What do you think about Boundaries?

[Ezra]

46 minutes ago, GoldenEagle said:

The sermon on the mount was not an assertion of laws but of principles of life, witnessing, and loving others. Wouldn't you agree?

And that's exactly my point.  The Sermon on the Mount essentially demolishes this recent secular idea about boundaries.

[GoldenEagle]

7 hours ago, kwikphilly said:

Blessings Golden Eagle

    I have not read this book but it does sounds like a good one......I know I couldn't possibly get around to it as I have "several "books here that I have not even opened yet, it will be a while before I can catch up on my reading & I've already took on too much ......gotta have boundaries -lol

   Gods Word gives us much instruction on setting up boundaries for ourselves, "for" & "from" others as well.......

Proverbs 22:24 - Make no friendship with an angry man; and with a furious man thou shalt not go:

Philippians 4:8 - Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things [are] honest, whatsoever things [are] just, whatsoever things [are] pure, whatsoever things [are] lovely, whatsoever things [are] of good report; if [there be] any virtue, and if [there be] any praise, think on these things.

2 Corinthians 6:14 - Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

Joshua 1:8 - This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.

Proverbs 21:19 - [It is] better to dwell in the wilderness, than with a contentious and an angry woman.

Colossians 4:6 - Let your speech [be] always with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.

Matthew 5:28 - But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

                                                                                       Just to mention a couple,Glory to God!                               With love-in Christ,Kwik

Hiya Kwik!  

Blessings sister and thank you for posting specific passages as examples. I see boundaries throughout Scripture.

Proverbs 22:24 - Our friendships should be with those who build us up. Now, that said we are also called to love our enemies though right? Didn't Jesus spend a lot of time with sinners?

Philippians 4:8 - Be a part of true, honest, just, pure, and good things. Avoid negativity then?

2 Corinthians 6:14 - Different people interpret this in different ways. I interpret it to mean we are to not be married to unbelievers. So a Christian should ideally not date a non-Christian either?

Joshua 1:8 - The law is a good teacher. Yet the law of Christ which sums up the OT law is to love God and love people per Mark 12:38-34. Following Christ's new command in John 13:34-35?

Proverbs 21:19 - So is this an excuse for a man to leave his wife and go into the wilderness? Or a warning to be careful who you marry?

Colossians 4:6 - Our speech should be gracious. Meaning we're to be kind when we speak the truth?  

Matthew 5:28 - It's not just about what you do. It's about what you think in your mind too?

God is good. All the time. All the time God is good! To Him be the glory!  

God bless,

GE

[Running Gator]

2 hours ago, Ezra said:

This mindset implies that the so-called special training of modern psychology and psychiatry has more merit than the work of the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Holy Spirit. The religious leaders of Christ's day also asked Him if He had any special training.

Christians should clearly understand that all mental and emotional problems are ultimately spiritual.  This view is rejected by secular counselors.

This right here is why untrained pastors should not be doing any counseling, they believe things like this.

[Running Gator]

6 minutes ago, Yowm said:

My guess is that the book in question is not dealing with symptoms that require medical treatment usually through medications, but is dealing in an area that any well versed pastor of the Scriptures is better prepared than a christian psychiatrist who only has a nominal grasp on the Scriptures.

The problem is that unless one has some actual training, they are very hard to tell apart.  I do not think being able to preach a sermon gives a person any sort of insight needed to counsel people on any sort of mental issue.

[Running Gator]

Just now, Yowm said:

and writing pop psychology books for $$$ ?

I do not know what you are trying to say

[Running Gator]

5 minutes ago, Yowm said:

Look up the authors bios on Amazon.

