QUESTIONS concerning 1Cor.15 & 1Thes.4

[Marcus O'Reillius]

On 11/17/2016 at 5:30 PM, WailingWall said:

Again no scripture to prove what you say. Tell me missmuffet, how many general resurrections are yet to happen?

I've given you the Scripture you demanded of missmuffet, and so defended her - and there are TWO resurrections to Heaven.
(There is a third resurrection in Ezekiel, but that is for the Jews who lived before, to live again on this earth.)

[Marcus O'Reillius]

On 11/17/2016 at 5:41 PM, WailingWall said:

OK. The reason i asked about the resurrections is because what i found in Zeke 37

When 1Thes.4 takes place, what really happens? The rapturist would have you to believe we fly off to heaven. What do the scriptures say? Keep in mind that many Rapturist claim youll find nothing of the so called rapture in the book of the prophets {the old testament} but....

EZEK.37 [12] Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I WILL OPEN YOUR GRAVES, AND CAUSE YOU TO COME UP OUT OF YOUR GRAVES, and bring you into the land of Israel. [13] And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

Theres THE DEAD IN CHRIST who rise first (1Thes.4). The first resurrection. But..... there not headin for heaven.

Ezekiel 37 is not said in the context of what happens on the Day of the Lord.  There is no indication for that.
Indeed, the indication given in the context of this chapter is set up previously in God telling the natural branches of the olive tree which is Israel (the people) what He will do AFTER the Day of the Lord.

Ezekiel 36:22 "Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'Thus says the Lord God, "It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went. 23 I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the Lord," declares the Lord God, "when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight. 24 For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. 28 You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God.

First: this is given to the house of Israel: not the spiritual Israel that Paul alludes to.
Second: the nations will know by proof that Jesus is Lord.
Third: they are all in the Promised Land.
Fourth: they will have a new heart, and a new spirit.  Such a thing has not yet happened with the formation of the modern nation of Israel.

In that context, Ezekiel is set in a valley of bones in the aftermath of the Armageddon and the whole of the one 'seven'.

Ezekiel 37:1 The hand of the Lord was upon me, and He brought me out by the Spirit of the Lord and set me down in the middle of the valley; and it was full of bones. 2 He caused me to pass among them round about, and behold, there were very many on the surface of the valley; and lo, they were very dry.

NOTICE: 
1. The ones being resurrected are NOT alive.  That IS a condition of 1Th 4:17.
2. The ones being resurrected are NOT in Paradise.  This is the valley, not the afterlife.

Now let's put your pull quote within context of the promise God made in chapter 36.

Eze 37:11 Then He said to me, "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel; behold, they say, 'Our bones are dried up and our hope has perished. We are completely cut off. ' 12 Therefore prophesy and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord God, "Behold, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, My people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel. 13 Then you will know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves and caused you to come up out of your graves, My people. 14 I will put My Spirit within you and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, the Lord, have spoken and done it," declares the Lord. '"

Ezekiel 37 happens after God has not only proved who He is - which is not a current condition whereby we come to Him by faith, but this is proof: every eye will see Him - AND He removes the Jews out of the nations to Israel. 
They had been cut off: they were not faithful.
They are not all in Israel.
They will have His Spirit put in them just as God said in chapter 36.

This happens in Zechariah 8:23

Thus says the Lord of hosts, 'In those days ten men from all the nations will grasp the garment of a Jew, saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you."'"

The reason there is a 30 and 45 day period of Daniel 12 between the second half of the one 'seven' (1260 days) and the Millennium (which happens after 1335 days) is for the sojourn and subsequent Sukkot encampment at Mount Zion before the Millennium Reign of Christ Jesus dictated in Zechariah 8:3.

Those who lived before - WILL - live again:

Ezekiel 44:10 But the Levites who went far from Me when Israel went astray, who went astray from Me after their idols, shall bear the punishment for their iniquity. 11 Yet they shall be ministers in My sanctuary, having oversight at the gates of the house and ministering in the house; they shall slaughter the burnt offering and the sacrifice for the people, and they shall stand before them to minister to them. 12 Because they ministered to them before their idols and became a stumbling block of iniquity to the house of Israel, therefore I have sworn against them," declares the Lord God, "that they shall bear the punishment for their iniquity. 13 And they shall not come near to Me to serve as a priest to Me, nor come near to any of My holy things, to the things that are most holy; but they will bear their shame and their abominations which they have committed. 14 Yet I will appoint them to keep charge of the house, of all its service and of all that shall be done in it.

and on the other hand:

15 "But the Levitical priests, the sons of Zadok, who kept charge of My sanctuary when the sons of Israel went astray from Me, shall come near to Me to minister to Me; and they shall stand before Me to offer Me the fat and the blood," declares the Lord God. 16 "They shall enter My sanctuary; they shall come near to My table to minister to Me and keep My charge.

Both good and bad Levitical Priests - who lived before when Israel went astray - which happened a long time ago - have differing jobs based on their works before.
NOW - with Jesus in His Sanctuary - as He said in Zechariah 8:3 that He would be in Jerusalem -
AND - in the context of the Millennium Temple and the sacrificial worship system designed for the Jews -
We find people who had lived before, living again in this future time when God is among them: Immanuel.

This does not violate Hebrews 9:27.
That rule is for this present age: we who have knowledge of Jesus have but one chance to get it right.
But in the Millennium, when Jesus is a present reality in this world: salvation cannot come by faith when He can be proved.

And so the rules for salvation change outside of the Church Age -
- which comes to end with the Rapture.

[WailingWall]

4 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Jesus indicates twice in the Gospels that our place will be in Heaven upon His Return.

Mt 13:24-31 "...but gather the wheat into my barn."

