"Prayer Language"

[Alan Hales]

On ‎14‎/‎05‎/‎2016 at 2:36 AM, post said:

the other verse that i usually hear in this context is the following:

For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit.
(1 Corinthians 14:2) 

and this is usually the "aha!" verse -- "see! no one understands them! it is an unknown tongue." 
but Paul is speaking of anyone who speaks in a tongue -- not a special group who speak in a specifically non-human language. so the question in my mind now is, is "speaking in tongues" supposed to be always an unnatural, non-earthly language? but the example at pentecost was that people understood them - which doesn't seem to jive with that idea, and gives me pause about just what Paul is talking about here, because he seems to be addressing tongues in a very general way, not a specific 'type' of un-human language. 

there is also that there is no mention of "prayer" here at all ((nor in chapter 13 of the same epistle)) -- it is speaking, and being contrasted with prophesying ((so that others can be edified)). 
so the connection to "prayer language" is tenuous at best, it seems. 

in fact, i don't know of anywhere in the scripture where prayer is made in a way that the person praying does not understand what they are saying, or that those hearing don't understand -- other than Romans 8:26, which seems to be expressly not only un-vocalized, but expressly impossible to be vocalized. and here it is the Spirit doing the praying -- not the person. i think it is perfectly safe to assume that the Spirit understands what He is interceding with! 

the whole notion of praying in a way that others cannot understand seems contrary to the way that Jesus taught to pray, and how the scripture generally presents the topic of prayer -- it is not for others to hear; it is directed towards the "Father, who sees what is done in secret" ((Matthew 6:6)) and God alone. prayer that is otherwise directed ((for the sake of others to hear)) seems to me to be better matched with the prayer of the pharisees, who loved to pray publicly with great flowing words so everyone could hear them. at least as far as how Jesus teaches us. 

so this is not about prayer in the first place, and making it about prayer may lead to what would be a very wrong attitude about prayer. 


i'm not any expert on this -- looking for your thoughts and understanding, and sort of hashing out in text what my thoughts have been. 
please correct me where i am off-track. 


thanks
 

There are at least six operations of tongues that are recorded in the Bible, Foreign languages, [Acts 2: 4--11], Are just one of them.

 

As for Rom 8: 26, That's another operation of tongues, The meaning of, "Cannot be uttered", is, "Cannot be expressed by our native tongue", But the Holy Spirit need our tongue to intercede for us, Or else how would we know when He is interceding for Us?

Those of us who do pray in tongues, Know when the Holy Spirit takes over and intercedes for us, as the tongue changes.

Sometimes the Holy Spirit tells me what He is interceding for, other time He gives me a vision and other times He cries through me, then after some time the sadness turn to joy and laughter as the Holy Spirit's intercession has got the victory for someone, something, or for myself.

[Behold]

Lets end the confusion about "prayer language and "gift of tongues".

The reason there is confusion about this simple issue, is that many dont realize, or have not been correctly taught to understand  that the spiritual gift of "tongues", is not the same as a "prayer language".

The Gift of Tongues, is the literal gift of being able to speak a foreign language, that you have never learned, for the benefit of the HEARER.

A prayer language, also knows as "tongues of angels" and "groanings that cant be uttered" is a situation that is self edifying, and is for the believer's prayer life and sometimes occurs when a person is born again.

So, one is a spiritual gift, and the other is a self edifying personal experience.

If your minister or your denomination does not teach you the difference then they are wrong and confused in their theology, but that does not mean you have to remain wrong and confused in yours, does it?

Just remember that the "gift of tongues" is  the "gift of a foreign language" and is for the HEARER....., and a prayer language is for the believer regarding their personal prayer life.

[Alan Hales]

2 hours ago, Behold said:

Lets end the confusion about "prayer language and "gift of tongues".

The reason there is confusion about this simple issue, is that many dont realize, or have not been correctly taught to understand  that the spiritual gift of "tongues", is not the same as a "prayer language".

