Messiah

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, Qnts2 said:

But you missed the article I posted written by the President of the UMJC, Russ Resnick, which opposes One Law. Don't confuse One Law with a covenantal responsibility of Jewish people. One Law teaches that the Mosaic law is binding on Gentiles who believe in Jesus. The UMJC does not believe the Mosaic law is binding on Gentiles so is opposed to One Law.

Note: Messianic Judaism embraces the fullness of New Covenant realities available through Yeshua, and seeks to express them in forms drawn from Jewish experience and accessible to Jewish people.

http://www.umjc.org/does-the-umjc-practice-conversion/

The issue is not whether Gentiles should or must become Jews to attain full status in the Body of Messiah. All Messianic Jews agree this issue was settled by the Apostles and Elders in Jerusalem in C.E. 49 (Acts 15). Believers from among the nations were not required to accept the yoke of the Torah, but only the basic biblical principles referred to as the Seven Laws of Noah in the rabbinic literature.

It should be noted that the paper referenced is a summary of a debate whether Gentiles who believe in Jesus and desire to be Jewish should have a method to convert to Judaism. This is an active and volitile debate in the UMJC. Some Gentiles are pressuring the UMJC to be allowed to be considered Jewish so some in the UMJC leadership have set up a practice of conversion. Others are extremely opposed to that as unbiblical. I land on the side of opposing Gentile believers to 'become Jewish', as I see it as in opposition to the NT. 

Qnts, You are not accurately reflecting things here. And quite frankly you are bringing into this some quite irrelevant stuff. It is diversionary I do believe.  I wish I could say it is out of ignorance but My experience and those of others over the past 20 + years makes me believe otherwise. It is word games and subtle definitions you are playing with here. Yes Russ Resnick disagrees with one law, but does he support divine invitation which this umjc paper supports? Since the doctrine of divine invitation is what the umjc appears to be supporting. It is just a "softer" approach to one law. And that sense was what was described by one video I watched After the doctrine was accepted, as an alternative. Divine invitation, is very well termed here where it speaks of "non Jewish groups"  having a "confirmed call". These non Jewish groups are keeping the ONE LAW incumbent upon Messianic JEWS, which is to fulfill the covenant responsibilities like messianic and non messianic Jews are to do. the differences are in approach. The document speaks for itself Qnts.

 

[spiderman1917]

My Mom still keeps Sabbath and Jewish dance holding hands in circles...this was like our basement growing up:

They know how to make Merry!

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Joline said:

Here is what the umjc says in it's defining of Messianic Judaism.

GROUPS.....May also include those from non-jewish backgrounds who have a confirmed called to participate fully in the life and destiny of The Jewish people.

Defining Messianic Judaism

Home / Core Values / Defining Messianic Judaism

 

 

Basic Statement

The Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations (UMJC) envisions Messianic Judaism as a movement of Jewish congregations and groups committed to Yeshua the Messiah that embrace the covenantal responsibility of Jewish life and identity rooted in Torah, expressed in tradition, and renewed and applied in the context of the New Covenant. Messianic Jewish groups may also include those from non-Jewish backgrounds who have a confirmed call to participate fully in the life and destiny of the Jewish people. We are committed to embodying this definition in our constituent congregations and in our shared institutions.

Expanded Statement

Jewish life is life in a concrete, historical community. Thus, Messianic Jewish groups must be fully part of the Jewish people, sharing its history and its covenantal responsibility as a people chosen by God. At the same time, faith in Yeshua also has a crucial communal dimension. This faith unites the Messianic Jewish community and the Christian Church, which is the assembly of the faithful from the nations who are joined to Israel through the Messiah.  Together the Messianic Jewish community and the Christian Church constitute the ekklesia, the one Body of Messiah, a community of Jews and Gentiles who in their ongoing distinction and mutual blessing anticipate the shalom of the world to come.

