Once saved always saved?

[Heb 13:8]

14 minutes ago, RealPresence said:

Baptism is the normative meas of attaining grace.
HOWEVER, God can and does make exceptions - like the Thief on the cross.  He had no way of being baptized and came to belief at the time of his death.  This is called Baptism of Desire.

As I said - God can make exceptions but you never form doctrine based on the exception.

God doesn't make exceptions RP. Either you are born again or not. Man makes exceptions with man made doctrines (baptism of desire?? lol). The thief on the cross believed that Jesus is God, that is what saves you. Belief.

[RealPresence]

10 hours ago, woundeddog said:

RealPresence-- the good news is I know many folks- even cradle Catholics, that have come to the knowledge of the truth- and have discarded the chains of tradition and formal worship and have laid their burdens down at the feet of Jesus and know at this very moment that if it was their last breath they would be with the Lord--no doubts, no fears- no struggles with unresolved guilt or feelings of inadequacy-- Christ did pay it all and he's calling to you to trust him only

Ahhhh, so it's Tradition you're against.
WHY is that??  Why do you go against the word of God??

[RealPresence]

1 minute ago, Heb 13:8 said:

God doesn't make exceptions RP. Either you are born again or not. Man makes exceptions with man made doctrines (baptism of desire?? lol). The thief on the cross believed that Jesus is God, that is what saves you. Belief.

His belief didn't save him - his desire to follow Christ is what saved him.
That's real faith - bot just "belief".

In case you weren't aware - even the DEMONS believe and tremble (James 2:19).
Will THEY be saved??

[woundeddog]

9 minutes ago, RealPresence said:

For YOU to say that His Church is NOT a living entity - is to be completely ignorant of the gospel.

it is a living entity only in the sense that it is comprised of the body of saved belivers--- The Father is an enity, the Son is an entity, the Holy Spirit is an entity even the people that the RCC call saints are individual enititys, and yes if you believe  she is the Queen of Heaven Mary is an enity. I am an enitiy and you are an enity the church, is not an enity- Individual people can be indwelt by the Holy Spirit-- " greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world"-- and we are Sealed by the holy spirit as an ernest of our redemption. but the church is not indwelt by the Spirit because the church is not a person<<<< the point of all that is to say that the Holy Spirit explains scripture to the individual-  I am not sure what your definition of the gospel is, but the church does not play a part in salvation-

so I guess I ask you again, wouldnt you want to know you have a relationship with Jesus that is based solely on the fact that he knows your deepest heart and still loves you, and will not make you up through hoops to be with him in heaven?-- its a free gift, honest

[woundeddog]

16 minutes ago, RealPresence said:

In case you weren't aware - even the DEMONS believe and tremble (James 2:19).
Will THEY be saved??

you are mis-applying this verse- its not that they believe that is rejected- it says they believe God is one- the fact that is rejected is that even though they believe there is a God- they do not believe on Christ---

[woundeddog]

22 minutes ago, RealPresence said:

Why do you go against the word of God??

post scriptural Roman Catholic tradition is not the word of God

Edited December 10, 2016 by woundeddog

[thilipsis]

On 8/2/2016 at 3:41 AM, shiloh357 said:

A person who is born again is a transformed person.  They have a new heart and a sincere desire to serve the Lord.  A true follower of Jesus has a love for the Bible would not change a word of it.  

A genuine follower of Jesus isn't going to live in sin as murderers fornicators, idolaters, liars, etc.  A true follower of Jesus is someone who will be dedicated to living for Jesus.  They are not looking for a way to sin.

Christians can fall into sin and still be saved, God can destroy the flesh to save the soul. There was a guy at Corinth that was married to his step mother, Paul said put him out of the church and turn him over (I assume a prayer of some kind) to the power of Satan. There was also a wealthy group of Christians who were denying the poor at the love feasts, kind of a pot luck dinner. The poor Christians, many of whom were slaves went hungry while the wealthy Christians stuffed their faces and even got drunk. Paul tells them, some of you are ill and some of you sleep. In other words, because they were mistreating their fellow Christians God was punishing them. James 2 is dealing with the same problem and he even goes so far as to say, Can this kind of faith save you? Faith without works is dead.

