Bible Difficulties Explained

[Ezra]

18 minutes ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

Not at all.  Focus on circle of the earth.  The Earth is not a circle.  If one from God's vantage point in the heavens is looking at the land of Israel, that might be considered a circle.

Well the earth is circular in its spherical shape, so there is no need to labor this point.  Had Scripture said "the straight line of the earth" it could have been regarded as an issue.  If you view a ball directly from the top and at a distance, all you see is a circle, not a sphere.

[SavedOnebyGrace]

40 minutes ago, Ezra said:

Well the earth is circular in its spherical shape, so there is no need to labor this point.  Had Scripture said "the straight line of the earth" it could have been regarded as an issue.  If you view a ball directly from the top and at a distance, all you see is a circle, not a sphere.

According to what little research I've done, the translators of the Septuagint knew the geometric difference between a circle and a sphere.  Unless you're suggesting we cannot rely on the Septuagint which I'm sure you're not.  It seems to me by using the term circle, it is like God has a laser like focus on one specific area on the globe.  But I'm speculating here.  These thoughts are truly just forming in my mind as I type this.  Whether it is me or the Holy Spirit, I cannot say.

[post]

2 hours ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

 

Not at all.  Focus on circle of the earth.  The Earth is not a circle.  If one from God's vantage point in the heavens is looking at the land of Israel, that might be considered a circle.

if the earth were a flat disc, then it would only have a circular profile when looking directly down from the exact center of it. the general zetetic view ((an idea that has its modern origins in freemasonry)) is that the north pole is the center. from every vantage point other than directly above the north pole, the profile of the disc earth would be an ellipse, not a circle. 

since the earth is instead spherical, it has a circular profile ((projection)) from every vantage point. in this sense, a spherical earth is more 'circular' than a disc earth. 

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the word "circle" is a strictly two-dimensional term. "sphere" and "disc" are three-dimensional terms. 'flat-earthers' aren't describing a 'flat' earth -- and they are not describing a 'circle' earth -- they are describing a disc. a 3-d form, not a 2-d shape. there is a perfectly good Hebrew word that would be used for a 'disc' -- the word you would use to describe a solid wheel, for example, or a circular stool ((technically a cylinder whose diameter is very large relative to its height)) - a three dimensional object, not a 2-d shape. this doesn't happen to be the word Isaiah used, though i have no doubt that he knew this word ((oben, Strong's # 70)). he has a rich vocabulary -- a learned man.

the word actually used instead in the Hebrew is related to a 'vault' or 'compass' -- inherent is the idea of 'circumscribing' an area. it is the understanding given to me that this passage is not describing the geometrical form of the earth. it is saying that God sees all of it - from horizon to horizon in every direction. wherever you stand, look around you, and as the area 'encompassed' by your view in every direction is 'circumscribed' by a circle, in the plane, or by a closed 'vault' or more properly an 'hemisphere' if including the sky above you. that is what this verse is saying: the Lord looks down ((for He is, figuratively, 'above' all things)) and sees everything from horizon to horizon. all things in every direction.
all this is saying is that nothing escapes the Lord's view. 
it is not saying the earth is a disc. 

that the earth has the "form" of a 'circle' is nonsense, geometrically -- a "form" is three dimensional. "circle" is a two-dimensional word.
the outline of the earth is indeed circular. the projection of the earth into 2-dimensions, from any angle is circular, within some limits, as it is slightly oblate at the equator from rotation. this is true because the earth is a spheroid. 

if the earth was a discoid, then it would only have a circular projection/outline when viewed from the center. from any other angle -- including over Jerusalem -- it would be elliptical, and from edge-on it would be rectangular. 

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so from the scripture itself and from knowledge of simple geometry, understanding the vocabulary being used, we can escape deceit and what we see with all of our senses and what knowledge the Lord has seen fit to allow mankind to take hold of, upholds the scripture, and destroys the masonic 'flat-earth' conspiracy. 

and this aside from the 10,000 observational science proofs that it is "flat wrong." 

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[SavedOnebyGrace]

11 minutes ago, post said:

if the earth were a flat disc, then it would only have a circular profile when looking directly down from the exact center of it. the general zetetic view ((an idea that has its modern origins in freemasonry)) is that the north pole is the center. from every vantage point other than directly above the north pole, the profile of the disc earth would be an ellipse, not a circle. 

since the earth is instead spherical, it has a circular profile ((projection)) from every vantage point. in this sense, a spherical earth is more circular than a disc earth. 

