to write.

Many if not most of them did not know each other, and even would have known what every and any other author was called and inspired by God to write if at all.

After all the books were finally written and were all compiled into one, they were in complete unison on every doctrine and they agreed with each other and they were then re-written several times over the years by other men of varying and even if only slightly differing religions who never knew any of the original authors.

Imagine forty scientists or forty doctors writing several books on a particular celestial discovery, or a cure for some exotic or well know disease, how much unity would there be between them?

G'day mate

You wrote: " I believe everyone, including you siege, has a natural deep desire to know, to understand why were here and where we will end up after death. "

To be honest with you, I don't ask too many "why" questions. I would, if I assumed a-priori that there are "becauses" or some teleology or purpose in the Universe. In other words, I would run the risk to get circular conclusions in no time. That does not entail, of course, that there is no purpose of our existence; I simply do not give it too much credence.

You wrote: "f one truly investigates the Word of God one finds over 130 declarations of God, revealing that He is God, and the only true God, in Psalms 93:9-11; Isa.40:12-31; 41:13-21; 44:6-8; 54:12-22; and, 3,808 times expressions as "Thus sayeth the lord." and "The Lord spake" and others show Him to be the author of the Bible Many times God declares Himself to be the creator of the worlds (Gen.1:1-2:25; Job 12:7-25; 38:1-41; 34; Ps. 8:1-9; 19:1-6; 102:25-28; Isa. 45:18; John 1:1-3; Eph. 3:9; Rev. 4:10-11; 14:7; and from Hebrews 1:3 we learn that He not only created all things, but that all things are upheld by His great power."

 

I think I would first need to believe that these statements are true, before appreciating them as evidence of God. Again, the risk of circular reasoning is always behind the corner. I always wondered: do you first need to believe in God, in order to believe the Bible, or is it the other way round?

 

You wrote: " have found over the years that not only do Athiest's deny God, some even attack Christianity and, in my opinion, they simply fail to understand what they are attacking and criticizing. The very fact that athiests continue over and over again to push God out of their mind, just shows He does indeed exist."

So, there are atheists, after all. Anyway, I cannot speak fora all atheists, but I do not push God out of my mind. I simply believe He does not exist. I believe many things do not exist, for instance I do not believe that Allah exists either. That surely does not entail that I try to push Allah out of my mind and, therefore, Allah exists. I hope we agree on that.

 

You wrote: "I find it to be a wonder that many who claim to be atheists seek out Christians and places of Christian habitation. I am truly amazed because only God can draw darkness to light, IF He chooses. The ones who are drawn are unwillingly under conviction and chosen by God."

There are people who like to engage with people with different point of views. It happens in science, politics, philosophy, and in many areas of human thought. I don't think we can draw any theological relevant conclusion from the fact that some atheists like to discuss with theists. I doubt, for instance, that a conservative criticizing the liberals all the time, is really a liberal or attracted by liberal thought, in some way or the other. Maybe some do, but we cannot warrant this conclusion, in general.

You wrote : "They were written in various lands of three continents, Europe, Asia, and Africa. They were written in different ages and by many men, some who never saw each other or knew what the others wrote on the same subjects, yet when their writings were all assembled into one book, there is not one contradiction among them.".""

This is probably due to its origin in the Middle East, that borders with all three continents. I think you would have a point if we had evidence of similar consistency coming from Japan, the Americas and, last but not least, Australia

 siegi

 

[HAZARD]

"So, there are atheists, after all. Anyway, I cannot speak fora all atheists, but I do not push God out of my mind. I simply believe He does not exist."

What about the fulfilled prophecy, things spoken of and predicted hundreds if not thousands of years ago?

[Running Gator]

We are told by Jesus " So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets. ".  I do not wish to have an athiest tell me what I believe thus I choose not to tell them what they believe. 

[HAZARD]

34 minutes ago, Out of the Shadows said:

We are told by Jesus " So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets. ".  I do not wish to have an athiest tell me what I believe thus I choose not to tell them what they believe. 

I'm not telling anyone what to believe, anyone can believe what they like? I'm saying I am a believer, and with all the evidence available I don't understand how anyone can say there is no God.

 

[siegi91]

43 minutes ago, HAZARD said:

 

 

What about the fulfilled prophecy, things spoken of and predicted hundreds if not thousands of years ago?

My fellow Jews do not accept them. They are still waiting for the main prophecy to be fulfilled.

And if they are not convinced, being religious and all, how do you expect a strong atheist like me to be convinced?