The Jewishness of the Olivet Discourse

[Retrobyter]

43 minutes ago, Flsnookman said:

Retrobyter I have been skimming through this thread because it's late and I am old and tired but I must ask a question. When you were referring to Jesus name you gave a hebrew version and a greek version but wouldn't the name that Jesus family and friends used be in aramaic? I may be way off base here but i thought the main language spoken by those in nazereth was aramiac. Again if I am mistaken please enlighten me. Not trying to argue or derail this thread just curious. Thank you.

Shalom, Flsnookman.

Yes, you're right, but see, Aramaic is a VERY close cousin to Hebrew. "Aramaic" comes from "Aram" which was the ancient name of the location now known as Syria. If you will recall from Genesis, Avraham's family settled there after their trek from Uwr of the Chaldeans. 

At the top of the Fertile Crescent, it was on the way to Babylon and Assyria, and thus, it was a language the two countries, Israel and Assyria/Babylonia both could understand. Thus, when the children of Israel and later Y'hudah went into captivity, it was a go-between language for the captors to communicate with their captives. Living there for some time, and later living in Persia, the captives adopted the language as their own. When the remnant returned to the Land, they brought the Aramaic language with them.

Furthermore, during the occupation of the Greeks under the Seleucid Empire, Syria being prominant in that empire, that language was still important as a translation language between Hebrew and Greek. Thus, the Aramaic language was commonly used, especially in the northern territories of Israel such as the Galiyl (Galilee), which was physically close to Syria.

There were some differences between the languages (as can be noted in Strong's dictionary of the Hebrew and Chaldean [Aramaic] Languages), but mostly the difference was in the shape of their letters, not so much in the names themselves or their origins. I've been studying Aramaic recently, and I'm discovering that it generally has the same spelling rules as does Hebrew, it contains the same sentence structure as that of Hebrew, and it is an easy transition between the two languages because they are, after all, both Middle Eastern languages. They are much closer than, say, Hebrew is to Arabic.

So, if you'd like, simply look at OT:3443 (Aramaic) and compare it to OT:3442 (Hebrew). In Strong's dictionary, you will find no significant difference.

Edited August 19, 2016 by Retrobyter
To give the right name for Strong's dictionary

[Sister]

On 10/08/2016 at 11:32 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Marcus.

Somehow, you've got the notion that the Resurrection is only for those who are "born again." Nothing could be further from the truth! Now, before you claim otherwise as though you've been personally attacked, I simply ask this: Have you ever put the fact that the Millennium is AFTER the Resurrection together with the fact that the OT saints were looking forward to the Resurrection, as well?

Hello again Retrobyter

The resurrection involves only those who have served the Lamb in spirit and in truth.  The OT saints never followed the Lamb, they followed the Law.  The Law does not get one into the resurrection through works, ....and how could they serve the Lamb when he had not yet come?  They don't know him yet.  God has all this accounted for and already worked out so that everything is fair and goes according to his Word.

Therefore there will be two resurrections, one at the Coming, and one after the thousand years.  The OT saints of Israel will enter into the millennium in THE FLESH, ...they will multiply and die of a ripe old age, they are being taught Christ, and not one of them will fall.  They are in training so to speak for the 2nd resurrection, just like we are in training now on how to enter the first resurrection.  They still get a chance, and salvation is promised at the end of it when they receive their change.

[Sister]

Quote

`Iyov (Job) said,

Job 19:23-27
23 Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book!
24 That they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock for ever!
25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.
KJV

Retrobyter

Read it again carefully.  Job will see God in his "flesh", not in the spirit as of he has been "changed".  There is a big difference.

 

Quote

David said,

Psalm 16:8-11
8 I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved.
9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.
10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.
KJV

 

You do realise that this is Jesus speaking?  It's slipped in there, so subtle and the holy spirit inside David was "prophesying".

Jesus was raised on the 3rd day before his body started to decay.  Even his flesh did not see corruption at his death.  

This scripture does not prove that OT saints will be in the resurrection. 

