Once saved always saved?

[Heb 13:8]

2 hours ago, RealPresence said:

His belief didn't save him - his desire to follow Christ is what saved him.
That's real faith - bot just "belief".

In case you weren't aware - even the DEMONS believe and tremble (James 2:19).
Will THEY be saved??

Underline: Belief did save him. Belief is what saves a person. Demons believe Jesus is God, but not their savior RP.

Rom 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

[Guest shiloh357]

1 hour ago, thilipsis said:

I don't know, it comes down to was being 'saved' actually includes:

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (Hebrews 6:4-6)

Ok this guy was enlightened, partook of the heavenly gift which I assume is the word of God, receives the Holy Spirit or at least experiences something from the Holy Spirit and falls away from the faith. Salvation is by grace through faith, you hear the gospel you believe the gospel, receive the Holy Spirit you are saved. It's like your saying this guy was just never saved as close as he was to it, he never was born again. You might be right but there is another possibility, you receive the word of God, your born again and even indwelled by the Holy Spirit the you fall away from the faith and I think this can happen. Was this person ever saved and I say no of course not, he had salvation and everything that comes with it but turned away from it. He had the same born again nature every other believer had but it never matured. Jesus tells us the word is like a seed, if the devil doesn't steal it away because of unbelief, the sun doesn't scorch it because of shallow roots, the weeds of worldly cares and the deceitfulness of riches doesn't chock it out it will bear fruit.

That seed is your salvation, that seed is the divine nature, that seed is how you are born again. Everyone gets the same seed, not everyone bears fruit. This is the thing though, it's a one time deal. If you do receive it, you believe and your filled with the Spirit you are for all intents and purposes saved. If you fall away and you really can fall away, it's forever. Even an unbeliever, a rotten sinner, has no regard for God nor man can conceivably live a rotten life, die, go to final judgment and be saved at final judgment. The only ones who go to hell are the children of perdition who are children of their father the devil the way Christians are children of God through Christ. These other undecideds God will just on the last day by their secret motives and I'm 100% sure, if there is anyway to save them God will. If you were a partaker of the heavenly gift, the seed, the promised Holy Spirit and you fall away from the faith your not only not saved, you are a child of perdition and lost forever.

If you study the context of Heb. 6:4-6 going all the way back up to Heb. 5:11, the issue being addressed is spiritual immaturity, not apostasy or forsaking the Lord.   The writer of Hebrews was talking about a Christian who is lazy or stagnant in their Christian walk and growth.  The word for "fall away" in the Greek is not referring to apostasy, but a falling out in their walk.   It gives the image of a athlete who falls out in a race because he is not in the physical condition needed to run the whole way. 

The writer's point is that they are not growing, not advancing, are still returning back to the elementary principles of the faith.  He says they need to move on to the deeper, more mature aspects of faith.
 

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I can't disagree with that, nor can I agree with it entirely. To hear the gospel and believe is to receive the divine nature, that is exactly how you are born again. This guy, hears the gospel, believes and for all intents and purposes is a Christian. Either he was just intellectually persuaded and going through the motions, never really understood the gospel maybe or sort of accepted it without giving it a lot of thought. This guy goes out and denies the faith, I know of a guy who was a Pastor, left the church and now is a died in the wool atheist, bitter and even hostile to anything religious. What happened, you say he was never saved but I have no way of knowing for sure.

I think you can go through life, never really decide and then be saved at final judgment. I think once a believer is in Christ he is no more likely to be cast out then Christ is to be cast out of the Trinity. But you can leave, the devil and his angels Jude tells us, 'left their first estate'. God didn't kick them out of heaven, they just up and left, there was no inborn sin, the forbidden fruit, no temptations or allurements to entice them. They just left. Why I don't know but it does happen, some people turn away from the faith. Maybe their faith was insincere, maybe they didn't really understand they were just going through the motions. Or maybe they did have saving faith and rejected it for whatever reason.

I don't believe a Christian who falls into sin is going to lose their salvation, they will be disciplined, punished and perhaps even clocked out early but God is in the business of saving people not casting them into the lake of fire. God will do anything possible to save you, he gave his Son for you, I think that's all the proof I need for that. But there is this old paradox that goes can God make a rock that is too heavy for him to lift. If he can't he is not all powerful and if he can then it proves he is not all powerful but it's a false dilemma. The real question is what does it mean to be saved, what does it mean to be a child of perdition that can never be saved. God gives everyone a chance to decide and salvation comes down to hearing, understanding and believing the gospel, when you do you have salvation. The word of God is likened unto a seed, an incorruptible seed:

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. (1 Peter 1:23)

But we know from Jesus himself this seed can be sown in the heart, it can be lost through unbelief, a shallow heart or temptations of various kinds including worldly cares and the deceitfulness of riches the seed is effectively lost. You say such a person was never born again but I'm not sure it's that simple.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

The nature of our inward transformation makes it impossible for a truly saved person to forsake the Lord.   It's like this:  I have nothing in me that would harm a baby or infant.  I have the power to do it, but I do not have the will, there is nothing in me to prompt it.   In the same way, I have no inclination, not the slightest that would ever prompt me to forsake the Lord.  The Bible doesn't even speak of a genuine believer forsaking the Lord and we have no examples given in Scripture.  Getting saved is simply being moved from one side of the ledger to the other.  It is a complete inward remake of ourselves, a new creation.