Dr. Cloud is a leadership consultant, best-selling author, and speaker whose books have sold well over 5 million copies. He consults and speaks for companies and organizations in the area of leadership and performance, and is highly regarded for his ability to connect personal and interpersonal development with the needs of business.
He is a clinical psychologist and leadership consultant with a unique ability to connect with audiences. Drawing upon his broad range of experiences in private practice, leadership consulting, and media, he simplifies life’s issues and gives easy to understand, practical advice. It’s Dr. Cloud’s humor, compassion and “in the moment” confrontation that make his approach to psychology, business and spirituality such a success.
Dr. Cloud has written, or co-written, more than twenty books, including the two-million-seller Boundaries and his most recent books, Necessary Endings, Integrity, The One Life Solution, The Law of Happiness and 9 Things You Simply Must Do. His books have sold over five million copies. His works have been reviewed and featured by such publications as The New York Times, The Wall St. Journal, The Boston Globe, The Los Angeles Times and many others. Dr. Cloud co-hosts the nationally syndicated radio program New Life Live, which is heard in over 180 markets.
As a speaker, he is a favorite at corporate events, conventions, and public arena events on a variety of topics, speaking regularly through the U.S. and internationally.
In his consulting practice, he works with leaders in a wide range of organizations and corporations, from family help firms to Fortune 25 and Fortune 500 companies. He has an extensive executive coaching background and experience as an organizational and leadership consultant, spending the majority of his hands-on time with CEOs and executive teams.
Dr. Cloud founded and built a health care company which operated treatment centers in forty markets in the Western U.S. for which he served as Clinical Director for ten years. In that context of hands-on clinical experience, he developed and researched many of the treatment principles and methods that he communicates to audiences now. After selling the company, he devoted his time to consulting and coaching, spreading principles of hope and life-change through speaking, writing and media.
He is a graduate of Southern Methodist University, earning a B.S. in psychology with honors. He completed his Ph.D. in clinical psychology at Biola University, and his clinical internship at Los Angeles County Department of Mental Health. His philanthropic interests lie in the area of homelessness and the inner city, as well as missions in the developing world. He lives in Los Angeles with his wife, Tori, and their two daughters, Olivia and Lucy.

[GoldenEagle]

 

16 hours ago, GoldenEagle said:

A. Separate but Equal. 

B. Tossed salad. 

C. Nothing buttery. 

D. Spoiling the Egyptians. 

Which of these A, B, C, D most closely represents your view on Christian Counseling?

7 hours ago, Out of the Shadows said:

What I have seen of Christian counseling is the "nothing buttery" approach, and personally I do not like it.  In the churches I attended any counseling was done by the pastor(s), and none had any special training for doing such a thing.   

Right the "nothing buttery" approach is saying that the Bible is the only way can lead to some serious errors in thinking and theology. Possibly some serious abuse as well. Pastors that do not have any training should seek training before counseling others. Here's some examples of what can happen and what nouthetic counseling can lead to:
 

Quote

 

1. Feelings are not to be trusted. Truth comes before feelings. God does not appreciate our feelings.
2. Suffering is a way of life for the Christian. We are to imitate Christ and He suffered . . . . so we must suffer.
3. There is a Bible verse for every problem. We were given books that had certain sins at the top of each chapter like . . . . “gluttony”, “divorce”, “anger” . . . . underneath were pat answers for everyone’s sin issues.
4. EVERY PROBLEM was actually a sin issue.
5. We cannot change anyone else, we can only change ourselves. So . . . . if, say, my husband were abusing me . . . . MY job was to work only on my reaction and make sure it is not sinful.
6. Marriage was held as the highest, most important entity. It was considered higher than our right to live.
7. ALL psychotropic drugs were bad, sinful and harmful.
8. A woman’s job is to submit to her husband, NO MATTER WHAT he is doing to her.

https://cryingoutforjustice.com/2012/10/02/abuse-and-nouthetic-counseling-a-firsthand-analysis-of-the-harm-it-does/

 

Interestingly enough a friend who was struggling with depression and loosing her mom went in to see a neuthetic counselor recently. The only response this counselor had was to say that all things work together for our good. She went 3 times and then never returned.

God bless,

GE

[GoldenEagle]

9 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

Christian counseling needs to be left to professional, licensed Christian counselors, not pastors.   Many pastors are not trained and unless one has specialized in counseling, they are in no position to be a counselor.   No few number of pastors have gotten themselves into legal hot water counseling someone when they were not qualified to be in that position.  God has gifted counselors with the training and passion for helping others and we need defer to them when appropriate.

I couldn't agree more.  

What kind of hot water are you referring to? Did you have some examples and/or links in mind?

8 hours ago, Out of the Shadows said:

I knew there had to be something we agreed on!  And now I found it! 

What??!? Shiloh and OotS agree on something? Wow that's kind of cool.  

God bless,
GE

 

[Guest shiloh357]

11 minutes ago, GoldenEagle said:

I couldn't agree more.  