[Sister]

Quote

Hoshea said,

Hosea 6:1-3
1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.
KJV

Retrobyter

He will heal the remnants of Israel, because Christ will lead them in truth.  He will show them things they never knew.

If Christ will revive them after 2 days, then on the 3rd day they are raised it has to be after something?

What would that something be?

I would say, the remnants will be "raised" in "the flesh", after the Resurrection, ....after Babylon is destroyed,....after Satan is locked up (all happens on the same day)....then he will bring them in...after this.  The Kingdom must be established first on the earth, then the remnants will gathered to be brought in.  They will be gathered from all the places where they have been scattered, and the Lord will send for them who have survived to be brought in, but only those chosen remnants.

Isaiah 11:11   And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

  Isaiah 11:12   And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

 

 Isaiah 49:22   Thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up my standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders.

The survivors of the gentiles are bringing the remnants into Holy Jerusalem!

 

 Isaiah 49:12   Behold, these shall come from far: and, lo, these from the north and from the west; and these from the land of Sinim.

  Isaiah 49:13   Sing, O heavens; and be joyful, O earth; and break forth into singing, O mountains: for the LORD hath comforted his people, and will have mercy upon his afflicted.
 

No more affliction, but mercy and truth will be given now - inside holy Jerusalem, the City of Peace established now on earth.  The second gathering.

[Sister]

Quote

 

Some think Yechezk'el's prophecy was only symbolic; I don't. I believe that it is a 100% literal prophecy!

Ezekiel 37:1-14
1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

 

Retrobyter

I agree this is literal.

This shows that the remnants of Israel will be "raised".  Doesn't mean raised to spirit, but raised back into "flesh" as these scriptures show so clearly.  These would include OT saints. 

Isaiah 49:6   And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

They will be "a light" to the surviving gentiles of Armageddon and all new generations of gentiles who will be born during the millennium.  The preaching will go back to Israel.

 

So if the remnants will be in the resurrection of the saints at the coming, then who is going to lead the gentiles?

  Isaiah 1:26   And I will restore thy judges as at the first, and thy counsellors as at the beginning: afterward thou shalt be called, The city of righteousness, the faithful city.

Men of God teaching Men of flesh.

[Retrobyter]

9 hours ago, Sister said:

Hello again Retrobyter

The resurrection involves only those who have served the Lamb in spirit and in truth.  The OT saints never followed the Lamb, they followed the Law.  The Law does not get one into the resurrection through works, ....and how could they serve the Lamb when he had not yet come?  They don't know him yet.  God has all this accounted for and already worked out so that everything is fair and goes according to his Word.

Therefore there will be two resurrections, one at the Coming, and one after the thousand years.  The OT saints of Israel will enter into the millennium in THE FLESH, ...they will multiply and die of a ripe old age, they are being taught Christ, and not one of them will fall.  They are in training so to speak for the 2nd resurrection, just like we are in training now on how to enter the first resurrection.  They still get a chance, and salvation is promised at the end of it when they receive their change.

Shalom, Sister.

To start, you've made a few assumptions that are just not true. First, you said that the OT saints never followed the Lamb. Actually, while they may not have known who the Lamb would be, they knew about the Messiah from the prophecies, and they knew that a sacrifice had to be made. Why do you think that they recognized the "Mashiyach ben Yosef" ("Messiah, the son of Joseph") as well as the "Mashiyach ben David" ("Messiah, the son of David")? And, these two names, representing the bodies of prophecy that related to them, were known BEFORE the Messiah Yeshua` came onto the scene! (That's why Yochanan the Immerser [John the Baptist] asked, "Are you the one we were to expect, or should we be looking for another?")