[RealPresence]

4 hours ago, woundeddog said:

it is a living entity only in the sense that it is comprised of the body of saved belivers--- The Father is an enity, the Son is an entity, the Holy Spirit is an entity even the people that the RCC call saints are individual enititys, and yes if you believe  she is the Queen of Heaven Mary is an enity. I am an enitiy and you are an enity the church, is not an enity- Individual people can be indwelt by the Holy Spirit-- " greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world"-- and we are Sealed by the holy spirit as an ernest of our redemption. but the church is not indwelt by the Spirit because the church is not a person<<<< the point of all that is to say that the Holy Spirit explains scripture to the individual-  I am not sure what your definition of the gospel is, but the church does not play a part in salvation-

so I guess I ask you again, wouldnt you want to know you have a relationship with Jesus that is based solely on the fact that he knows your deepest heart and still loves you, and will not make you up through hoops to be with him in heaven?-- its a free gift, honest

Wrong again.

Scripture tells us that the Church as a WHOLE is the living body of Christ - NOT the individual.
As individuals, we are only PARTS of the Body but not the WHOLE Body (1 Cor.12).

As for my relationship with Jesus - I never feel that he makes me "jump" through hoops.  It is my honor and blessing to serve Him.
I don't know why you feel that this is a chore.  
Obedience is at the HEART of faith.  It's not an addendum to it.

[RealPresence]

4 hours ago, woundeddog said:

post scriptural Roman Catholic tradition is not the word of God

"Post Scriptural" Traditions??

2 Thess 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, EITHER by an ORAL STATEMENT - OR or by a letter from us."

Paul never states that this should end once they have "written" it all down - because they DIDN'T.
Many traditions were handed down, including Infant Baptism, which, as the Early church Fathers attest - was an APOSTOLIC Tradition.  
The Canon of Scripture is a TRADITION.  There is NO list in the Bible as to which Books belong.

Paul puts Tradition ON PAR with Scripture.
There is NO expiration date on 2 Thess. 2:15.

 

[RealPresence]

2 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

Underline: Belief did save him. Belief is what saves a person. Demons believe Jesus is God, but not their savior RP.

Rom 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

Your problem is that you individualize certain verses to a point where they don't harmonize with the rest of Scripture.
This is what we Christians call "Cherry-picking" the Scripture.  For example - the following verse seems to trump the verses that you just presented.  However, to the educated Bible scholar - they harmonize perfectly because we take them ALL together instead of picking them apart:

Matt. 7:21
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ONLY the one who DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER in heaven.

Calling on Jesus and believing in him as our Savior is PART of what is required of us.
DOING the will of the Father is also required or the rest is null and void.

[RealPresence]

4 hours ago, woundeddog said:

well it appears you have dodged the issue of the question by giving the exception, so I will answer for you.

Catholic dogma clearly states that an individual under normal circumstances can not be considered a child of God or enter heaven with out being baptized in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost-- any church, any where but by water- with out baptism, there is no hope of Heaven. This is Catholic dogma and tradtion.

The reason you avoided a clear answer is because you know that this requirement for salvation is an action or a work and is in clear opposition to Ephesians 2:8&9 " for by grace are you saved by FAITH, it is a GIFT of God not of WORKS least any man should boast". It shows that tradition is in error because it contradicts scripture.

 

RP you need to prayerfully consider how scripture has been mishandled by the RCC  and in sincerity ask if you feel eternally secure in this teaching-- I can tell you have a zeal for god, but the Bible admonishes us to examine our selves to see if we be of the faith-- the only faith that saves is" Jesus alone for my sins did atone"

And you have once again FAILED to do your homework, which is why you just posted another LIE.

First of all - your assertion that Water Baptism in "ANY" Church is valid in the Catholic church is patently false.
ONLY Water Baptism in the Christian Trinitarian formula is considered valid.  Baptism, for example, in the Mormon church is NOT valid - even though they invoke the Trinity because they don't believe in the Deity of christ.  Hence, theirs is a false understanding of the Trinity.

Baptism in the Unitarian or Oneness Pentecostal tradition is not valid because they reject the Trinity.

Finally - your claim regarding the false notion that Catholics DON'T believe in salvation by Sola Gratia is nothing short of a bald face LIE. 

The Catholic Church has ALWAYS taught Sola Gratia - 1500 years BEFORE Luther claimed it for himself.  Jesus provided the means through cooperation with that grace by Baptism (John 3:5).