The Gift of Tongues, is the literal gift of being able to speak a foreign language, that you have never learned, for the benefit of the HEARER.

A prayer language, also knows as "tongues of angels" and "groanings that cant be uttered" is a situation that is self edifying, and is for the believer's prayer life and sometimes occurs when a person is born again.

So, one is a spiritual gift, and the other is a self edifying personal experience.

If your minister or your denomination does not teach you the difference then they are wrong and confused in their theology, but that does not mean you have to remain wrong and confused in yours, does it?

Just remember that the "gift of tongues" is  the "gift of a foreign language" and is for the HEARER....., and a prayer language is for the believer regarding their personal prayer life.

The "Gift of tongues", Is one of the gifts of the Spirit that's found in 1 Cor 12, See "Gifts" in V1, 4 And "Given", V 7.

The gift of tongues is for an interpretation, See  V 10, & V 30, PLEASE NOTE,  tongues and interpretation go together both in V 10 and V30.

Nowhere doe Acts 2: 4--11 say these tongues are a gift, It's the Holy Ghost who is the gift, and tongues are the Biblical evidence of the baptism in the Holy Ghost.

There are at least six operations of tongues  that's recorded in the Bible. And foreign language are just one of them, A tongue that need an interpretation is another one of them.

 

"Groaning's that cannot be uttered" Is the Holy Ghost interceding for us, Not our prayer language, or to edify us, As they are different operations.

When we speak in tongues, It could be to edify us, it could be to speak mysteries [Secrets to be revealed], it could be our spirit prying, it could be singing,

it could be a foreign language, It could be a tongue for an interpretation, [That's why Paul said to interpret the tongue]. it could be the Holy Spirit interceding for us.

In my experience, is when I'm praying in tongues,[My spirit praying}, then if the Holy Spirit takes over and  intercedes, The tongues change.

 

So, Just remember, All tongues are given by the giver, [The Holy Spirit], and the "Gift of tongues", is for interpreting.

[Behold]

4 minutes ago, Alan Hales said:

The "Gift of tongues", Is one of the gifts of the Spirit that's found in 1 Cor 12, See "Gifts" in V1, 4 And "Given", V 7.

The gift of tongues is for an interpretation, See  V 10, & V 30, PLEASE NOTE,  tongues and interpretation go together both in V 10 and V30.

Nowhere doe Acts 2: 4--11 say these tongues are a gift, It's the Holy Ghost who is the gift, and tongues are the Biblical evidence of the baptism in the Holy Ghost.

There are at least six operations of tongues  that's recorded in the Bible. And foreign language are just one of them, A tongue that need an interpretation is another one of them.

 

"Groaning's that cannot be uttered" Is the Holy Ghost interceding for us, Not our prayer language, or to edify us, As they are different operations.

When we speak in tongues, It could be to edify us, it could be to speak mysteries [Secrets to be revealed], it could be our spirit prying, it could be singing,

it could be a foreign language, It could be a tongue for an interpretation, [That's why Paul said to interpret the tongue]. it could be the Holy Spirit interceding for us.

In my experience, is when I'm praying in tongues,[My spirit praying}, then if the Holy Spirit takes over and  intercedes, The tongues change.

 

So, Just remember, All tongues are given by the giver, [The Holy Spirit], and the "Gift of tongues", is for interpreting.

The gift of tongues were first used in Act 2...

Peter ....

⁸ And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

⁹ Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,

 

= Gift of TONGUES ARE A FOREIGN LANGUAGE.

 

So, Alan,  what you need to do, is stop reading commentaries and just read the New Testamant., as commentaries are the #1 reason that believers end up in a theological mess.

 

[Alan Hales]

1 hour ago, Behold said:

The gift of tongues were first used in Act 2...

Peter ....

⁸ And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

⁹ Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,

 

= Gift of TONGUES ARE A FOREIGN LANGUAGE.

 

So, Alan,  what you need to do, is stop reading commentaries and just read the New Testamant., as commentaries are the #1 reason that believers end up in a theological mess.

