Do you view life through the "either/or" or the "both/and" lens?

[GoldenEagle]

8 hours ago, Butero said:

I don't think anyone can give an across the board response to this.  I believe there are issues where we can certainly disagree and still fellowship together, and there are others where that is not possible.  Let me give you an example.  Lets suppose I am part of a church that is very controlling.  You come to that church.  Can you disagree on how that church is run and "have fellowship by the bond of Christ that unites?"  I would venture to say that we are both of the either/or type of believer on opposite sides of the fence.  Am I wrong in thinking that is the case? 

If we are simply talking about being able to be civil to one another, that is certainly possible with some effort, but it feels like you are talking about more than that.  If a person joined WB who was a follower of Bill Gothard, and they were promoting his positions across the board, could you remain "friendly and respectful without getting your feelings hurt?"  I wish we all could do that.  I wish it were possible for two people to completely disagree on matters like how controlling a church should be and just agree to disagree, without resorting to accusing people of not having a heart or being unfeeling towards people they claim were hurt by a church like the one they choose to attend.  I wish Christians could accept other members in the body of Christ that don't share their views, but I don't think it is possible, based on the kind of attitudes I see promoted lately.  I can accept that as many as 90 percent of the churches will not agree with my view, so long as they leave the 10 percent that I do agree with alone, but it seems like nobody is content to do that. 

Perhaps there is a difference between unity and comformity in the Church?

It so depends on how you view the term accept.

It might surprise you to know that one of my best friends still has a very strong positive opinions about Bill Gothard and his teachings. I'm also from a Baptist background and he is from a Presbyterian background.

Perhaps instead of making judgements a better approach is to ask questions?

God bless,

GE

[GoldenEagle]

2 hours ago, hmbld said:

I think you are mistaken, at least about some of us who believe we must be led by the Holy Spirit rather than a set of strict laws, on your assessment that we "are free to do as you please".  Rather, I think following a set of strict laws is closer to doing as you please.  Trying to meet some unattainable goal, and maybe not judging, but certainly making others feel judged that they can't get all these rules sorted out right.  

I would agree here! ?

[GoldenEagle]

12 hours ago, Ezra said:

GE,

There has been a common misunderstanding among Christians (at least in North America) that there are some "essentials" and some "non-essentials".  But that is not really what is revealed in the Bible. "The faith once delivered to the saints" (Jude 3) includes all Christian truth, or more accurately all Bible truth (2 Tim 3:16,17).  

In some areas such as dietary restrictions (or none) and observance of holy days (or none) there is Christian liberty.  And that is only because there would be Jewish brethren who would continue to practice what they were taught under the Old Covenant.  Other than that, we cannot talk about essentials and non-essentials.

For example some people wonder whether believing in the creation account as recorded is an "essential".  Well as a matter of fact it is (Rom 5:12, and in fact the whole chapter): Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

If Adam was not a real historical person, then this would not be true, which means the Gospel would be false.

Okay this is a good example. ? It seems you, like me, are a young earth creationist. Is that correct? You believe in a literal 6 day of creation. As well as Adam and Eve were real people who lived a long time ago.

Yet not every Christian believes this. Many believe in old earth creationism or some even believ in the theory of evolution. So can you and I not have fellowship with them?

God bless,

Ge

[GoldenEagle]

2 hours ago, enoob57 said:

I am building off what Ezra has already stated:
The issue at hand is black or white and no grey... as satan uses subtlety so the slide from light to darkness! It is a matter of perception based on the internals of the person but the overall is in the spiritual best seen in The Lord's desire of us
Revelation 3:15 (KJV)
[15] I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
[16] So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
[17] Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
James 3:12 (KJV)
[12] Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.
Matthew 6:23-24 (KJV)
[23] But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!
[24] No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
as these verses indicate either or... in The Lord there is no darkness at all! Why then would the children of light be settled with grey?
Love, Steven 

Is loving God and serving Him dependent on a person's view of creation?