What kind of hot water are you referring to? Did you have some examples and/or links in mind?

 

 

 

I listened to a lecture by a retired attorney back in my undergrad days.  And he talked about pastors who made the HUGE mistake of counseling women alone in their office.   He talked about how some times pastors either gave bad advice, or they gave good advice, but were sued when the client's marriage or relationship still went bad.  They didn't have the legal safeguards that professional counselors have and don't have the skills for that.  He knew about this because most of his 30 year career was helping pastors in legal trouble. 

The attorney said, "a couple of pastoral and marriage and family counseling classes do not make you qualified as a counselor."    He said that pastors should always refer people to Christian counselors and should always have the phone numbers of qualified counselors handy. 

[GoldenEagle]

4 hours ago, Ezra said:

This mindset implies that the so-called special training of modern psychology and psychiatry has more merit than the work of the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Holy Spirit. The religious leaders of Christ's day also asked Him if He had any special training.

Christians should clearly understand that all mental and emotional problems are ultimately spiritual.  This view is rejected by secular counselors.

1 hour ago, Out of the Shadows said:

This right here is why untrained pastors should not be doing any counseling, they believe things like this.

I agree OotS that this is a very problematic stance for counselors, pastors, and Christians in general to take.

I would highly disagree that all mental and emotional problems are ultimately spiritual. This view is rejected by many Christian counselors as well. Only 1 of the types of counselors accepts that all mental and emotional problems are spiritual in nature. That would only include Christian Counselors under #2 Evangelical Pastoral Counselors from post 28. The others do not generally believe this: 1. The Main Stream Pastoral Counselors, 2. Evangelical Pastoral Counselors, 3. Christian Professionals, 4. Theoretician Researchers, and 5. Evangelical popularizers.

Here's a link that explains the issues of someone counseling a victim of abuse or PTSD with nouthetic counseling:

Quote

Imagine an abuse victim, suffering the effects of ongoing, intense trauma (PTSD), coming to such a counselor. Is her behavior and thinking to be attributed to sin?  Yes.  But WHOSE sin?  Hers?  Hardly.  Oh yes, as Christians with the sinful flesh still remaining, victims of abuse are certainly prone to unbiblical thinking about what has or is happening to them.  They can respond sinfully to abuse.  But is that their chief problem?  No.  The problem is that these are wounded, traumatized people.  Would we counsel a person who has lost their legs in a traumatic car accident that their injury is due to their own sin?  Yet somehow, correct me if I am wrong, this is how Adams’ nouthetic counseling model communicates to me.  Sin!  Counter with Truth!  Change of thinking!  Problem solved, counseling success!

If you want to see an example of my concern, get a copy of Adams’ book, From Forgiven to Forgiving: Learning to Forgive One Another God’s Way, and read chapter 12.  There you will find Adams describing how a pastor should deal with a wife whose husband has committed adultery.  She initially and too quickly told her husband that she would not divorce him, but has now changed her mind.  The ensuing “counseling session” conducted by the pastor, with the husband present, is really nothing short of bullying this woman into remaining in the marriage.  She, in other words, is really treated as the problem.  Her husband, because he has run to the safety zone of  “Gee, honey, I’m sure sorry” – gets off the hook.  Abusers are very good at crying out “Olly, olly oxen free!”   (Olly olly oxen free  is a catchphrase used in such children’s games as hide and seek to indicate that players who are hiding can come out into the open without losing the game, that the position of the sides in a game has changed  or, alternatively, that the game is entirely over).  Adams seems to agree with this rule.

https://cryingoutforjustice.com/2012/03/22/is-nouthetic-counseling-appropriate-for-victims-of-abuse-and-ptsd-by-jeff-crippen/

The issue with nouthetic counseling is that sin is the only viable reason for the problem. What if you did not commit the sin but sin was committed against you? The tendency is to blame victims and excuse abusers. It takes the "nothing but" or "nothing buttery" approach from post 29.

So Ezra, nouthetic counseling is useful in some settings. But not in all settings or situations. It is fine for a person to believe that all mental and emotional problems are ultimately spiritual in nature. However, I would not expect everyone who is a Christian to believe that way no more than we should expect every person to believe in pre-tribulation. Wouldn't you agree?

God bless,
GE