nebula Posted September 10, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted September 10, 2016 16 hours ago, Butero said: A private ministry or church is well within it's rights to control anything the members do. They can control how people dress, hair style, if they can have tattoos, that they must pay tithes, anything. We are free to go elsewhere if we don't like the rules. Why shouldn't a church be able to control the members? I personally want a church that controls the members to some degree. Why shouldn't I as a private individual be able to choose to join a controlling church? This is how cults operate. And this is how abusers operate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezra Posted September 14, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.35 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted September 14, 2016 On 9/9/2016 at 9:58 AM, GoldenEagle said: I'll ask again what passages specifically speak to Christian controlling other Christians in a positive light? And if you did see those passages, would you drop your crusade and go by what the Bible teaches? A lot of people want to "see the Scriptures" but after they are shown the Scriptures they refuse to relent or repent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted September 14, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted September 14, 2016 Butero, look up The Shepherding Movement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted September 14, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted September 14, 2016 2 hours ago, Butero said: I just looked up the Shepherding Movement. Derek Prince is the only name I am familiar with in that group, and I never followed his ministry. I don't agree with his teachings or the way they set things up, but that is why I wouldn't join with them. They still have a right to set things up that way. The Biblical order in the family is God the Father, Jesus Christ, the husband, the wife, the children. In the church, Christ is the head, and then you have the office of Bishop, deacons, and the ministry gifts. There is a Biblical chain of command, but not the way the Shepherding movement was founded. Still, it is not that much different than errors in other denominations and ministries. I have seen others set up what they called a group they are accountable to for public consumption. Why should anyone care what is taking place in churches other than their own congregation? Find a church you are happy with and don't worry about the rest. When your leadership punishes you for disagreeing with something they teach, are you OK with that? When a leader punishes you for telling them in love that he is doing something unscriptural, are you OK with that? When the leadership tells its members they will suffer God's judgement if they leave the church, are you OK with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted September 14, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.81 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Author Share Posted September 14, 2016 10 hours ago, Ezra said: And if you did see those passages, would you drop your crusade and go by what the Bible teaches? A lot of people want to "see the Scriptures" but after they are shown the Scriptures they refuse to relent or repent. Ezra, I'm not sure what you mean by "drop your crusade"? I'm simply discussing what I believe and trying to sort through this myself. I see no reason to relent or repent. I'm merely seeking to understand what the Bible teaches on this subject. Just because we don't agree on a passage doesn't mean it isn't worth discussing. First question, are your Biblical interpretations, personal convictions, and opinions 100% correct according to what the Bible teaches? Sometimes people believe in the either/or. I'm either right or I'm wrong. It is either blue or green. It is either believing in baptism by water or infant baptism. I can either be friends or enemies with a person. I've come to believe that many things are both/and. I can have one perspective and you can have another. We can both disagree and still have fellowship by the bond of Christ that unites us. Second question, do you view life through the either/or lens or the both/and lens? God bless, GE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted September 14, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.81 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Author Share Posted September 14, 2016 8 hours ago, Yowm said: 3 John 1:9-10 KJVS [9] I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not. [10] Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church. Yowm what do you think this passage has to do with the subject? I'm not sure I follow brother. God bless, GE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted September 14, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.81 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Author Share Posted September 14, 2016 On September 9, 2016 at 11:46 PM, Butero said: Discipline is used to control others. You discipline people so others will fear to break the rules. The Bible is full of examples of controlling church members. In Acts, we are told not to eat foods sacrificed to idols, or things strangled or blood, and to avoid fornication. That is controlling people. I'm guessing you are referring to Acts 15 with the dispute about circumcision and the Council of Jerusalem? Interestingly enough I read this chapter as people trying to control other and add to the Gospel by saying Christians had to be circumcised in order to be saved. Acts 15:1 But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” Paul and Barnabas disagree with the men of Judea. They take this issue to the apostles to settle. Peter's response is... Acts 15:10 Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? James response is... Acts 15:10, 19-20 Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood. The way I read it this passage is not about controlling others but giving Gentiles freedom not to have to convert to Judaism to be saved. If the apostles wanted to control others they would've given a very specific list. Instead, I come and was to abstain from idol worship and sexual immorality. I believe we can all agree given Christ's command to love God and love people (Matthew 22:36-40), that Christians should not be involved in those things correct? Interestingly enough too that today we as Gentiles eat animals that have been strangled and meat that has blood. Don't you think? God bless, GE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted September 14, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.81 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Author Share Posted September 14, 2016 8 hours ago, Yowm said: I posted that having Butero's post in mind... ...as well as the title of this thread. 3 John 1:9-10 I have written something to the church, but Diotrephes, who likes to put himself first, does not acknowledge our authority. So if I come, I will bring up what he is doing, talking wicked nonsense against us. And not content with that, he refuses to welcome the brothers, and also stops those who want to and puts them out of the church. Interesting. Here it is in the ESV. I have a hard time understanding the KJV wording so I always have to look it up in a different translation. God bless, GR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted September 15, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.81 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Author Share Posted September 15, 2016 On September 9, 2016 at 11:46 PM, Butero said: Discipline is used to control others. You discipline people so others will fear to break the rules. The Bible is full of examples of controlling church members... In 1 Corinthians, we are told that those who prophecy are to do so in a specific and orderly manner and women are to keep silent. That is controlling people. 1 Corinthians 14 speaks to prophecy and orderly worship. Apparently there was a lot of confusion and people were talking over each other. Both in speaking in tongues and prophesying. Here are some of the key passages I believe from this chapter. 1 Corinthians 14:4 The one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself, but the one who prophesies builds up the church. 1 Corinthians 14:22 Thus tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is a sign not for unbelievers but for believers. 1 Corinthians 14:27-33a If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret. But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God. Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said. If a revelation is made to another sitting there, let the first be silent. For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged, and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets. For God is not a God of confusion but of peace. From what I read this more about encouraging Christian people to have self-control as well as following orderly worship for edification and building up of the church. It is about people having self-discipline. I don't view this passage as favorable towards controlling people. Certainly not examples of controlling what people wear or specifics as to how they worship? (no drums for example or an organ is mandatory... Or that it has to be a band) God bless, GE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted September 15, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.81 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Author Share Posted September 15, 2016 On September 9, 2016 at 11:46 PM, Butero said: Discipline is used to control others. You discipline people so others will fear to break the rules. The Bible is full of examples of controlling church members. ... In 1 Timothy, bishops are told they must not be given to wine, can't be a novice, must rule their own house well, and their children must be obedient. They are told they must only have had one wife. This is controlling church members. The Bible is full of such examples. Depends on how you translate the passage. Im guessing you are talking about 1 Timothy 3 here. For example... Some people take a literal interpretation to this passage to mean only men can be overseers (pastors), deacons, and elders. Others believe that both men and women can serve in these positions. Some people view the idea of husband of just one wife to mean someone who has never been divorced. Others view it as someone who is committed to the person he or she is currently married to. Some people interpret not given to wine as an overseer or elder cannot drink alcohol. Others interpret this to mean those in said positions should not get drunk. Some view the the idea of children being obedient as a pastor's or elder's children should be Christians and well behaved. Others interpret that differently. So control in this instance is really more about how a particular church of domination interprets the passages on pastors and elders right? Not about specifically controlling church members... Are there such Biblical qualifications for Christians to be members of a church? Are these guidelines or laws set in stone? God bless, GE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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