_________________________________________


the word "circle" is a strictly two-dimensional term. "sphere" and "disc" are three-dimensional terms. 'flat-earthers' aren't describing a 'flat' earth -- and they are not describing a 'circle' earth -- they are describing a disc. a 3-d form, not a 2-d shape. there is a perfectly good Hebrew word that would be used for a 'disc' -- the word you would use to describe a wheel, for example - a three dimensional object, not a 2-d shape. this doesn't happen to be the word Isaiah used, though i have no doubt that he knew this word ((oben, Strong's # 70)). he has a rich vocabulary -- a learned man.

the word actually used instead in the Hebrew is related to a 'vault' or 'compass' -- inherent is the idea of 'circumscribing' an area. it is the understanding given to me that this passage is not describing the geometrical form of the earth. it is saying that God sees all of it - from horizon to horizon in every direction. wherever you stand, look around you, and as the area 'encompassed' by your view in every direction is 'circumscribed' by a circle. that is what this verse is saying: the Lord looks down ((for He is, figuratively, 'above' all things)) and sees everything from horizon to horizon. 
all this is saying is that nothing escapes the Lord's view. 
it is not saying the earth is a disc. 

that the earth has the "form" of a 'circle' is nonsense, geometrically -- a "form" is three dimensional. "circle" is a two-dimensional word.
the outline of the earth is indeed circular. the projection of the earth into 2-dimensions, from any angle is circular, within some limits, as it is slightly oblate at the equator from rotation. this is true because the earth is a spheroid. 

if the earth was a discoid, then it would only have a circular projection/outline when viewed from the center. from any other angle -- including over Jerusalem -- it would be elliptical, and from edge-on it would be rectangular. 

__________________________________________

 

so from the scripture itself and from knowledge of simple geometry, understanding the vocabulary being used, we can escape deceit and what we see with all of our senses and what knowledge the Lord has seen fit to allow mankind to take hold of, upholds the scripture, and destroys the masonic 'flat-earth' conspiracy. 

and this aside from the 10,000 observational science proofs that it is "flat wrong." 

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but take care, and patience, and longsuffering, because he people who believe this, will not listen to you. it does not matter what arguments you present them; unless God opens their eyes, and ears, they will not see, and will not hear. He has His own purpose. 
 

Don't get me wrong, I in no way believe or support the flat Earth beliefs.  I'm trying to reconcile what God is saying through His prophet Isaiah with my scientific understanding of the universe around me.  It's as simple as that.  I am going to have to spend some more time rereading your post.  I may have additional quotes or comments after that.  Thank you for the time you spent on your post.

[OakWood]

The human eye can only see so far with the unaided eye, so a circular field of vision will always be there. And it is NOT the zetetic movement that has its origins in freemasonry, this a downright lie - it is actually the heliocentric theory that has its origins in freemasonry. Copernicus was a Jesuit freemason.

The Ancient Jews believed in a Flat Earth. Next you'll be telling us that the Jews were freemasons.

Observational science proves that the Earth is not a spinning globe for reasons that have been given countless times on this forum but persistently ignored.

[Ezra]

Please review the article from which this is quoted.

"The Bible indicates that the earth is round. Consider Isaiah 40:22 which mentions the “circle of the earth.” This description is certainly fitting—particularly when the earth is viewed from space; the earth always appears as a circle since it is round.

Another verse that indicates the spherical nature of our planet is Job 26:10. This verse teaches that God has inscribed a circle on the surface of the waters at the boundary of light and darkness.

This boundary between light and darkness (day and night) is called the “terminator” since the light stops or “terminates” there. Someone standing on the terminator would be experiencing either a sunrise or a sunset; they are going from day to night or from night to day. The terminator is always a circle, because the earth is round."

https://answersingenesis.org/answers/books/taking-back-astronomy/the-universe-confirms-the-bible/

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[post]

7 hours ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

Don't get me wrong, I in no way believe or support the flat Earth beliefs.  I'm trying to reconcile what God is saying through His prophet Isaiah with my scientific understanding of the universe around me.  It's as simple as that.  I am going to have to spend some more time rereading your post.  I may have additional quotes or comments after that.  Thank you for the time you spent on your post.

you're welcome. 

over more than 20 years i've had long, extended and involved conversations with dozens of people who are 100% bought into ((or sold into?)) this idea. i've given it lots of thought and careful inquiry. years of it. and every one of the serious adherents of it seem to me to have the same spirit; not the one in you - which seems to be genuine interest and curiosity. 

