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WilliamL last won the day on March 1 2016

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About WilliamL

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  • Birthday 09/01/1950

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    Sangre de Cristo Mts. CO
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  1. Let's get to basics: at the return of Christ, there will be those of Israel who believe in Him and "were ready" (Matt. 25:10) to go with Him, and there will be those of Israel who did not believe in Him until He convinced them by His appearance. The latter will not go up in the Rapture, but will become believing saints on earth during the Wrath. These, or the elect of these, are the 144,000. They are or include the Israelites of Zech. 12:10 who "will look unto Me whom they pierced, and mourn over Him..." because they now realize their (2000-year) blindness. They are the earthly saints of the "time of Jacob's trouble," who have to deal with the Little Horn on earth for 3-1/2 times. But the saints of the Church will be in heaven by then. Pre-wrath, but post-trib. Saints above and saints below. God is never without a witness upon earth.
  2. Yes, Matthew 24:21 = Daniel 12:1. I've always said that. Speaking specifically of the time of trouble such as never was. NOT about the judgment of Daniel's people, however. Because the trib will be upon the whole world, and has nothing to do with the specific 3.5 years judgment of Daniel's people. Daniel 7:25 and Rev. 13 has to do with "the power of the holy people [being] completely shattered" (Dan. 12:7; 7:21, 25). Those are Daniel's people, not Christ's people: the OT prophets never prophesied about Christ's Church, which was a "mystery" concealed from them until the coming of Christ. The reason why the Great Trib will be so fearful is that it will be the total collapse of civilization as we know it, resulting in maga-death from starvation, internecine conflict, and plague. But the Beast kingdom will reestablish order of a sort in the world after the trib, so that people can buy and sell again, and life will go on on a debased level.
  3. I believe that is most likely during the millennial age. With respect to the new earth after the millennium, hard to say, we know too little about it.
  4. Agreed, with the minor exception that I believe the resurrected saints ascended on Nisan 21, not Nisan 18. The latter date, that of the Firstfruits wave offering, was of Jesus alone. Whereas the saints did not come out of their graves until after the resurrection of Jesus, who ascended first and alone to atone for sins before the heavenly throne. Nisan 21 was the last day of the feast of unleavened bread, when formerly the Israelites escaped Egypt and the Egyptians once and for all, when they passed through the waters of the Red Sea. I believe this was a type of the resurrected saints passing out of this world into the heavenly one.
  5. "No part in it"? Hardly. The Church is there through chapter 7, and in chapter 12, and in chapters 19-22. There is no "earthly temple" in chapter 11 or any other chapter. Only the heavenly naos/sanctuary is mentioned in Revelation. It is you that would have to prove otherwise. Read my blog post on Rev. 11, found here: https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1117-the-temple-sanctuary-and-court-of-revelation-11/ Regarding saints, there are saints of the Church, and there are saints of Israel. One has to distinguish between them. The Church is judged first during the Seals (as in, you are or you ain't when the Lord comes), Israel is judged second during the trumpets, the nations are judged last during the bowls.
  6. Nonsense. There is the ecclesia of Israel, and there is the ecclesia of the Church. Two distinct assemblies, the former earthly, the latter heavenly. Heb. 12:23 Two distinct covenants, one spiritual/pneumatikos, the other "natural"/psuchikos. That is why Christ brought the New Covenant, the "second" covenant. Heb. 8:6-7; Luke 22:20
  7. No passage of the Bible equates the trib to the 3.5 years or the 7 years. None. Pure presumption. NO passage of the NT speaks of a seven year period at all. They are the originators of "classic pre-wrath," but not the originators of pre-wrath's fundamentals. They were correct in placing the trib in the days of the first 5 seals, but in error when they tried to force the 3.5 and 7 years into the trib, which periods have nothing to do with the Church, and everything to do with Israel. See the above statement.
  8. I don't get a whole lot of time online, so can't keep up with the day-by-day back and forth. Just want to let you know that practically my whole blog is an in-depth study of the various facets of post-trib, pre-wrath, 6th seal Rapture. Index here:
  9. Uh, but pre-wrath IS post-trib. Please don't muddy the waters. It may not be your version of post-trib, but pre-wrath is definitely post-trib.
  10. To repeat a point made much earlier in this string: The Church Age is an age of faith, in which those who come to faith in Christ before his return, and manifest their faith by deeds, will be taken up to the New Jerusalem in heaven at His coming in the clouds for His elect. After His coming, there is no more opportunity for that kind of faith, because "every eye will see Him." At that instant, there will be no doubt as to the authority of Jesus; therefore, only obedience -- which is of law/torah -- will remain. Therefore the Church Age is sandwiched between and completely distinct from Mosaic Torah 1 and Mosaic Torah 2.
  11. WilliamL

    Al Baghdadi.

    So what you believe is the first four verses are about one time, and everything that follows is unrelated? Isaiah 29 Ah, Ariel, Ariel, the city where David encamped! Add year to year; let the feasts run their round. 2 Yet I will distress Ariel, and there shall be moaning and lamentation, and she shall be to me like an Ariel. 3 And I will encamp against you all around, and will besiege you with towers and I will raise siegeworks against you. 4 And you will be brought low; from the earth you shall speak, and from the dust your speech will be bowed down; your voice shall come from the ground like the voice of a ghost, and from the dust your speech shall whisper. 5 But the multitude of your foreign foes shall be like small dust, and the multitude of the ruthless like passing chaff. And in an instant, suddenly, 6 you will be visited by the Lord of hosts with thunder and with earthquake and great noise, with whirlwind and tempest, and the flame of a devouring fire. 7 And the multitude of all the nations that fight against Ariel, all that fight against her and her stronghold and distress her, shall be like a dream, a vision of the night. Not unrelated at all: the former was the fall, the latter is the redemption. Line 4 indicates utter destruction, which the Romans did inflict on Jerusalem in 70 and 135 AD. Line 5 cannot follow from that event, because line 5 says Jerusalem's foes will be destroyed when they "fight against" it. Mutually exclusive wars.
  12. Matt. 21:43 "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof." Gal. 3:24 Wherefore the law [torah] was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. ... 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
  13. You did it again: quoting numbers of verses, not the verses themselves, which, like the one I quoted, do not actually prove what you say.
  14. WilliamL

    Al Baghdadi.

    Lines 1-4 speak of the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans. Has nothing to do with the end times. Towers and siegeworks were ancient tactics. Line 7 summarizes the deliverance of Jerusalem per Zech. 14.
  15. WilliamL

    Al Baghdadi.

    The problem with this is that the woman is identified by the angel as a city, so that rules the religion out. It is certainly fair to debate which city it will be, but scripture seems fairly clear it will be Jerusalem. No, religion is not ruled out. False religion is what Babylon was founded on: rebellion against God, exercised by both a kingdom of man AND pagan religion. And the city cannot be Jerusalem, because as has been pointed out many times, this Babylon city is to be destroyed, and Jerusalem is never prophesied to be destroyed in the End Times.
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