Second, you asked, "... and how could they serve the Lamb when he had not yet come?" Well, the answer to this is simple: Before the Word was made flesh, they served ADONAI GOD! (That's the One to whom the English term "the LORD" refers.) If they attempted strictly to follow the Law, they would soon learn how easily they needed God's forgiveness and His intervention on their behalf. The psalmist said it well:

Psalm 130
1 Out of the depths have I cried unto thee, O LORD.
2 LORD, hear my voice: let thine ears be attentive to the voice of my supplications.
3 If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O LORD, who shall stand?
4 But there is forgiveness with thee, that thou mayest be feared.
5 I wait for the LORD, my soul doth wait, and in his word (the Word!) do I hope.
6 My soul waiteth for the LORD more than they that watch for the morning: I say, more than they that watch for the morning.
7 Let Israel hope in the LORD: for with the LORD there is mercy, and with him is plenteous redemption.
8 And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities.
KJV

You've got to understand that this was (and still is) a SONG! And, these lyrics were on the lips of ALL who sang it!

Third, the concept of "fairness" is not a good term to use with the plan of the LORD. "Fairness" involves equity across the board. God puts little stock in "fairness." His focus is on "JUSTICE." "Justice" involves giving each individual what he or she appropriately DESERVES based on his or her choices in life. The LORD is NOT a God who is fair; He is a God who is JUST! Even in our nation's Constitution, we recognize the difference: While "we hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness," we all do not achieve or fail equally past that point! Obviously, even the economic station to which one is born is not equal! Thus, the pen of Thomas Jefferson also wrote, "That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed ... ."

Yeshua` gave us two parables that illustrate the difference: The parable of the workers in the field, and the parable of the talents.

Matthew 20:1-16
1 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.
2 And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
3 And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,
4 And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.
5 Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.
6 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?
7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.
8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.
9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.
10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.
11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,
12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.
13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?
14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.
15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?
16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.
KJV

This parable illustrates FAIRNESS, and that EQUITY was not well received!

Matthew 25:14-30
14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
KJV

This parable illustrates JUSTICE!

What you need to understand is that God is NO respecter of persons! Furthermore, just as there are two kinds of people in this world today, (1) those who believe that they can earn their way into God's good favor and (2) those who realize that they could NEVER earn their way into God's good favor and humbly fall upon His mercy and intervention instead, that it is also true that these two kinds of people exist THROUGHOUT TIME! Even when instructed to keep the Law, every child of Israel could figure out that they could not HOPE to keep all the commandments within the Law!

During Yeshua`s lifetime on earth, the group of people who called themselves "Separatists," "P'rushiym" in Hebrew, translated as "Pharisees," believed that they COULD earn their way into God's good favor. Yeshua` tried many times to get through to them, but He emphasized to His listeners, commoners supposedly "below" the station of the "P'rushiym," 

Matthew 5:20
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
KJV

Thus, it is your THEOLOGICAL STANCE (and your OPINION), that "The resurrection involves only those who have served the Lamb in spirit and in truth."

The truth is that in EVERY generation, a person is accepted by God (1) through grace, (2) through faith, and (3) by blood. Paul was not vilifying the Law; he was denouncing the belief that one could keep the Law to earn God's favor!

There SHALL be two GENERAL resurrections, but you should also remember what Yeshua` told Martha:

John 11:21-27
21 Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.
22 But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee.
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ (the Messiah), the Son of God, which should come into the world.
KJV

Yeshua` HIMSELF is the Resurrection! Consider this: We have three particular accounts of Yeshua` raising people back to life (Jairus' daughter, the son of the widow, and Lazarus or Elezar), but we are also told,

Matthew 11:4-5
4 Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:
5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.
KJV

And, it was not just Yeshua` doing the miracles:

Matthew 10:5-8
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
KJV

If Yeshua` and His disciples raised many to life during His first advent, don't you think He (and we) shall do the same during His second advent THROUGHOUT the Millennium when He is first reigning over Israel and then later over the whole world? Your philosophy of the Millennium and the resurrection of the "OT saints" is limited and incomplete.

Edited August 19, 2016 by Retrobyter
correcting myself about Lazarus; what was I thinking?!

[Sister]

13 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Sister.

To start, you've made a few assumptions that are just not true. First, you said that the OT saints never followed the Lamb. Actually, while they may not have known who the Lamb would be, they knew about the Messiah from the prophecies, and they knew that a sacrifice had to be made. Why do you think that they recognized the "Mashiyach ben Yosef" ("Messiah, the son of Joseph") as well as the "Mashiyach ben David" ("Messiah, the son of David")? And, these two names, representing the bodies of prophecy that related to them, were known BEFORE the Messiah Yeshua` came onto the scene! (That's why Yochanan the Immerser [John the Baptist] asked, "Are you the one we were to expect, or should we be looking for another?")