[Heb 13:8]

22 minutes ago, RealPresence said:

Your problem is that you individualize certain verses to a point where they don't harmonize with the rest of Scripture.
This is what we Christians call "Cherry-picking" the Scripture.  For example - the following verse seems to trump the verses that you just presented.  However, to the educated Bible scholar - they harmonize perfectly because we take them ALL together instead of picking them apart:

Matt. 7:21
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ONLY the one who DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER in heaven.

Calling on Jesus and believing in him as our Savior is PART of what is required of us.
DOING the will of the Father is also required or the rest is null and void.

Underline: Matt 7:21 is not speaking of born again christians. It's referring to false teachers. You must be born again to see the kingdom of God. Do you wanna be God to save your own life, or do you want to go to God to have life. I'm guessing you are striving to be God, no?

Matt 16:25 For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it.

John 5:39-40 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

[RealPresence]

5 hours ago, woundeddog said:

you are mis-applying this verse- its not that they believe that is rejected- it says they believe God is one- the fact that is rejected is that even though they believe there is a God- they do not believe on Christ---

WRONG.
Again - context is NOT your friend.

James is scolding the reader here in these verses.  This Book is written to people who - like YOU - are having issues understanding just what "Faith" means.  He uses terms like "ignoramus" to drive his point across.  Here s that verse again - in CONTEXT:

James 2:14-22
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Indeed someone may say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.

Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?  
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.  

James is basically saying:
"You believe that God is one - and that is enough, you moron??
Even the DEMONS believe in Him - so what good is your belief without works??"

Don't just QUOTE the Bible - LEARN what is means . . .

[Heb 13:8]

14 minutes ago, RealPresence said:

WRONG.

[thilipsis]

3 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

If you study the context of Heb. 6:4-6 going all the way back up to Heb. 5:11, the issue being addressed is spiritual immaturity, not apostasy or forsaking the Lord.   The writer of Hebrews was talking about a Christian who is lazy or stagnant in their Christian walk and growth.  The word for "fall away" in the Greek is not referring to apostasy, but a falling out in their walk.   It gives the image of a athlete who falls out in a race because he is not in the physical condition needed to run the whole way. 

It doesn't seem all that cut and dried to me:

 We have much to say about this, but it is hard to make it clear to you because you no longer try to understand. (Heb. 5:11)

Don't even try, that's a pretty serious indictment. I've seen an Olympic athlete do a perfect performance who had to dismount and salute the judges do a back flip and land on broken ankles, to rise and make the salute, I'll never forget it. Yea, if you quit there is no hope for you but how many simply don't, that's what matters to me. If you believe then you believe, if you fall away you fall away from the faith, it's as simple as that. I don't quit if I know that forever is on the line, I can't, this is for everything. We are still dancing around whether or not someone actually believes and is saved falling away. If you enter the faith you remain but if you abandon it then the seed is gone. There was nothing wrong with the seed, it was the soil. We can't judge that in someone else but don't we get to decide that for ourselves? You can start down the narrow path but you get to decide whether you enter the narrow gate. I really can't say when the time of decision is for you but I know this, if you abandon the faith it's over forever. Of course that assumes you ever had it. 

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The writer's point is that they are not growing, not advancing, are still returning back to the elementary principles of the faith.  He says they need to move on to the deeper, more mature aspects of faith.

Indeed, we must keep moving forward or we perish. To come to faith and then abandon it is fatal spiritually. Better if you never believed at all.

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The nature of our inward transformation makes it impossible for a truly saved person to forsake the Lord.   It's like this:  I have nothing in me that would harm a baby or infant.  I have the power to do it, but I do not have the will, there is nothing in me to prompt it.   In the same way, I have no inclination, not the slightest that would ever prompt me to forsake the Lord.  The Bible doesn't even speak of a genuine believer forsaking the Lord and we have no examples given in Scripture.  Getting saved is simply being moved from one side of the ledger to the other.  It is a complete inward remake of ourselves, a new creation.

You don't get to move from one side of the ledger to the other more then once. Just because some do doesn't mean some can't. The new nature comes from the word of God, you believe and receive. Now you only get one chance at the conversion and it faces a number of hazards. If you make it to the point where you are bearing fruit your salvation is a foregone conclusion, your salvation is guaranteed. If you walk away that's on you and whether or not you once believed is irrelevant. Now you can stumble in your walk and we all do, that's not what we are talking about. I'm talking about you believed and then you deny the faith, either by going back to the world or turning to legalism. The narrow path has two ditches, does it matter which one you end up in? If you start in the faith you much stay on the path, that much is clear.

It comes down to faith and what you believe matters, if you believe for a while and fall away there is no room for repentance, that much is clear. If you continue in the faith nothing can separate you from salvation, that much is clear. If you can receive salvation and then fall away not so clear. I think if it's possible for you to fall away from the faith it's fatal spiritually but still, you have a choice even after conversion.

 Grace and peace,
Mark

Edited December 10, 2016 by thilipsis