QUESTIONS concerning 1Cor.15 & 1Thes.4

[Marcus O'Reillius]

10 minutes ago, OneLight said:

if we cannot reply in love with patience, then we should back off until we can.  We are not here to prove anything, but to share Christ.

That's why I waited until today.

I did not think 'demanded' was hateful.

[OneLight]

2 minutes ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

True: that is the first use of the term.

And John truthfully reports what they say.
But ~ are the wicked - who don't "get" God right, ever - are they right about what God is about to do when the sun/moon/star event shakes them up?

As I read the parallel account to the Seal/Scroll chronology - the broad overview to the end-times - in its detailed, parallel account in Revelation chapters 13-16 --

In chapter 14, after the midpoint abomination of the talking image - we see:

• 1-5 Jesus with the 144,000 of the sixth Seal standing on Mount Zion.
• 7-12 Three Angels who 1.) Complete the Gospel Command of Mt 24:14 and 2.) Warn the wicked that they will perish.
• 13 An announcement.
• 14-16 The Harvest.
• 17-20 God's Wrath involving blood and fire - which also come with the first Trumpet - IAW Rev 8:7.

In this linear narrative spelling out a timeline series of events (the announcement is not an event per se) the wicked will "know" God's Wrath is coming.

My point:
At the time of the end, when Jesus is coming - He is NOT coming for them NEXT.
The wicked "know" God's Wrath is coming, and it will come.

However, and moreover! ~ God does not reveal to John ANY desolation coincident with the sixth Seal which affects the world like the Trumpet Judgments which follow the Harvest.

So the statement that the wicked make is not necessarily true.  It is only true that they say that at that particular time.
I always consider who is speaking when considering what is in the Bible.  Not all sources are the same.

 

If we consider how God spoke to us before we accepted Him, and relate that experience to those in Revelation 6, then I believe we can have a really good idea if they are getting it right or not.  When God called me to repent, He was pretty specific to me with details of what He sees.  I believe God will continue to call the lost until they accept the mark, which has not yet happened in that particular timeline, in my opinion.

[OneLight]

5 minutes ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

That's why I waited until today.

I did not think 'demanded' was hateful.

No, it is an absolute statement, something we should never require from anyone about how they reply to us.  I someone refuses, or lacks scriptural references, then what they post are seen by others as questionable. 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

12 minutes ago, OneLight said:

If we consider how God spoke to us before we accepted Him, and relate that experience to those in Revelation 6, then I believe we can have a really good idea if they are getting it right or not.  When God called me to repent, He was pretty specific to me with details of what He sees.  I believe God will continue to call the lost until they accept the mark, which has not yet happened in that particular timeline, in my opinion.

And to the contrary, I would say based on the similarity between the sixth Seal's precursor celestial signs to the Day of the Lord from the Old Testament and the Olivet Discourse by Jesus (same source: God) ~ that the matching -in order- of both the 144,000 the Harvest of Revelation chapter 14 - and the listing of the 144,000 and the Great Multitude showing up in Heaven as the result of that Harvest in the sixth Seal ~ describe the same time frame.

Therefore, as the talking image of Rev 13:14-15 precedes the arrival of Jesus in Rev 14:1 in one linear narrative - that likewise, in the parallel timeframe of the sixth Seal - that the those in hiding already have taken the 'mark of the beast' and worshipped his image.

So I would say the wicked have taken the 'mark of the beast' has happened by that time -and as I read further into God's desolations - none of the people left repent UNTIL the very end, when those (Jews) in Jerusalem survive the Great Earthquake at the end - finally praise God.

Edited December 19, 2016 by Marcus O'Reillius

[OneLight]

3 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

And to the contrary, I would say based on the similarity between the sixth Seal's precursor celestial signs to the Day of the Lord from the Old Testament and the Olivet Discourse by Jesus (same source: God) ~ that the matching -in order- of both the 144,000 the Harvest of Revelation chapter 14 - and the listing of the 144,000 and the Great Multitude showing up in Heaven as the result of that Harvest in the sixth Seal ~ describe the same time frame.