Second, you asked, "... and how could they serve the Lamb when he had not yet come?" Well, the answer to this is simple: Before the Word was made flesh, they served ADONAI GOD! (That's the One to whom the English term "the LORD" refers.) If they attempted strictly to follow the Law, they would soon learn how easily they needed God's forgiveness and His intervention on their behalf. The psalmist said it well:

 

Greetings Retrobyter

Thank you for answering me.

The hidden jewels of Wisdom have to be searched for, but there are a few basic things straight forward that cannot be denied concerning Christ and is clear to all.

The Jews were expecting their Messiah, but when he came, the MAJORITY of those living at that time (Jews), did not recognise that he was sent from God, for Christ came and preached to them a NEW DOCTRINE to their ears, ....even John the Baptist, specially chosen to bear witness to that light, was not "that light", even he claimed he did not know Christ.

 John 1:30   This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.

  John 1:31   And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
 

John 1:33   And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

All John knew was that he, Jesus was the Messiah prophesied about had come, but "he knew him not".

Ok, John never met Jesus prior, but neither have we.  Yet we do not declare that "we do not know him", for we identify Christ through what he speaks, it's already given now, ..... for after John bared witness to Israel that the light had come, the light was given.....not before.  John knew "of Christ", same as Israel, but they didn't know him from his doctrine for it was not yet revealed.

So how can you say the OT saints, knew Christ?  It's not the same Retro....many in the world believe Christ came, yet they don't know him.  To know Christ is to know truth, the full truth....be given the "light" and to walk in that path that he set out for us, not through the old way, but the new way, which they back then did not know or even hear.

Christ is that door to God, and Christ is truth.  We cannot come to God and bypass the truth, but have to go through the truth, and that door is opened now, not then, so when I said that God is fair in his plan, I mean't that he has not forgotten about Israel.  God is all about the END RESULT.  If God blinded Israel so that the gentiles could come in and receive the fruits first, then who are we to argue?  He clearly says that he has not forgotten about Israel, and after they have been taught a strong lesson, (we are learning from that also), mercy will be given and they will be given a new heart, that of Christ, and will shine during the millennium to bring the Lord glory.  In the end they are saved and God is fair and that is the purpose of two resurrections, they don't miss out in the end.

 

 

[Sister]

Quote

Second, you asked, "... and how could they serve the Lamb when he had not yet come?" Well, the answer to this is simple: Before the Word was made flesh, they served ADONAI GOD! (That's the One to whom the English term "the LORD" refers.) If they attempted strictly to follow the Law, they would soon learn how easily they needed God's forgiveness and His intervention on their behalf. The psalmist said it well:

Retrobyter

I don't mean to post numerous times, but have to break it up as your answer to is so long!

Yes, Israel served God, so out of all those tribes and people of Israel, we have the ones who obeyed God's voice through the commandments, and the ones who did not.  Even the house of Israel is sifted according to what was required of them back then.  Don't make them all the same.  There are good fruits, and rotten ones.  All sacrificed, but all didn't get to find out who's sacrifices were accepted.  There's a day for this set aside, and that day will declare who those remnants are to be brought into the kingdom on EARTH, to finally meet their savior, and learn his teachings also...they are hand picked from all generations, and chosen to restore Israel to it's former glory, setting them apart from the others who destroyed their name by committing abominations.  God does not pick the WICKED out of Israel to get this privilege, but only those whose sacrifices were ACCEPTED, will be brought back in to lead Israel, and multiply  in the kingdom, to learn this time what is required in order to have TRUE WORSHIP, and that it consists of sacrifices of the heart now.

If the OT saints of Israel are of the resurrection, then how can they multiply?  Please ask yourself this.  Does spirit multiply and have babies?

 

[Retrobyter]

9 hours ago, Sister said:

Greetings Retrobyter

Thank you for answering me.