 

Where does Acts 2: 4--11, say those tongues are a gift??, NOWHERE, The Biblical Gift of tongues is found in 1 Cor 12: 10,  Listed among the other eight gifts, As I have shown you.

You are giving your own opinions, whereas I am giving you what the Bible call the gift of tongues. [And I didn't get it from any commentary, I got it from the Bible.

The tongues in Acts 2, are just one of the operations of tongues that God gives whenever needed, And foreign languages was needed on the day of Pentecost, To tell the people the wonderful works of God.

The gift is the Holy Spirit, and tongues are one of  the operations of the Spirit.

 

Edited August 13, 2016 by Alan Hales

[Behold]

17 minutes ago, Alan Hales said:

Where does Acts 2: 4--11, say those tongues are a gift??, NOWHERE, The Biblical Gift of tongues is found in 1 Cor 12: 10, 

-

⁸ And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

⁹ Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,

= Gift of TONGUES ARE A FOREIGN LANGUAGE.

 

Alan, do you see all those foreign languages?

Those are all represented by """Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,""

And Peter was given the "gift of foreign languages" so that those listed could understand.....and that is why they said..."we HEAR in our own LANGUAGE".

 

So, see how the New Testament gets it right every time, while commentaries get it wrong most of the time??

 

 

B

[Demi777]

Tongues and Interpretation

Tongues are Spirit-directed languages from heaven. They are unknown, even to the one who speaks them. When people speak in tongues the Holy Spirit anoints them and they are spiritually edified (strengthened and built up) through union with God. This edification happens without one ever knowing what is said. Such edification is experienced individually by the one who prays in tongues.

The Holy Spirit edifies the church body of believers much differently. For the entire group of believers to be edified, tongues must be followed with an interpretation (1 Corinthians 14:4). The interpretation of tongues is given in the language of the congregation. It encourages the people and moves them to praise and worship the Lord. The interpretation is not necessarily word for word. Rather it expresses what the Spirit is saying in a way that is clear and understood by all. This is necessary in any translation. For example, Psalm 23:1 is only four words in Hebrew, but it consists of nine words in English in the King James Version and eleven words in the New International Version.

Some say the gift of tongues is not important for it is mentioned last. However, the order in the various lists is not always the same. All the gifts are important.

The apostle Paul did not neglect tongues for he said, “I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you” (1 Corinthians 14:18). In the same chapter he also said, “Do not forbid speaking in tongues” (14:39). Paul asked only that “everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way” in the worship service (14:40).

The whole Bible from Genesis to Revelation emphasizes that God is a speaking God. Perhaps that is one reason why Paul in 1 Corinthians 12 to 14 gives so much attention to tongues, interpretation, and prophecy, with special emphasis on the importance and value of prophecy to edify the believers and touch the hearts of unbelievers. That is what happened when Peter stood up to speak on the Day of Pentecost. He spoke as he was inspired by the Spirit, and the Father in heaven opened their ears to understand what Peter was saying to them in their own language.. Peter didn’t prepare or develop the message beforehand. The Holy Spirit spoke through him as a gift of prophecy. As a result 3,000 were saved and added to the Church.

 

 

1 Corinthians 14:2 (NASB)

2 For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.

 

1 Corinthians 14:4 (NASB)

4 One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church.

 

Here we can see that it is our spirit that is praying and the person activates with his will this devotional praying with his spirit or with his mind. verse 15

 

1 Corinthians 14:14-15 (NASB)

14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.

 

15 What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.

 

There is also a tongues and interpretation which is used mostly in the church assembly setting and it is as the Spirit of God wills and not us. This type of "tongues" is used to edify or build up the church. 1 Cor. 14:5, 26-27

 

Tongues plus interpretation of tongues when being used to build up believers other then ourselves is the same as prophecy. Here is what prophecy is supposed to do.

 

1 Corinthians 14:3 (NASB)

3 But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation.

 

Proof that Paul was speaking about unknown tounges, not known languages

1 Corinthians 13:1 (KJV)

1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am becomeas sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

1 Corinthians 14:2 (NASB)

2 For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands,

but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.