Therefore, as the talking image of Rev 13:14-15 precedes the arrival of Jesus in Rev 14:1 in one linear narrative - that likewise, in the parallel timeframe of the sixth Seal - that the those in hiding already have taken the 'mark of the beast' and worshipped his image.

So I would say the wicked have taken the 'mark of the beast' has happened by that time -and as I read further into God's desolations - none of the people left repent UNTIL the very end, when those (Jews) in Jerusalem survive the Great Earthquake at the end - finally praise God.

I believe that the seals are opened far before the mark is introduced by their positioning in the timeline.  It's been a few months since I last reviewed Revelation. 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

7 minutes ago, OneLight said:

I believe that the seals are opened far before the mark is introduced by their positioning in the timeline.  It's been a few months since I last reviewed Revelation. 

I would not agree in whole.

In fact, I think the first four may already be opened, the fifth has no firm tie-in to the one 'seven', and the sixth is tied to the Day of the Lord - which has yet to come.

In the detailed parallel account to the Seal/Scroll chronology, in Rev chapters 13-16 the Day of the Lord, with its Harvest of Saints, cones after the midpoint abomination revealed to be a talking image of the anti-Christ.

This agrees with Jesus' Olivet Discourse with it's listing of the midpoint abomination, then the Great Tribulation, and then the same sun/moon/star event heralding the Day of the Lord.  Then Jesus comes and as with Rev 14:14-16, then gathers the Elect.

These show up in the barn of Heaven as the Great Multitude in Rev 7:9-17.  These people come out of the Great Tribulation, just as Jesus outlined in the Olivet Discourse.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

9 hours ago, inchrist said:

Yet remarkably I provided scriptures showing Christ coming with his rewards.

A false proof.

Finding two times the word "reward" is used and then jumping to an unsupported conclusion does not show He "comes" WITH the rewards He will give.

There are seven Crowns in the NT as a couple of writers have listed them.  We will give an account of ourselves at the "unveiling".  We will be rewarded for what we have done - our sins being washed clean by the blood of the Lamb so we are not judged guilty as we should be...

And that is for the hereafter.  Saying it is on earth is not supported anywhere in the text.

So you have manifested TWO of my complaints about how you post - You demand others perform false tests, and you link Scripture without context.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

8 hours ago, inchrist said:

The scrolling of the sky is not an indication that the throne room of God is open. 

I didn't say that.

You're setting up a straw-man argument.  That's a fallacy in argument.

I said I thought the "sign" of the Son of Man (Mt 24:30) was the scrolling of the sky that comes after the sun/moon/star event of the sixth Seal (Rev 6:14).

[Salty]

19 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

No, those statements of mine about the statements for the Great Multitude do show our blessed hope.

The evidence that they in Heaven is what you didn't read.
The statements that they will administer to the Lord also do not dictate your supposition - that we do it on the earth in Jerusalem.

What evidence would that be, because my Bible does not say the Church is raptured to Heaven. Nor does it say anywhere that we reign with Jesus from Heaven. The Heaven I'm talking about is a place where The Father's throne is.

Being in Heaven where The Father is, is not simply about being changed at the twinkling of an eye to the spiritual body that Paul taught and being "caught up" to Jesus as He DESCENDS to earth. You should be using enough common sense to realize when Paul taught we are gathered to Jesus when He DESCENDS... from Heaven, to know being gathered in the air and clouds does not mean Heaven where The Father is.

Previous posters here as with my posts, have shown enough Scripture evidence that Jesus' Millennium reign is here on earth with His elect. If you wish to continue believing in fairy tales created by those of the 1800's like John Darby et al of being taken to Heaven that's your choice.

 

19 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

What Ezekiel 44:15 says is that Levites "who kept charge of My sanctuary when the sons of Israel went astray from Me, shall come near to Me to minister to Me; and they shall stand before Me to offer Me the fat and the blood,” ~ That is a Millennium passage, and it describes two sets of Levite Priests who lived before - who will live again... which is not something that can happen during the Church Age when we have but one life to life: Heb 9:27.

Ezek 44:10-13
10 And the Levites that are gone away far from me, when Israel went astray, which went astray away from me after their idols; they shall even bear their iniquity.