For a Messianic Jewish group 1) to fulfill the covenantal responsibility incumbent upon all Jews, 2) to bear witness to Yeshua within the people of Israel, and 3) to serve as an authentic and effective representative of the Jewish people within the body of Messiah, it must place a priority on integration with  the wider Jewish world, while sustaining a vital corporate relationship with the Christian Church.
s, 2) to bear witness to Yeshua within the people of Israel, and 3) to serve as an authentic and effective representative of the Jewish people within the body of Messiah, it must place a priority on integration with  the wider Jewish world, while sustaining a vital corporate relationship with the Christian Church.

In the Messianic Jewish way of life, we seek to fulfill Israel’s covenantal responsibility embodied in the Torah within a New Covenant context. Messianic Jewish halakhah is rooted in Scripture (Tanakh and the New Covenant writings), which is of unique sanctity and authority. It also draws upon Jewish tradition, especially those practices and concepts that have won near-universal acceptance by devout Jews through the centuries. Furthermore, as is common within Judaism, Messianic Judaism recognizes that halakhah is and must be dynamic, involving the application of the Torah to a wide variety of changing situations and circumstances.

Messianic Judaism embraces the fullness of New Covenant realities available through Yeshua, and seeks to express them in forms drawn from Jewish experience and accessible to Jewish people.

UMJC Theology Committee; affirmed by delegate vote, July 20, 2005.

A curious mention above.

A confirmed call to share in

The life and destiny of the Jewish people.

I wonder what life and destiny these specific groups of Gentiles, Believe they are invited to share in, that is distinct from the life and destiny all believers have a share in Christ? What life and destiny do Jewish believers have, that Gentile believers are missing, apart from this confirmed call? Isnt Christ the source of our life and destiny we seek? Jew and Gentile alike?

[Qnts2]

8 hours ago, Joline said:

A curious mention above.

A confirmed call to share in

The life and destiny of the Jewish people.

I wonder what life and destiny these specific groups of Gentiles, Believe they are invited to share in, that is distinct from the life and destiny all believers have a share in Christ? What life and destiny do Jewish believers have, that Gentile believers are missing, apart from this confirmed call? Isnt Christ the source of our life and destiny we seek? Jew and Gentile alike?

And you are confirming what I have repeatedly said. You do not understand Messianic Judaism, and are applying whatever comes into your mind which you view as evil. You misinterpret continually.

 

[Guest]

10 hours ago, Qnts2 said:

26 minutes ago, Qnts2 said:

And you are confirming what I have repeatedly said. You do not understand Messianic Judaism, and are applying whatever comes into your mind which you view as evil. You misinterpret continually.

 

 

26 minutes ago, Qnts2 said:

And you are confirming what I have repeatedly said. You do not understand Messianic Judaism, and are applying whatever comes into your mind which you view as evil. You misinterpret continually.

 

But you missed the article I posted written by the President of the UMJC, Russ Resnick, which opposes One Law. Don't confuse One Law with a covenantal responsibility of Jewish people. One Law teaches that the Mosaic law is binding on Gentiles who believe in Jesus. The UMJC does not believe the Mosaic law is binding on Gentiles so is opposed to One Law.

Note: Messianic Judaism embraces the fullness of New Covenant realities available through Yeshua, and seeks to express them in forms drawn from Jewish experience and accessible to Jewish people.

http://www.umjc.org/does-the-umjc-practice-conversion/

The issue is not whether Gentiles should or must become Jews to attain full status in the Body of Messiah. All Messianic Jews agree this issue was settled by the Apostles and Elders in Jerusalem in C.E. 49 (Acts 15). Believers from among the nations were not required to accept the yoke of the Torah, but only the basic biblical principles referred to as the Seven Laws of Noah in the rabbinic literature.

It should be noted that the paper referenced is a summary of a debate whether Gentiles who believe in Jesus and desire to be Jewish should have a method to convert to Judaism. This is an active and volitile debate in the UMJC. Some Gentiles are pressuring the UMJC to be allowed to be considered Jewish so some in the UMJC leadership have set up a practice of conversion. Others are extremely opposed to that as unbiblical. I land on the side of opposing Gentile believers to 'become Jewish', as I see it as in opposition to the NT. 