 

1 Corinthians 14:4 (NASB)

4 One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church.

 

1 Corinthians 14:5 (NASB)

5 Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying.

 

1 Corinthians 14:10 (NASB)

10 There are, perhaps, a great many kinds of languages in the world, and no kind is without meaning.

 

1 Corinthians 14:14-15 (NASB)

14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.

 

( The person's spirit is praying in tongues here - not his mind which would be in a "known" language )

 

15 What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.

 

( See, the two kinds of praying - one with the spirit of a person - the other with the mind - which would be a "known" language )

 

1 Corinthians 14:18 (NASB)

18 I thank God, I speak in tongues more than you all;

 

It's very clear that Paul is talking about a supernatural language that the speaker does not know that the Holy Spirit gives utterance to our spirit to speak mysteries to our Father and Lord.

 

I am always amazed at the lengths some go to take out the supernatural aspect of the Holy Spirit in our lives and we end up living on our own human reasoning. Forbid not to speak in tongues.

 

Tongues will cease when knowledge vanishes away. 1 Cor 13:8

 

1 Corinthians 14:39 (NASB)

39 Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues.

 

( why in the world would they forbid someone from speaking a language they know with their own mind? )

 

(((((1 Corinthians 14:28 (NASB)

28 but if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God.))))

Edited August 13, 2016 by Demi777

[Alan Hales]

1 hour ago, Behold said:

-

⁸ And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

⁹ Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,

= Gift of TONGUES ARE A FOREIGN LANGUAGE.

 

Alan, do you see all those foreign languages?

Those are all represented by """Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,""

And Peter was given the "gift of foreign languages" so that those listed could understand.....and that is why they said..."we HEAR in our own LANGUAGE".

 

So, see how the New Testament gets it right every time, while commentaries get it wrong most of the time??

 

 

B

As I said, Where does Acts 2: 4--11 say those tongues are "The gift of tongues"??.

Peter and the rest were given the gift of the Holy Ghost, Acts 2: 38. And tongues is a manifestation of the gift of the Holy Ghost.

At least I have given scriptures that say the tongues for interpreting are the gift of tongues, Whereas you haven't given me any scriptures that say the tongues in Acts 2, are the gift of tongues.  If you are going to use  foreign languages as the "Gift of tongues", Then you'll have to say the other operations of tongues, are the Gift of tongues as well.

 

The New Testament does get it right, But you haven't got it right.

[Behold]

1 minute ago, Alan Hales said:

As I said, Where does Acts 2: 4--11 say those tongues are "The gift of tongues"??.

Peter and the rest were given the gift of the Holy Ghost, Acts 2: 38. And tongues is a manifestation of the gift of the Holy Ghost.

At least I have given scriptures that say the tongues for interpreting are the gift of tongues, Whereas you haven't given me any scriptures that say the tongues in Acts 2, are the gift of tongues.  If you are going to use  foreign languages as the "Gift of tongues", Then you'll have to say the other operations of tongues, are the Gift of tongues as well.

 

The New Testament does get it right, But you haven't got it right.

⁸ And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

⁹ Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,

= Gift of TONGUES ARE A FOREIGN LANGUAGE.

 

Alan, do you see all those foreign languages?

Those are all represented by """Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,""

And Peter was given the "gift of foreign languages" so that those listed could understand.....and that is why they said..."we HEAR in our own LANGUAGE".

----------------

----------

Alan, keep reading this over and over     ^^^^^^^^^^^  until you realize that Peter is speaking in "TONGUES" (foreign languages)  = (Gift of).

Once you recognize this, then you'll understand it, and once you do, we can move on.

[Alan Hales]

22 minutes ago, Demi777 said:

Tongues and Interpretation

Tongues are Spirit-directed languages from heaven. They are unknown, even to the one who speaks them. When people speak in tongues the Holy Spirit anoints them and they are spiritually edified (strengthened and built up) through union with God. This edification happens without one ever knowing what is said. Such edification is experienced individually by the one who prays in tongues.

