IreneM Posted February 27, 2005 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 80 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 700 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/12/2004 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 27, 2005 oops sorry hit wrong button anyway Christ said IT IS FINISHED meaning the price had been paid for sin. David and Moses were punished in this life for the sin yes we sometimes pay for our sins as all humans do but Paul said when we confess our sins they are forgiven so if forgiven why must we still pay for them in the next life that does not make sense what you are saying is that yes they are forgiven if not real big sins for those we must pay in the next life. But Jesus did not say that nore did the apostles nor did Paul.............there is no scriptue for that.......... Kath I am not trying to bug you on this but tradtion in this case does not hold water........................... and the scripture you quoted made clear that they were punished in this life............. being raised a catholic made me afraid of any and everyhing did not want to sin was afraid of all things worldy afraid I would not messure up I have learned we all sin but that we are fogiven and that we do have an advocit with the Father and that is Jesus Christ and that I can go to Him and honestly repent and know that I am forgiven . Now instead of living in constant fear I am free form that fear and am now able to live as Christ intended do I sin yes am I a sinner Yes but I also know that Jesus paid the price for that sin and died for me so that I could have eternal life with Him when I honestly repent of those sins. I do not tell them to a priest any more who is a sinner just like me but I go to the Lord and confess repent and know that they are forgiven.............. I was baptised as an infant sure but at the age of 16 was also baptised in a christian church knowing that this time it was done by free will and with full knowledge of what I was doing. Hugs kath In Christ IreneM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IreneM Posted February 28, 2005 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 80 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 700 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/12/2004 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 28, 2005 sorry for this extra reply but would like to say that for me =========== the death on the Cross was enough for me the Blood of Jesus covers my sins all of them to say that we need pergatory is saying that the Blood of Jesus was not enough and it was. The blood of the sacrifce in the old testament was enough and the blood of Jesus is enough to say otherwise is saying that HIS death was not good enough was not big enough was not rightious enough ............A sinless sacrifce was not enough Sorry kath but on this one issue we can not agree................ In Christ Irene Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anne Posted February 28, 2005 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 923 Content Per Day: 0.13 Reputation: 32 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/14/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/03/1974 Share Posted February 28, 2005 Irene M You took the words right out of my mouth, if we were to believe what Kath has put forward, then we would be saying that the Blood Jesus Christ shed on the Cross, was not enough, and that simply isn't true, in fact i'd go so far as to say it would be an insult to our Heavenly Father if we believed the sacrifice He made was in vain. Your Sister in Christ Jesus Anne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katholish Posted February 28, 2005 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 86 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/10/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted February 28, 2005 I disagree, baptism is not nescessary for salvation, the blood that Jesus Christ shed on the cross is what is necessary for salvation, baptism is an outward declaration of your faith. I understand. I am merely trying to show what and why Catholics take our Lord's words to indicate the necessaity of Baptism and its sacramental character. I pray that you will recognise the saviour that died on the cross for you. The Catholic Church is founded on that belief, and I certainly do recognize it. But I Still don't understand what it is that you believe will get you into Heaven. It is Christ that brings a soul to Heaven. What is necessary for this is a somewhat different matter, but it is important to keep in mind the ultimate cause. It is only because of God's love (a love so great that He sent His only-begotten Son) that we can attain the Beatific Vision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serotta Posted February 28, 2005 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 496 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/18/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/20/1959 Share Posted February 28, 2005 there are some traditons that are not scriptual but I don't want to digress here In most cases people believe that Salvation comes when old enough to understand what Christ did for us. For catholics it comes when a baby is baptised Do you not see something wrong with this?? Also when Christ died He said <{POST_SNAPBACK}> IreneM, I think you should be careful. This is the kind of post that will lead to this being just another Catholic bashing thread. Infant baptism is not the ONLY thing necessary for salvation; that is quite simply perposterous. That's why Catholics have their first communion and confirmation at different ages. Katholish, please correct me if I'm wrong, but a child "makes his first communion" around age 9 because until then they are not able to comprehend the sacrifice the Christ made and is represented in the Eucharist. Then Confirmation is around 13, when a growing child is recognized as a full member of the parish. Infant baptism is not solely a Catholic tradition. The premise for this thread is a good one, but I think we should look at common ground first and then explore differences after. Roman Catholicism IS a Christian religion; one of the founding Christian religions along with Eastern Orthodox. Let's approach this respectfully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katholish Posted February 28, 2005 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 86 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/10/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted February 28, 2005 Scylth, If you mean saying that scripture doesn't mean what it says is sufficient then I would at least say that you accomplished that. But saying that scripture doesn't mean what it says is not something that I find very convincing. In Matthew 13:55-56 we are told that Jesus had 4 brothers and some sisters at least. You say that it doesn't really mean that. I frankly can only conclude that you say that to promote your agenda. Matthew 13:55 "Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? 