One of our ministers at church said this week in Bible study he used to feel persecuted by other believers at his previous church. These people wanted to have things done their way and were resistant to change. This minister's family was adopting two children and one was of a different race. This didn't seem appropriate to these other people. 

Instead of viewing them as  persecutors he began praying for them and having compassion for them. He tried to put himself in their shoes and get to know them.  He began realizing that the Holy Spirit is working in their lives just as much as he was looking in his life. 

His struggles were not the same as their struggles. Their struggles were not the same as his struggles.

This was a paradigm shift for how he approach people that made his life difficult or who he disagreed with. 

Oh that we could do the same right?

God bless,

Ge

[Guest Butero]

59 minutes ago, GoldenEagle said:

Perhaps there is a difference between unity and comformity in the Church?

It so depends on how you view the term accept.

It might surprise you to know that one of my best friends still has a very strong positive opinions about Bill Gothard and his teachings. I'm also from a Baptist background and he is from a Presbyterian background.

Perhaps instead of making judgements a better approach is to ask questions?

God bless,

GE

Perhaps if you would read what I said more carefully, you would notice I did ask questions.  I just went back and counted 3 questions.  I told you what I thought but didn't want to make assumptions so I asked you directly. 

[GoldenEagle]

On September 17, 2016 at 11:17 AM, Butero said:

Perhaps if you would read what I said more carefully, you would notice I did ask questions.  I just went back and counted 3 questions.  I told you what I thought but didn't want to make assumptions so I asked you directly. 

How do you view the term accept? How do you define the term?

How do you view the term unity? How do you define the term?

Because from what I can tell we clearly have different views of the the use of the term "legalism". It occurred to me we may not have the same definition of these words. 

God bless,
GE

[Ezra]

On 9/17/2016 at 9:46 AM, GoldenEagle said:

Yet not every Christian believes this. Many believe in old earth creationism or some even believ in the theory of evolution. So can you and I not have fellowship with them?

GE,

Perhaps we can have fellowship with old earth creationists up to a point.  

But then the question will arise for them to answer "Do you believe that the Ten Commandments were literally written by the finger of God?"  Let's say they agree.  

Then the next question would be "If you agree, then why do you deny what is in the fourth commandment (Exodus 20:8-11)?" since the fourth commandment demolishes old earth creationism.  

So they either abandon their belief, or fellowship is not possible. To question the validity and veracity of the Ten Commandments is to question the whole of Scripture. I trust you can see that there are no *non-essentials*, and genuine fellowship is based upon unity of doctrine as well as unity of faith.

[Ezra]

On 9/17/2016 at 9:58 AM, GoldenEagle said:

Is loving God and serving Him dependent on a person's view of creation?

To love God and to serve Him is to firstly believe Him and trust Him.  If we cannot trust Him for the creation account, then we have a problem with loving and trusting God in all other areas. Christ accepted the creation account as totally historical and correct.  So must all His disciples.

[*Deidre*]

I think it depends on the topic. And it also depends on how people state things...if someone states something as ''I believe that Jesus is not the Lord and Savior.'' I can accept that statement, because it's their opinion. If someone were to say ''You are wrong, Jesus is not the Lord and Savior,'' then I'd point out why I feel they are wrong. So, I think context is everything, and so are the subjects you are speaking about. 

[GoldenEagle]

Someone wrote something similar to this below that really resonated with me so I'm going personalize it and share here.

Perhaps it's really more of a spectrum? On either end of the spectrum we have absolute right and absolute wrong. Not many things fall on the ends. In the middle is a whole bunch of grey in varying shades. 

Or perhaps it is best to be guided by principle. So if kindness towards others is a guiding principle, there may be different ways that can be expressed.

Especially if you add culture into the expression of kindness.  So in black and white terms, kindness is right, unkindness is wrong. How that is expressed is the varying shades of grey.

Whether or not I agree with a person, kindness (love) and their worth as a person is the overarching principle that should guide my interaction. 

I also find that when I just see people as worthy of my love and respect simply because they exist and God loves them, black and white seems not to matter less.

Thoughts?

God bless,

Ge