Grace not only saves us but sanctifies us, apart from Christ we can do nothing and to make myself clear, your merit counts for nothing. If one were to ask the Apostle Paul how it is that he worked so hard and suffered so much and bringing so many the Gospel, he would, and did, tell us that it is by grace.

But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of themyet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. (I Cor. 15:10)

 

Quote

A genuine follower of Jesus will never deny Him. He or she has no desire to deny Him.  There is nothing in their heart that would ever deny Him. 

That's what happens when you are transformed from the inside out.

Hang on a sec, believers certainly deny Christ before men and later repent. Jesus, you must understand, is talking to his Apostles and disciples and he was constantly warning them you will be persecuted because of me. In the sermon on the mount he tells them to jump and shout and leap for joy for they persecuted the prophets, who were before you, the very same way. In Acts believers are flogged for being Christians, on their way home the Scriptures tell us they were rejoicing that they were found worthy to suffer for the name of Christ.

There's a story in Foxx's Book of Martyrs about a Roman Centurion who receives a hat from Nero and orders that all the soldiers in his company must bow a knee to it.  40 soldiers refused, they said they are Christians and could worship only Christ. The Commander ordered them to take off all their clothing and stand out on a frozen lake until they changed their minds. The commander is standing by a fire waiting, he truly admired their courage, they sang this song, 'We 40 soldiers for Christ are we, and from him will receive a crown'. Finally one of them comes off the lake, bows a knew and goes back to his tent. The commander then disrobes and joins his men on the lake. I'm not concerned about the one who went back to the tent, it's the 40 on the lake that interest me.

Sure we can sin, sure we can deny Christ but their are consequences. Whats important here is more what happens when we don't deny him then what happens when we do.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Edited December 10, 2016 by thilipsis

[Guest shiloh357]

2 minutes ago, thilipsis said:

Christians can fall into sin and still be saved, God can destroy the flesh to save the soul.

What I am talking about is full and final falling away and rejection of the Lord.  All of stumble at times, but that is not the issue. The issue is whether or not a genuine Christian will forsake the Lord and lose salvation, ultimately.  We have no biblical examples of that. 

Quote

Hang on a sec, believers certainly deny Christ before men and later repent.

I don't think so.  Denying Christ only proves that you were a professing believer, not a truly born again believer.

[thilipsis]

59 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

What I am talking about is full and final falling away and rejection of the Lord.  All of stumble at times, but that is not the issue. The issue is whether or not a genuine Christian will forsake the Lord and lose salvation, ultimately.  We have no biblical examples of that.

I don't know, it comes down to was being 'saved' actually includes:

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (Hebrews 6:4-6)

Ok this guy was enlightened, partook of the heavenly gift which I assume is the word of God, receives the Holy Spirit or at least experiences something from the Holy Spirit and falls away from the faith. Salvation is by grace through faith, you hear the gospel you believe the gospel, receive the Holy Spirit you are saved. It's like your saying this guy was just never saved as close as he was to it, he never was born again. You might be right but there is another possibility, you receive the word of God, your born again and even indwelled by the Holy Spirit the you fall away from the faith and I think this can happen. Was this person ever saved and I say no of course not, he had salvation and everything that comes with it but turned away from it. He had the same born again nature every other believer had but it never matured. Jesus tells us the word is like a seed, if the devil doesn't steal it away because of unbelief, the sun doesn't scorch it because of shallow roots, the weeds of worldly cares and the deceitfulness of riches doesn't chock it out it will bear fruit.

