Our mortal enemy has deceived the church with many lies!

[Guest Robert]

40 minutes ago, Judas Machabeus said:

I told you already. 

1. The Septuagint 

2. The Pharisee Canon

3. The Saducéen Canon

the possible forth one is the Essenes might have had their own canon. 

This is a matter of historical fact, google it. 

I asked for your specific sources on where you got your information from. "Google it" is just a dodge on your part: if you cannot provide either websites or academic info (books, publications, papers, etc), then you're just trying to "run people through the brambles". "Google it" is a tactic many atheists and others who are trying to destroy Christianity use to wear down people, and is intellectually dishonest.

When you're ready to have an honest discussion and not play stupid games, let me know. Otherwise, as far as I'm concerned, you're finished.

Edited October 3, 2016 by RobertS

[Guest shiloh357]

8 hours ago, Judas Machabeus said:

This is incorrect. There were at least 3 canons and possible 4.

The Septuigent which accounts for 80% of the OT quotes found in the new Testement so the NT writers considered it scripture. Also the the Parasees and Sadusees (forgive the spelling) each had their own Canons. It wasn't until after the temple was destroyed that the canon was closed. 

 This is complete hogwash.  The difference between the Sadducees and the Pharisees had nothing to do with the canon of Scripture.  The Sadducees only accepted the written Torah and not the Oral Law.   They did not reject the rest of the Old Testament.

 

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

6 hours ago, RobertS said:

I asked for your specific sources on where you got your information from. "Google it" is just a dodge on your part: if you cannot provide either websites or academic info (books, publications, papers, etc), then you're just trying to "run people through the brambles". "Google it" is a tactic many atheists and others who are trying to destroy Christianity use to wear down people, and is intellectually dishonest.

When you're ready to have an honest discussion and not play stupid games, let me know. Otherwise, as far as I'm concerned, you're finished.

Wow that was a bit rude. I'll be sure to hold you to the same standards. 

The topic of a Sadducees canon is debatable, so I'll concede that point and change my stance to there were 2 canons possible as many as 4

but my point still stands. There was the septuegent and the Pharissee caono. 

SO YOURE STILL WRONG about the canon being closed in 400BC. 

Mic drop

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

3 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

 This is complete hogwash.  The difference between the Sadducees and the Pharisees had nothing to do with the canon of Scripture.  The Sadducees only accepted the written Torah and not the Oral Law.   They did not reject the rest of the Old Testament.

 

My dear friend Shiloh  

There is debate regarding this, and it's a rabbit I don't feel like chasing. 

so perhaps the sadusees had the same canon or not. My point still stands with it without the sadusee canon.

[woundeddog]

16 hours ago, RobertS said:

Admittedly, these are just a few names, but it proves the point.

complete post Excellent- thank you

[Guest shiloh357]

2 hours ago, Judas Machabeus said:

My dear friend Shiloh  

There is debate regarding this, and it's a rabbit I don't feel like chasing. 

so perhaps the sadusees had the same canon or not. My point still stands with it without the sadusee canon.

You said there were 4 canons.  There was not even two.  There was one and only one, historically.   There is no real debate about that.

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

4 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

You said there were 4 canons.  There was not even two.  There was one and only one, historically.   There is no real debate about that.

You are incorrect my friend. The sepuegent and the Pharisee canons were different and the NT writers quoted from both. Actually 80% of the OT quotes come from the septuegent. So that's at least 2 canons. 

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

7 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

You said there were 4 canons.  There was not even two.  There was one and only one, historically.   There is no real debate about that.

I original said 3 with a possible 4th. And in the interest of staying on topic I choose not to engage on a sadusee canon debate and succeeded to point. 

[Guest Robert]

6 hours ago, Judas Machabeus said:

Wow that was a bit rude. I'll be sure to hold you to the same standards. 

The topic of a Sadducees canon is debatable, so I'll concede that point and change my stance to there were 2 canons possible as many as 4

but my point still stands. There was the septuegent and the Pharissee caono. 