The hidden jewels of Wisdom have to be searched for, but there are a few basic things straight forward that cannot be denied concerning Christ and is clear to all.

The Jews were expecting their Messiah, but when he came, the MAJORITY of those living at that time (Jews), did not recognise that he was sent from God, for Christ came and preached to them a NEW DOCTRINE to their ears, ....even John the Baptist, specially chosen to bear witness to that light, was not "that light", even he claimed he did not know Christ.

 John 1:30   This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.

  John 1:31   And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
 

John 1:33   And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

All John knew was that he, Jesus was the Messiah prophesied about had come, but "he knew him not".

Ok, John never met Jesus prior, but neither have we.  Yet we do not declare that "we do not know him", for we identify Christ through what he speaks, it's already given now, ..... for after John bore witness to Israel that the light had come, the light was given.....not before.  John knew "of Christ", same as Israel, but they didn't know him from his doctrine for it was not yet revealed.

So how can you say the OT saints, knew Christ?  It's not the same Retro....many in the world believe Christ came, yet they don't know him.  To know Christ is to know truth, the full truth....be given the "light" and to walk in that path that he set out for us, not through the old way, but the new way, which they back then did not know or even hear.

Christ is that door to God, and Christ is truth.  We cannot come to God and bypass the truth, but have to go through the truth, and that door is opened now, not then, so when I said that God is fair in his plan, I mean't that he has not forgotten about Israel.  God is all about the END RESULT.  If God blinded Israel so that the gentiles could come in and receive the fruits first, then who are we to argue?  He clearly says that he has not forgotten about Israel, and after they have been taught a strong lesson, (we are learning from that also), mercy will be given and they will be given a new heart, that of Christ, and will shine during the millennium to bring the Lord glory.  In the end they are saved and God is fair and that is the purpose of two resurrections, they don't miss out in the end.

Shabbat shalom, Sister.

I will answer you, because you are my sister and because you seem to be asking questions honestly. First, let's talk about Yochanan the Immerser (John the Baptist): When Yochanan said he didn't know Him, that would be a funny thing to say about your cousin, wouldn't it? And, we know that Miryam (Mary) visited Elisheva (Elizabeth) while they were both pregnant. Now, unless they NEVER had family reunions all the while the kids were growing up, doesn't that seem strange to you? Furthermore, EVERY YEAR they were required by Law at least once a year to go up to Yerushalayim (Jerusalem) for one of the three major feasts. They would often travel in groups, typically family groups, and they never met along the way? Remember the context of John 1. It wasn't about the "Christ"; it was about the "Word!" He didn't yet know Him AS the "Word made flesh," the One who "baptizeth with the Ruach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit)."

Yochanan knew that he himself was the forerunner for the Messiah, and he knew that THIS was the One for whom he must herald. You've got to look at the WHOLE incident in its context. It's a fascinating study:

John 1:19-42
19 And this is the record of John,
when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?
20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ (the Messiah).
21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias (Eliyahu or Elijah)?
And he saith, I am not.
Art thou that prophet? (The prophet foretold by Mosheh or Moses in Deut. 18:15-19.)
And he answered, No.
22 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself?
23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias (Isaiah). (This is a quotation from Isa. 40:3.)
24 And they which were sent were of the Pharisees (P'rushiym who believed in ritual purification of baptism in a mikvah).
25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ (Messiah), nor Elias (Eliyahu), neither that prophet?
26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;
27 He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose.
28 These things were done in Bethabara (Beit-ha`Aravah or House of the Desert or House on the way to the Aravah) beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing.

29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

35 Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples;
36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!
37 And the two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus.
38 Then Jesus turned, and saw them following, and saith unto them, What seek ye? They said unto him, Rabbi, (which is to say, being interpreted, Master,) where dwellest thou?
39 He saith unto them, Come and see. They came and saw where he dwelt, and abode with him that day: for it was about the tenth hour.
40 One of the two which heard John speak, and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother.
41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.
42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas (Kefa), which is by interpretation, A stone. (Literally, a "HOLLOW stone," a "GEODE!")