i've concluded through all of this that every single 'proof' they give is 100% bogus, given with deceitfully chosen narrow scopes of information, and every 'anomaly' they present is readily and fully explained by known atmospheric physics, optics, and other natural laws of God's universe, while there are a great multitude of physical impossibilities that the zetetic model cannot reconcile at all. 
further, my conclusion is that the scripture they sometimes cite is not in any way describing the geometry of the planet - in some cases it's a total misuse of vocabulary, as here in Isaiah, or obviously figurative language such as the 'pillars of the earth' or the 'four corners' - the scriptures simply aren't saying what zetetic adherents are trying to tell us they are saying. they are speaking with poetic language about the majesty of God, and are written for the perspective of a man standing on the face of the planet: they are not a cosmological textbook or handbook of physics, though they are entirely consistent with the truth of the natural world when understood for what they are, and the purpose of the writing -- and that purpose is not to teach physics, astronomy, math, biology or geology. 

and thanks for sticking to the scripture instead of jumping down the rabbit hole. 
the 'flat people' wouldn't want to dwell on this point for too long, i think -- but i think we are all better served to stick with the scripture, and from there move towards the things above, instead of focusing all our energies on the things below. 
 

[post]

7 hours ago, OakWood said:

The Ancient Jews believed in a Flat Earth.

that's not entirely clear to me whether they did or not. 

but it wouldn't matter -- it is clear that the ancient Jews believed in Ba'al and Ashoreh and Molek, and the Lord gave them over to worshiping the starry host, because of their spiritual adulteries. 

But God turned away from them and gave them over to the worship of the sun, moon and stars.
(Acts 7:42)

so of course they believed all kinds of lies from the pit of hell about the universe writ large. they were a deceived people, blinded and made deaf by Him, in judgement. they believed these things with their whole heart and would not be swayed, not even by prophets, and not by what they could plainly see with their own eyes: that things they believed were false.  

this argument carries no weight with me at all. 

[SavedOnebyGrace]

14 hours ago, post said:

if the earth were a flat disc, then it would only have a circular profile when looking directly down from the exact center of it. the general zetetic view ((an idea that has its modern origins in freemasonry)) is that the north pole is the center. from every vantage point other than directly above the north pole, the profile of the disc earth would be an ellipse, not a circle. 

since the earth is instead spherical, it has a circular profile ((projection)) from every vantage point. in this sense, a spherical earth is more 'circular' than a disc earth. 

_________________________________________


the word "circle" is a strictly two-dimensional term. "sphere" and "disc" are three-dimensional terms. 'flat-earthers' aren't describing a 'flat' earth -- and they are not describing a 'circle' earth -- they are describing a disc. a 3-d form, not a 2-d shape. there is a perfectly good Hebrew word that would be used for a 'disc' -- the word you would use to describe a solid wheel, for example, or a circular stool ((technically a cylinder whose diameter is very large relative to its height)) - a three dimensional object, not a 2-d shape. this doesn't happen to be the word Isaiah used, though i have no doubt that he knew this word ((oben, Strong's # 70)). he has a rich vocabulary -- a learned man.

the word actually used instead in the Hebrew is related to a 'vault' or 'compass' -- inherent is the idea of 'circumscribing' an area. it is the understanding given to me that this passage is not describing the geometrical form of the earth. it is saying that God sees all of it - from horizon to horizon in every direction. wherever you stand, look around you, and as the area 'encompassed' by your view in every direction is 'circumscribed' by a circle, in the plane, or by a closed 'vault' or more properly an 'hemisphere' if including the sky above you. that is what this verse is saying: the Lord looks down ((for He is, figuratively, 'above' all things)) and sees everything from horizon to horizon. all things in every direction.
all this is saying is that nothing escapes the Lord's view. 
it is not saying the earth is a disc. 

that the earth has the "form" of a 'circle' is nonsense, geometrically -- a "form" is three dimensional. "circle" is a two-dimensional word.
the outline of the earth is indeed circular. the projection of the earth into 2-dimensions, from any angle is circular, within some limits, as it is slightly oblate at the equator from rotation. this is true because the earth is a spheroid. 

if the earth was a discoid, then it would only have a circular projection/outline when viewed from the center. from any other angle -- including over Jerusalem -- it would be elliptical, and from edge-on it would be rectangular. 

__________________________________________

 

so from the scripture itself and from knowledge of simple geometry, understanding the vocabulary being used, we can escape deceit and what we see with all of our senses and what knowledge the Lord has seen fit to allow mankind to take hold of, upholds the scripture, and destroys the masonic 'flat-earth' conspiracy. 

and this aside from the 10,000 observational science proofs that it is "flat wrong." 

__________________________________________

Instead of focusing on the word "circle", another acceptable translation is compass. As a design engineer, I can tell that one of the earliest tools for engineers and architects is the compass.  There are many uses for a compass besides making circles.  So I think there's more to this.  There may be a design aspect referencing tools from the period this passage was written.  Could circle and compass just mean God's precise design?