SO YOURE STILL WRONG about the canon being closed in 400BC. 

Mic drop

You're very welcome to: in fact, my information comes from The Da Vinci Deception by Dr. Erwin Lutzer, 2004, Tyndale House, and from http://www.bible.ca/sola-scriptura-proof-texts.htm

And the standards I am using are the same standards used academically.

 

Edited October 3, 2016 by RobertS

[Hoddie]

23 hours ago, woundeddog said:

ya know- you may worship in the manner you feel is correct- Truthfully I just don't have the energy to to enter into futile debates- unless the Spirit works in your heart you will continue in your beliefs.

Thats unfortunate woundeddog, I was so looking forward to you and I discussing our faiths. I am also curious to how you come to the conclusion that the Spirit is not working in my heart.

It has been my experience that Most Followers of Catholicism are not comfortable with change.

If you mean leaving the Catholic Church, why in the world would I leave the Church that Jesus Christ Himself founded?

Bible says the watchman is responsible for sounding the warning- but if the people do not respond- it is not the watchman's fault-

It is also said by G.K Chesterton:

"A dead thing can go with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it."

Please consider the Shofar blown---

I hope not for the last time. You wouldn't reconsider? If it has, I feel it is my duty to finish what I started. I think I left off with Purgatory.

Purgatory: Biblical? Well let's see.

Matt.5:48. "You therefore must be perfect, as your Heavenly Father is perfect."

It stands to reason that since GOD is perfect, then Heaven has to be a perfect place, and nothing imperfect can enter (Revelation 21:27). GOD will not join Himself to anything defiled. If a person dies with sins not sufficient for hell (the sin unto death, 1John 5:16-17), and has lesser sins to prevent entry into Heaven, then there has to be a third place in which to atone for them. This would be a temporary place, as stated in Matthew 5:25-26, "You shall not come out until you have paid the last penny". Come out of where?

After Adam's sin, the gates of Heaven were closed, and no one was allowed to enter (John 3:13) until Jesus Christ redeemed the human race and opened the gates once again. Where were the spirits of Moses and Elias, who appeared and spoke with Jesus at the transfiguration (Matthew 17:3)? They could not have been in Heaven since it was closed, and they would have been lost had they been in hell. They had to have been in a third place. If there was a third place then, why not a third place now?

What about Lazarus? He was already dead four days (John 11:17) when Jesus arrived at his tomb. Where was his soul during those four days? It could not be heaven or hell for the same reasons as for Moses and Elias. His soul had to have been in a third place

Here are a few more Scripture verses for Purgatory:

Sir 7:33, Isa 6:5-7, Isa 61:1, *2Macc 12:38-46, Mal 3:2-3, Mt 5:25-26,48, Mt 17:1-8, Mt 25:31-46, Lk 6:19-31,
Lk 12:58-59, *1Cor 3:12-15, 2Cor 5:10, Eph 6:18, Phil 2:10, 2Tim 1:16-18, Jam 1:12,5:19-20, Heb 9:27, Heb 12:23, 1Pet *1:3-7, 1Pet *3:13-20, *1Pet 4:6, Rev 6:9-10, Rev 21:27,22:14-15.

　

The greatest torment in Purgatory is to be separated from GOD for a period of time. Remember, in this life we have five senses, and they are always a distraction for us when we try to concentrate on things of GOD such as prayer. After we leave this life, we are spirit and have lost our five senses. There are no more distractions.

 

Purgatory should be regarded as a great blessing from GOD. Even though souls there are in torment, it is only a temporary torment. All who go there are assured of eventually gaining the Kingdom of Heaven.

It sure beats the third alternative...

　

also check Hazards lengthy post on this topic---

I have, just more anti-Catholic hub-bub with nothing to back it up.

its very good

You think so? I find it uneasy to consider it good when the source of his information is not revealed. As far as I know, he it got it off some anti-Catholic web-site like Jack Chick, Carm.com, or got questions.com. If so, that would be like asking the Ku Klux Klan to give their views on African Americans or the Jews.

　

Peace