43 The day following Jesus would go forth into Galilee, and findeth Philip, and saith unto him, Follow me.
44 Now Philip was of Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter.
45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
46 And Nathanael said unto him, Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth?
Philip saith unto him, Come and see.
47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!
48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me?
Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.
49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.
50 Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.
51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.
KJV

Remember: We are talking about "uncharted territory" here. Imagine playing with your childhood friend and cousin, Ronnie, and the shock it would be to discover, years later, that this would turn out to be the 40th PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, RONALD W. REAGAN?! 

I believe THAT'S the kind of shock it would be to discover that your younger cousin, "Yeshua`," would turn out to be the MESSIAH, the KING OF ISRAEL, the SON OF GOD! A lot happened in these four days! As a prophet of God, the Ruach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit of God) had to reveal to Yochanan who exactly was the Messiah. First, He did it by putting the words in Yochanan's mouth, "Hineeh! HaKeves Elohiym!") "Behold! God's Lamb!" Then, He showed him by revealing the Ruach haQodesh alighting like a dove upon Yeshua`!

This is all imagination, of course, but I can imagine Yochanan's first thought being, "No. Not him. Not that little, obnoxious gnat who used to bug me all the time!" Then, he'd remember all the fun they used to have being kids, and the weird things He would say to him, and then the pride hit! "Yeah! Who else COULD it have been? Of COURSE, it would be Him!"

See, there's "knowing him," and then there's "KNOWING Him!" (Note the capitalized "Him.")

So, how can I say that the Old Testament saints "knew Christ?" They didn't, but they knew OF a "Christ," a Messiah, to come, revealed in prophecy! And, they knew that the Messiah would be the One to fulfill...

Jeremiah 23:5-8
5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
7 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, "The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt";
8 But, "The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land."
KJV

They knew that He would fulfill...

Isaiah 11:1-12
1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD  and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
KJV

They knew that He would fulfill...

Jeremiah 33:15-22
15 In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.
16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness.
17 For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want (lack) a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel;
18 Neither shall the priests the Levites want (lack) a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually.
19 And the word of the LORD came unto Jeremiah, saying,
20 Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season;
21 Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers.
22 As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me.
KJV

And, this is just a FEW of the many verses that spoke of a Messiah, the son of David, to come!

What you are not understanding is WHEN does this begin? Not at the END of the Millennium, but at its BEGINNING!

Revelation 19:11-20:6
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ (the Messiah) a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ (the Messiah), and shall reign with him a thousand years.
KJV

You absolutely MUST connect "Christ" to "the Messiah!" THEY ARE THE SAME! The only difference is the language from which the two words are taken: "Christ" comes from the Greek word "Christos," and "Messiah" comes from the Hebrew word "Mashiyach," but THEY MEAN THE SAME THING, THE "ANOINTED ONE," ANOINTED TO BE THE KING OF ISRAEL and then "KING OF KINGS" or WORLD EMPEROR!

That's all I have time for now.

[Sister]

On 20/08/2016 at 11:12 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, Sister.

I will answer you, because you are my sister and because you seem to be asking questions honestly. First, let's talk about Yochanan the Immerser (John the Baptist): When Yochanan said he didn't know Him, that would be a funny thing to say about your cousin, wouldn't it? And, we know that Miryam (Mary) visited Elisheva (Elizabeth) while they were both pregnant. Now, unless they NEVER had family reunions all the while the kids were growing up, doesn't that seem strange to you? Furthermore, EVERY YEAR they were required by Law at least once a year to go up to Yerushalayim (Jerusalem) for one of the three major feasts. They would often travel in groups, typically family groups, and they never met along the way? Remember the context of John 1. It wasn't about the "Christ"; it was about the "Word!" He didn't yet know Him AS the "Word made flesh," the One who "baptizeth with the Ruach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit)."