11 Yet they shall be ministers in my sanctuary, having charge at the gates of the house, and ministering to the house: they shall slay the burnt offering and the sacrifice for the people, and they shall stand before them to minister unto them.

12 Because they ministered unto them before their idols, and caused the house of Israel to fall into iniquity; therefore have I lifted up mine hand against them, saith the Lord GOD, and they shall bear their iniquity.

13 And they shall not come near unto me, to do the office of a priest unto me, nor to come near to any of my holy things, in the most holy place: but they shall bear their shame, and their abominations which they have committed.
KJV

Those are the Levites that went astray. The ones you mention are those of Israel that did not go astray.

Here's the verses you only partially... quoted, purposefully leaving out the "Zadok":

Ezek 44:15-16
15 But the priests the Levites, the sons of Zadok, that kept the charge of my sanctuary when the children of Israel went astray from me, they shall come near to me to minister unto me, and they shall stand before me to offer unto me the fat and the blood, saith the Lord GOD:

16 They shall enter into my sanctuary, and they shall come near to my table, to minister unto me, and they shall keep my charge.
KJV

That shows the Zadok, which means the Just, represent those who are allowed to approach Christ in that time and serve Him. I showed you the difference with the priests who went astray in Rev.3:9 with those of the "synagogue of Satan" being made to bow and worship at the feet of Christ's elect of the Church of Philadelphia. That means they are next to Jesus when those wicked come to worship Him. Those represent Christ's Church of both believing Israel and believing Gentile, for like Paul said, under Christ we are all one, there is no difference between Jew and Gentile (Gal.3:28).

 

Furthermore, God begins His rebuke of the priests pointing to the "house of Israel":

Ezek 44:6-8
6 And thou shalt say to the rebellious, even to the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; O ye house of Israel, let it suffice you of all your abominations,

7 In that ye have brought into my sanctuary strangers, uncircumcised in heart, and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in my sanctuary, to pollute it, even my house, when ye offer my bread, the fat and the blood, and they have broken my covenant because of all your abominations.

8 And ye have not kept the charge of mine holy things: but ye have set keepers of my charge in my sanctuary for yourselves.
KJV

The "house of Israel" after the days of Solomon represents only... the ten scattered tribes of Israel. They were scattered out of the holy lands after Solomon's days never to return as a people, as they were the tribes of the northern kingdom under one from Ephraim (1 Kings 11 forward). Their migrations point to the Christian west, as Jesus said He was sent to the "lost sheep of the house of Israel". Many of those became members of Christ's Church. Even many Jews have become members of Christ's Church, so Darby's Dispensationalist ideas about the Church being a separate entity from God's Israel is simply a big wishing well when compared to God's Word.

 

 

[Salty]

20 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

If you do not read another's explanation to put the relevant quoted material in context - then you cannot say I failed to address your specific allegation that Revelation 7:9-17 is Millennium in its timeframe.

I tried to break it down for you, but you won't respond in return.  Merely repeating the initial charge is hardly debate.

You trying to lecture me on the order of the Revelation Seals, Trumpets, and Vials is irrelevant to the timing shown in Rev.7 about the "great multitude", especially when you do NOT even know the proper order of the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials of Revelation.

Since you are being disrespectful and belligerent, I'm being very serious with you now; you are listening to men's doctrines of a pre-trib rapture theory and are spiritually drunken on that doctrine of men so that you are unable to see what God's Word actually is teaching. Their doctrine has blinded you spiritually.

In Jesus' Olivet discourse of Matt.24 and Mark 13, He gave the very signs there that He gave John in His Revelation. In His Olivet discourse Jesus gave only 7 Signs! He did not give 21 signs. Do you know what that means regarding the signs He gave in His Revelation? It means He gave 3 different sets of examples of events to occur with those main 7 Signs of His Olivet discourse. The very last sign He gave was that of His coming.

So it's a mistake to isolate Revelation from the rest of His Word, especially since He based His Revelation on the teachings He gave in the rest of His Word starting with His OT prophets and all the way down to include Apostle Paul.

 

Edited December 20, 2016 by Salty