I should also be noted, that the UMJC strongly opposes One Law and the definition of covenental responsibility of Jewish believers is widely different. The UMJC does not practice an Orthodox form of Judaism, and those who do practice a form of Kosher, will eat with Gentiles when the Gentiles serve non-kosher food to maintain fellowship with all believers.  

From the UMJC statement of faith:

Messiah’s community is a single community expressed in diverse forms within the Jewish community and among the nations. All are called to a dedicated life of worship, neighborly service, and public testimony to Yeshua. Unity and love throughout the entire community confirm Yeshua’s role, as the One sent by the Father, and God’s purpose in Messiah for Israel and the Nations.

That statement means that the UMJC recognizes that all believers in Jesus are one community, (Jews, Gentiles, whether a person identifies as Messianic or Christian). This statement was added as some wanted to separate from Christianity as a different religion. So, this statement was added to oppose a separation mentality of some as all believers are one. 

1) Look at your last statement on the subject......Which confirms EXACTLY what I said. This document was written because there was a PROBLEM, that you have denied existing..........I quote

"because some wanted to separate from Christianity as a different religion, so this statement was added to oppose a separation mentality of some.......

2) As well as conversion through circumcision was not the foundation for one law, so the mention of that issue has nothing to do with it. Circumcision became an issue among some one law groups. It was something that began to grow out of it, but was never the basis of it. So your reference to the council of acts says nothing about the roots of one law groups. This should be a no brainer Qnts. Of course one law among Jew's is taught and practiced. There was no controversy concerning a Gentile becoming a Jew by conversion, keeping one law. The controversy concerned Gentiles. It wasn't about Gentiles becoming Jews. Even you acknowledge this in the beginning of your post. It was about the non converts, Gentiles keeping the law. So why bring up the issue of conversion, as though it had anything to do with the foundation of one law doctrine?

 

[Guest]

. therefore the olive tree is Israel

1 hour ago, Qnts2 said:

And you are confirming what I have repeatedly said. You do not understand Messianic Judaism, and are applying whatever comes into your mind which you view as evil. You misinterpret continually.

 

From past experience, I believe I do understand what it has to do with. there were various nuances of belief concerning approach, but the following is my take on connecting the dots here. those nuances were merely differing views on these things, which all reached the same goal

1. The council decision in acts was said to be a minimum standard for Gentiles to be accepted in the Synagogues. Which they believed this passage spoke about that requirement. Then being accepted, they would learn from their. The passage was seen as upholding synagogue attendance and begin learning Torah.

2. They believed and taught that the New Covenant made with Jew's/ israel. Gentiles on their own had no promises, nor covenant with God.

3. They believed and taught, the tree of Ephesians is Israel, and or the kingdom of God which belonged to Israel in promise. (see above #2)

Seeing that these things were taught, I believe these statements made in the umjc document reflect those teachings, no matter any details may have been changed.

So we have

Gentiles  going to synagogues to learn torah in Christ.

Gentiles not being party to the promises on their own.  Only Israel and those non Jew's which sojourned among them

Gentiles being joined to Israel as The new covenant was not made with them. Only Israel and Judah, therefore gentiles which are graffed into Israel (equal to a gentile sojourner) shares in the messianic FULL destiny of Israel.

 

[Qnts2]

10 minutes ago, Joline said:

. therefore the olive tree is Israel

From past experience, I believe I do understand what it has to do with. there were various nuances of belief concerning approach, but the following is my take on connecting the dots here. those nuances were merely differing views on these things, which all reached the same goal

1. The council decision in acts was said to be a minimum standard for Gentiles to be accepted in the Synagogues. Which they believed this passage spoke about that requirement. Then being accepted, they would learn from their. The passage was seen as upholding synagogue attendance and begin learning Torah.