Yochanan knew that he himself was the forerunner for the Messiah, and he knew that THIS was the One for whom he must herald. You've got to look at the WHOLE incident in its context. It's a fascinating study:

John 1:19-42
19 And this is the record of John,
when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?
20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ (the Messiah).
21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias (Eliyahu or Elijah)?
And he saith, I am not.
Art thou that prophet? (The prophet foretold by Mosheh or Moses in Deut. 18:15-19.)
And he answered, No.
22 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself?
23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias (Isaiah). (This is a quotation from Isa. 40:3.)
24 And they which were sent were of the Pharisees (P'rushiym who believed in ritual purification of baptism in a mikvah).
25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ (Messiah), nor Elias (Eliyahu), neither that prophet?
26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;
27 He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose.
28 These things were done in Bethabara (Beit-ha`Aravah or House of the Desert or House on the way to the Aravah) beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing.

29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

35 Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples;
36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!
37 And the two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus.
38 Then Jesus turned, and saw them following, and saith unto them, What seek ye? They said unto him, Rabbi, (which is to say, being interpreted, Master,) where dwellest thou?
39 He saith unto them, Come and see. They came and saw where he dwelt, and abode with him that day: for it was about the tenth hour.
40 One of the two which heard John speak, and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother.
41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.
42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas (Kefa), which is by interpretation, A stone. (Literally, a "HOLLOW stone," a "GEODE!")

43 The day following Jesus would go forth into Galilee, and findeth Philip, and saith unto him, Follow me.
44 Now Philip was of Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter.
45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
46 And Nathanael said unto him, Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth?
Philip saith unto him, Come and see.
47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!
48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me?
Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.
49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.
50 Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.
51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.
KJV

Remember: We are talking about "uncharted territory" here. Imagine playing with your childhood friend and cousin, Ronnie, and the shock it would be to discover, years later, that this would turn out to be the 40th PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, RONALD W. REAGAN?! 

I believe THAT'S the kind of shock it would be to discover that your younger cousin, "Yeshua`," would turn out to be the MESSIAH, the KING OF ISRAEL, the SON OF GOD! A lot happened in these four days! As a prophet of God, the Ruach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit of God) had to reveal to Yochanan who exactly was the Messiah. First, He did it by putting the words in Yochanan's mouth, "Hineeh! HaKeves Elohiym!") "Behold! God's Lamb!" Then, He showed him by revealing the Ruach haQodesh alighting like a dove upon Yeshua`!

This is all imagination, of course, but I can imagine Yochanan's first thought being, "No. Not him. Not that little, obnoxious gnat who used to bug me all the time!" Then, he'd remember all the fun they used to have being kids, and the weird things He would say to him, and then the pride hit! "Yeah! Who else COULD it have been? Of COURSE, it would be Him!"

See, there's "knowing him," and then there's "KNOWING Him!" (Note the capitalized "Him.")

So, how can I say that the Old Testament saints "knew Christ?" They didn't, but they knew OF a "Christ," a Messiah, to come, revealed in prophecy! And, they knew that the Messiah would be the One to fulfill...

Jeremiah 23:5-8
5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
7 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, "The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt";
8 But, "The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land."
KJV

They knew that He would fulfill...

Isaiah 11:1-12
1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD  and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
KJV

They knew that He would fulfill...

Jeremiah 33:15-22
15 In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.
16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness.
17 For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want (lack) a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel;
18 Neither shall the priests the Levites want (lack) a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually.
19 And the word of the LORD came unto Jeremiah, saying,
20 Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season;
21 Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers.
22 As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me.
KJV

And, this is just a FEW of the many verses that spoke of a Messiah, the son of David, to come!

What you are not understanding is WHEN does this begin? Not at the END of the Millennium, but at its BEGINNING!

Revelation 19:11-20:6
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ (the Messiah) a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ (the Messiah), and shall reign with him a thousand years.
KJV

You absolutely MUST connect "Christ" to "the Messiah!" THEY ARE THE SAME! The only difference is the language from which the two words are taken: "Christ" comes from the Greek word "Christos," and "Messiah" comes from the Hebrew word "Mashiyach," but THEY MEAN THE SAME THING, THE "ANOINTED ONE," ANOINTED TO BE THE KING OF ISRAEL and then "KING OF KINGS" or WORLD EMPEROR!

That's all I have time for now.

Thank you Retrobyter