56 "And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this man get all these things?" Galatians 1:18 Then three years later I went up to Jerusalem to become acquainted with Cephas, and stayed with him fifteen days. 19 But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord's brother. These verses say that Paul saw James, the Lord's brother. Paul considered James, the Lord's brother, an Apostle, as he considered himself an Apostle. But you say that when Paul says James, the Lord's brother, he doesn't really mean, James, the Lord's brother. Again, I conclude that your selective reading is more agenda driven than anything else. It is not my intent to debate this matter with you. I am merely explaining that and why we accept Mary's perpetual Virginity, a teaching held since the beginning of the Church in the 1st Century. I am not implying that the Scriptures in this instance mean something different than what they say, but that you are interpreting what they say to mean something other than what they mean. The word used in the Scripture, "adelphos" that you are taking to mean a male member of the immediate family does not mean that necessarily, but also has the meaning of a male member of the family, immediate or extended, as in a cousin. Do you hold that there were three Apostles named James? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anne Posted February 28, 2005 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 923 Content Per Day: 0.13 Reputation: 32 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/14/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/03/1974 Share Posted February 28, 2005 Kath, So we both recognise that Jesus died on the cross and shed his Blood in order that we might find salvation and we both agree that it is Jesus Christ that brings us to salvation, where we differ on is how we attain that salvation, am I right? Hence, now I really don't mean to seem stupid here, but I'm still left with the question in my mind, in plain words my friend, how is it you believe you will get to Heaven? oh yeah, what is the Beatific vision? Anne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katholish Posted February 28, 2005 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 86 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/10/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted February 28, 2005 Old Timer, Katholish, please correct me if I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katholish Posted February 28, 2005 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 86 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/10/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted February 28, 2005 In most cases people believe that Salvation comes when old enough to understand what Christ did for us. For catholics it comes when a baby is baptised Do you not see something wrong with this?? We do believe that the Faith of the parents can stand in for the child, whom they pledge to raise in the knowledge and belief in Christ that they may live up to their responsibilities as a Christian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katholish Posted February 28, 2005 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 86 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/10/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted February 28, 2005 (edited) oops sorry hit wrong button anyway Christ said IT IS FINISHED meaning the price had been paid for sin. David and Moses were punished in this life for the sin yes we sometimes pay for our sins as all humans do but Paul said when we confess our sins they are forgiven so if forgiven why must we still pay for them in the next life  that does not make sense what you are saying is that yes they are forgiven if not real big sins for those we must pay in the next life. But Jesus did not say that nore did the apostles nor did Paul.............there is no scriptue for that.......... Kath I am not trying to bug you on this but tradtion in this case does not hold water........................... and the scripture you quoted made clear that they were punished in this life............. Christ on Calvary merited an infinite amount of Grace for mankind, and perfectly sufficient to remove all eternal and temporal punishment due for sins in this life. At Baptism, that grace is applied to the soul, and we put on the "new man" and are washed clean of our offenses. If we commit mortal after that, we can be forgiven again, and our punishment removed again, etc. what is required in each case is that we take advantage of the graces offered and do what is necessary to apply them. Faith is necessary of course, but as I mentioned before, I am referring to being Baptised here, going to confession, and receiving indulgences if possible. (Indulgences remove temporal punishment due for sins already forgiven, by the application of the merits of Christ.) The Scripture that I quote before was merely to show that forgiveness and punishment are sometimes seperable. The examples show forgiveness, but then the need to sometimes punish sins even though they have already been forgiven. being raised a catholic made me afraid of any and everyhing did not want to sin was afraid of all things worldy afraid I would not messure up I have learned we all sin but that we are fogiven and that we do have an advocit with the Father and that is Jesus Christ and that I can go to Him and honestly repent and know that I am forgiven . Now instead of living in constant fear I am free form that fear and am now able to live as Christ intended do I sin yes am I a sinner Yes but I also know that Jesus paid the price for that sin and died for me so that I could have eternal life with Him when I honestly repent of those sins. I do not tell them to a priest any more who is a sinner just like me but I go to the Lord and confess repent and know that they are forgiven.............. A fear of sinning is a healthy response, though it is to be kept in mind that once does not fall into a state of sin accidently, but rather sin is a conscious disobedience to the Law of God. The Fear of God is a good thing and one of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. Fear is not in place of love, but just as we approach a fire because it can keep us warm, yet we approach with caution knowing that the power of fire is not to be taken lightly for we can be burned. Just so we approach God out of love, but must keep in mind His awesome power, and that we may only approach Him in as worthy a manner as we are capable of. 1 Corinthians 11: 29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord. I was baptised as an infant sure but at the age of 16 was also baptised in a christian church knowing that this time it was done by free will and with full knowledge of what I was doing. Baptism leaves an indelible mark on the soul, so repetition of the sacrament is prohibited in the Catholic Church. That is why we do not repeat it when a child reaches the age of reason. Edited February 28, 2005 by Katholish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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