That seed is your salvation, that seed is the divine nature, that seed is how you are born again. Everyone gets the same seed, not everyone bears fruit. This is the thing though, it's a one time deal. If you do receive it, you believe and your filled with the Spirit you are for all intents and purposes saved. If you fall away and you really can fall away, it's forever. Even an unbeliever, a rotten sinner, has no regard for God nor man can conceivably live a rotten life, die, go to final judgment and be saved at final judgment. The only ones who go to hell are the children of perdition who are children of their father the devil the way Christians are children of God through Christ. These other undecideds God will just on the last day by their secret motives and I'm 100% sure, if there is anyway to save them God will. If you were a partaker of the heavenly gift, the seed, the promised Holy Spirit and you fall away from the faith your not only not saved, you are a child of perdition and lost forever.

Quote

I don't think so.  Denying Christ only proves that you were a professing believer, not a truly born again believer.

I can't disagree with that, nor can I agree with it entirely. To hear the gospel and believe is to receive the divine nature, that is exactly how you are born again. This guy, hears the gospel, believes and for all intents and purposes is a Christian. Either he was just intellectually persuaded and going through the motions, never really understood the gospel maybe or sort of accepted it without giving it a lot of thought. This guy goes out and denies the faith, I know of a guy who was a Pastor, left the church and now is a died in the wool atheist, bitter and even hostile to anything religious. What happened, you say he was never saved but I have no way of knowing for sure.

I think you can go through life, never really decide and then be saved at final judgment. I think once a believer is in Christ he is no more likely to be cast out then Christ is to be cast out of the Trinity. But you can leave, the devil and his angels Jude tells us, 'left their first estate'. God didn't kick them out of heaven, they just up and left, there was no inborn sin, the forbidden fruit, no temptations or allurements to entice them. They just left. Why I don't know but it does happen, some people turn away from the faith. Maybe their faith was insincere, maybe they didn't really understand they were just going through the motions. Or maybe they did have saving faith and rejected it for whatever reason.

I don't believe a Christian who falls into sin is going to lose their salvation, they will be disciplined, punished and perhaps even clocked out early but God is in the business of saving people not casting them into the lake of fire. God will do anything possible to save you, he gave his Son for you, I think that's all the proof I need for that. But there is this old paradox that goes can God make a rock that is too heavy for him to lift. If he can't he is not all powerful and if he can then it proves he is not all powerful but it's a false dilemma. The real question is what does it mean to be saved, what does it mean to be a child of perdition that can never be saved. God gives everyone a chance to decide and salvation comes down to hearing, understanding and believing the gospel, when you do you have salvation. The word of God is likened unto a seed, an incorruptible seed:

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. (1 Peter 1:23)

But we know from Jesus himself this seed can be sown in the heart, it can be lost through unbelief, a shallow heart or temptations of various kinds including worldly cares and the deceitfulness of riches the seed is effectively lost. You say such a person was never born again but I'm not sure it's that simple.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Edited December 10, 2016 by thilipsis

[woundeddog]

1 hour ago, RealPresence said:

Baptism is the normative meas of attaining grace.
HOWEVER, God can and does make exceptions - like the Thief on the cross.  He had no way of being baptized and came to belief at the time of his death.  This is called Baptism of Desire.

As I said - God can make exceptions but you never form doctrine based on the exception.

well it appears you have dodged the issue of the question by giving the exception, so I will answer for you.

Catholic dogma clearly states that an individual under normal circumstances can not be considered a child of God or enter heaven with out being baptized in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost-- any church, any where but by water- with out baptism, there is no hope of Heaven. This is Catholic dogma and tradtion.

The reason you avoided a clear answer is because you know that this requirement for salvation is an action or a work and is in clear opposition to Ephesians 2:8&9 " for by grace are you saved by FAITH, it is a GIFT of God not of WORKS least any man should boast". It shows that tradition is in error because it contradicts scripture.

 

RP you need to prayerfully consider how scripture has been mishandled by the RCC  and in sincerity ask if you feel eternally secure in this teaching-- I can tell you have a zeal for god, but the Bible admonishes us to examine our selves to see if we be of the faith-- the only faith that saves is" Jesus alone for my sins did atone"