2. They believed and taught that the New Covenant made with Jew's/ israel. Gentiles on their own had no promises, nor covenant with God.

3. They believed and taught, the tree of Ephesians is Israel, and or the kingdom of God which belonged to Israel in promise. (see above #2)

Seeing that these things were taught, I believe these statements made in the umjc document reflect those teachings, no matter any details may have been changed.

So we have

Gentiles  going to synagogues to learn torah in Christ.

Gentiles not being party to the promises on their own.  Only Israel and those non Jew's which sojourned among them

Gentiles being joined to Israel as The new covenant was not made with them. Only Israel and Judah, therefore gentiles which are graffed into Israel (equal to a gentile sojourner) shares in the messianic FULL destiny of Israel.

 

In Messianic Judaism, it is very clear that Gentiles are not, according to the Jerusalem council, required to keep the Mosaic covenant.

Your points are true of One Law theology but NOT Messianic Judaism.

[Qnts2]

41 minutes ago, Joline said:

1) Look at your last statement on the subject......Which confirms EXACTLY what I said. This document was written because there was a PROBLEM, that you have denied existing..........I quote

"because some wanted to separate from Christianity as a different religion, so this statement was added to oppose a separation mentality of some.......

2) As well as conversion through circumcision was not the foundation for one law, so the mention of that issue has nothing to do with it. Circumcision became an issue among some one law groups. It was something that began to grow out of it, but was never the basis of it. So your reference to the council of acts says nothing about the roots of one law groups. This should be a no brainer Qnts. Of course one law among Jew's is taught and practiced. There was no controversy concerning a Gentile becoming a Jew by conversion, keeping one law. The controversy concerned Gentiles. It wasn't about Gentiles becoming Jews. Even you acknowledge this in the beginning of your post. It was about the non converts, Gentiles keeping the law. So why bring up the issue of conversion, as though it had anything to do with the foundation of one law doctrine?

 

The problem did not exist in Messianic Judaism beliefs. The problem existed with some who attended Messianic Judaism synagogues so the point was made to combat the error of some attendees of Messianic Judaism synagogues. It is a leadership correction.

The discussion in One Law as far as conversion has nothing to do with the discussion within Messianic Judaism. Messianic Judaism rejects One Law, and I have provided sufficient proof of paper after paper, but as I've said, you refuse to believe what is clearly written by Messianic Judaism leaders as the stance of Messianic Judaism.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Qnts2 said:

In Messianic Judaism, it is very clear that Gentiles are not, according to the Jerusalem council, required to keep the Mosaic covenant.

Your points are true of One Law theology but NOT Messianic Judaism.

You still have not answered my question qnts. So I will ask you

What is the life and destiny that Israel has, that Gentiles do not have apart from Israel in Christ?

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, Qnts2 said:

The problem did not exist in Messianic Judaism beliefs. The problem existed with some who attended Messianic Judaism synagogues so the point was made to combat the error of some attendees of Messianic Judaism synagogues. It is a leadership correction.

The discussion in One Law as far as conversion has nothing to do with the discussion within Messianic Judaism. Messianic Judaism rejects One Law, and I have provided sufficient proof of paper after paper, but as I've said, you refuse to believe what is clearly written by Messianic Judaism leaders as the stance of Messianic Judaism.

The last paragraph tells us this was an issue, a problem. So, you say with some who attended Messianic congregations.

You are splitting hairs here. They attended Messianic congregations, but they were just Gentiles, which did not accept the Messianic teachings? And these Gentiles all on their own developed these ideas? Yet still attended their Messianic congregations? I will assure you, there was a time (as you know well) that many Messianic Jews, were teaching one law. But, have of recent events, adopted the softer approach of divine invitation. Since that time all those Messianic Jew's have ceased participation of this sort on the forums.

Which is a divine invitation to share in the destiny and life of Israel.

What does that mean btw? Could you please give us your take on this?