John 14:3 1 "Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

Yup. And where will He be when He recieves us to Himself? Not in heaven

 

[WailingWall]

4 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

 

 

Notice too, that the Great Multitude show up in Heaven out of the Great Tribulation from which the Elect, those who remain and are still alive for the Rapture, are gathered.

Yes i understand some of these new books that are written added the word "THE" before the great tribulation but the bible does not

Revelation 7:14 (KJV)
¹⁴ And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
 

No THE

 

[WailingWall]

4 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Five Times the Bible Presents Two Resurrections

Yup

EZEK.37 [9] Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the FOUR WINDS, O breath, and BREATHE UPON THESE SLAIN, THAT THEY MAY LIVE.[10] So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, AN EXCEEDING GREAT ARMY.[11] Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.[12] Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I WILL OPEN YOUR GRAVES, AND CAUSE YOU TO COME UP OUT OF YOUR GRAVES, AND BRING YOU INTO THE LAND OF ISRAEL

Which ones this one?  The 1st or 2nd?  Brings His people to Israel after resurrection

[WailingWall]

4 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

I've given you the Scripture you demanded of missmuffet, and so defended her - and there are TWO resurrections to Heaven.
(There is a third resurrection in Ezekiel, but that is for the Jews who lived before, to live again on this earth.)

Im not quite sure i understand you. A third resurrection???? Im speechless

[WailingWall]

3 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Ezekiel 37 is not said in the context of what happens on the Day of the Lord.  There is no indication for that.

There certainly is

Its all about the 4 winds

EZEK.37 [9] Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the FOUR WINDS, O breath, and BREATHE UPON THESE SLAIN, THAT THEY MAY LIVE.[10] So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, AN EXCEEDING GREAT ARMY.[11] Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.[12] Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I WILL OPEN YOUR GRAVES, AND CAUSE YOU TO COME UP OUT OF YOUR GRAVES, AND BRING YOU INTO THE LAND OF ISRAEL.[13] And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,[14] And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

PROPHECY OF THE FOUR WINDS!  The four winds that are prophesied will blow only once. Zeke 37 also speaks of a resurrection {1Cor.15?}. There are only 2 general resurrections left according to the new testament. One at the 1Cor.15 event {called the rapture by many} and one at the great white throne. And they are not fliting off to heaven as the Rapturist claim but are takin to Israel

MATT.24 [29] IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with a GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and they SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT FROM THE FOUR WINDS, from one end of heaven to the other.

PROPHECY OF THE FOUR WINDS! It happens right after the tribulation period. On the Day of the Lord. And when they are gathered {in the twinkling of an eye} they are brought into the land of Israel {Ezek.37v12}. The Rapturist claim we are flitting off to heaven at the 1Cor.15 event but you will not find that anywhere in scripture.

[WailingWall]

1 THES. 4 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 THES. 5 [1] But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. [2] For yourselves know perfectly that THE DAY OF THE LORD so cometh as a thief in the night. [3] For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then SUDDEN DESTRUCTION cometh upon them, as travail upon a WOMAN WITH CHILD; and they shall not escape.

Doesn’t [1Thes.5] explain to us that [1Thes.4] takes place on The Day of the Lord? There is no scriptural gap between the above scriptures. 1Thes.5 directly follows 1Thes.4 verse 18. There were no chapters and verses when 1Thes was written. It clearly says that the goins on of 1Thes.4 takes place on the Day of the Lord. The day of the Lord takes place after the tribulatuion.

Thes. scriptures---women with child—V.16 resurrection---sudden destruction—Day of the Lord

Isaiah26-----women with child----V.19 resurrection---punish earthlings-----Day of the Lord

ISAIAH 26 [17] Like as a WOMAN WITH CHILD, that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O Lord. [18] We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen. [19] THY DEAD MEN SHALL LIVE, TOGETHER WITH MY DEAD BODY SHALL THEY ARISE. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. [20] Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, UNTIL THE INDIGNATION BE OVERPAST. [21] For, behold, THE LORD COMETH OUT OF HIS PLACE TO PUNISH THE INHABITANTS OF THE EARTH FOR THEIR INIQUITY: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Yeah. Verses 20-21. Surely the Day of the Lord

[WailingWall]

Yo Mo

1 THES. 4 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye SORROW NOT, EVEN AS OTHERS which have no hope. [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with THE VOICE of the archangel, and with THE TRUMP OF GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them IN THE CLOUDS, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1THES.4 – voice – clouds – trump of God – sorrow not as others -

ZEPH. 1 –  voice – clouds – the trumpet – man shall cry bitterly -

ZEPH. 1 [14] The great DAY OF THE LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even THE VOICE of the day of the Lord: the mighty MAN SHALL CRY THERE BITTERLY. [15] That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a DAY OF CLOUDS and thick darkness, [16] A DAY OF THE TRUMPET and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. [17] And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the Lord: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

No doubt about it. Both scriptures are speaking of the same event. Both scriptures speak of what happens on the Day of the Lord.

The Day of the Lord takes place AFTER the tribulation period

Edited November 22, 2016 by WailingWall

[seeking the lost]

10 hours ago, inchrist said:

I can see your visualization of it....

But there is evidence of a resurrection and then rapture of the two witnesses. Technically speaking is the first evidence of a literal resurrection and rapture.

Out of interest the rest of the dead for the second resurrection who would make up this group?

 

In the case of the two witness they are raised to life and ascend.  John does not consider this a resurrection that counts.  It is his writing and account of what he saw and yet it is in Rev 20 that he says, "this is the first resurrection".  A rapture is when people who have not yet died go up in the air and are changed on the way up.  That does not happen with the two witnesses.  They are the only ones going up with others looking on.

The text indicates that the rest of the dead are all those who have died and not taken part in the first resurrection.  Rev. 20: 12-14 give us indication of those who are raised and what happens.

   

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.