The Holy Spirit edifies the church body of believers much differently. For the entire group of believers to be edified, tongues must be followed with an interpretation (1 Corinthians 14:4). The interpretation of tongues is given in the language of the congregation. It encourages the people and moves them to praise and worship the Lord. The interpretation is not necessarily word for word. Rather it expresses what the Spirit is saying in a way that is clear and understood by all. This is necessary in any translation. For example, Psalm 23:1 is only four words in Hebrew, but it consists of nine words in English in the King James Version and eleven words in the New International Version.

Some say the gift of tongues is not important for it is mentioned last. However, the order in the various lists is not always the same. All the gifts are important.

The apostle Paul did not neglect tongues for he said, “I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you” (1 Corinthians 14:18). In the same chapter he also said, “Do not forbid speaking in tongues” (14:39). Paul asked only that “everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way” in the worship service (14:40).

The whole Bible from Genesis to Revelation emphasizes that God is a speaking God. Perhaps that is one reason why Paul in 1 Corinthians 12 to 14 gives so much attention to tongues, interpretation, and prophecy, with special emphasis on the importance and value of prophecy to edify the believers and touch the hearts of unbelievers. That is what happened when Peter stood up to speak on the Day of Pentecost. He spoke as he was inspired by the Spirit, and the Father in heaven opened their ears to understand what Peter was saying to them in their own language.. Peter didn’t prepare or develop the message beforehand. The Holy Spirit spoke through him as a gift of prophecy. As a result 3,000 were saved and added to the Church.

 

 

1 Corinthians 14:2 (NASB)

2 For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.

 

1 Corinthians 14:4 (NASB)

4 One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church.

 

Here we can see that it is our spirit that is praying and the person activates with his will this devotional praying with his spirit or with his mind. verse 15

 

1 Corinthians 14:14-15 (NASB)

14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.

 

15 What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.

 

There is also a tongues and interpretation which is used mostly in the church assembly setting and it is as the Spirit of God wills and not us. This type of "tongues" is used to edify or build up the church. 1 Cor. 14:5, 26-27

 

Tongues plus interpretation of tongues when being used to build up believers other then ourselves is the same as prophecy. Here is what prophecy is supposed to do.

 

1 Corinthians 14:3 (NASB)

3 But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation.

 

Proof that Paul was speaking about unknown tounges, not known languages

1 Corinthians 13:1 (KJV)

1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am becomeas sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

1 Corinthians 14:2 (NASB)

2 For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands,

but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.

 

1 Corinthians 14:4 (NASB)

4 One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church.

 

1 Corinthians 14:5 (NASB)

5 Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying.

 

1 Corinthians 14:10 (NASB)

10 There are, perhaps, a great many kinds of languages in the world, and no kind is without meaning.

 

1 Corinthians 14:14-15 (NASB)

14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.

 

( The person's spirit is praying in tongues here - not his mind which would be in a "known" language )

 

15 What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.

 

( See, the two kinds of praying - one with the spirit of a person - the other with the mind - which would be a "known" language )

 

1 Corinthians 14:18 (NASB)

18 I thank God, I speak in tongues more than you all;

 

It's very clear that Paul is talking about a supernatural language that the speaker does not know that the Holy Spirit gives utterance to our spirit to speak mysteries to our Father and Lord.

 

I am always amazed at the lengths some go to take out the supernatural aspect of the Holy Spirit in our lives and we end up living on our own human reasoning. Forbid not to speak in tongues.

 

Tongues will cease when knowledge vanishes away. 1 Cor 13:8

 

1 Corinthians 14:39 (NASB)

39 Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues.

 

( why in the world would they forbid someone from speaking a language they know with their own mind? )

 

(((((1 Corinthians 14:28 (NASB)

28 but if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God.))))

Speak to himself and to God, "In tongues", [Not cease to speak in tongues], But If there is no interpreter in the meeting, don't give a tongues that needs an interpretation, Just speak in tongues to yourself and to God.