Guest shiloh357 Posted September 3, 2017 Share Posted September 3, 2017 2 hours ago, BobRyan said: Isaiah 56:1-8 gentiles specifically blessed for keeping the Sabbath Isaiah 66:23 - Sabbath for "ALL MANKIND" -- "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Mark 2:27 "Sabbath made for MANKIND" Hebrews 4 "there REMAINS a Sabbath rest for the people of God" Acts 18:4 BOTH Jews AND Gentiles in the synagogues "every Sabbath" to hear Gospel preaching. Acts 15 'Moses is preached every Sabbath in the synagogues' - is the "solution" to the big problem in the NT church regarding gentiles and the Gospel Jeremiah 31:31-33 the NEW Covenant specifically for "The house of Israel and the house of Judah" None of that stipulates any commandment to the Church to keep the Sabbath day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted September 3, 2017 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 711 Content Per Day: 0.28 Reputation: 266 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/12/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted September 3, 2017 (edited) 7 hours ago, shiloh357 said: None of that stipulates any commandment to the Church to keep the Sabbath day. Yes it does -- unless you think Church members are not part of "mankind" or that Hebrews 4 is not written to Christians. But if one is looking for a "way out" certainly none of those texts say "do not take God's name in vain" and in fact that commandment can't be found quoted even in part - in all of the NT. Unlike the Sabbath Commandment which IS quoted in part in several places in the NT. And unlike week-day-1 we see "every Sabbath" they meet for Gospel preaching in Acts 18:4.... with not a single "meet every week-day-1 for Gospel preaching and worship" statement in all of scripture. The point remains. Edited September 3, 2017 by BobRyan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted September 3, 2017 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 711 Content Per Day: 0.28 Reputation: 266 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/12/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted September 3, 2017 (edited) 7 hours ago, shiloh357 said: Actually, we have records that predate the RCC going back to around 150 AD that the church was already meeting on Sundays and this from Jutin Martyr. The RCC didn't institute Sunday. And in the first century, they were meeting every day, not just on the Sabbath. 1. For a short while in Acts 2 they met "every day" it was feast of Pentecost...no need to do secular work during that feast. But it is not true that the avoided secular work all year long and just went to church. Acts 20 29 I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 And men will rise up from your own number with deviant doctrines to lure the disciples into following them. Since Sunday has no history in the New Testament, its advocates in modern times have labored strenuously to find some support for it in the earlier post-apostolic productions. As for Justin Martyr - he makes no reference to transfer of the Sabbath Commandment making Sunday the new Sabbath - the Christian Sabbath, the way the RCC has it. Edited September 3, 2017 by BobRyan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted September 3, 2017 Share Posted September 3, 2017 4 hours ago, BobRyan said: 1. For a short while in Acts 2 they met "every day" it was feast of Pentecost...no need to do secular work during that feast. But it is not true that the avoided secular work all year long and just went to church. I didn't say they avoided secular work, but they did meet every day. Quote As for Justin Martyr - he makes no reference to transfer of the Sabbath Commandment making Sunday the new Sabbath - the Christian Sabbath, the way the RCC has it. Doesn't matter. Sabbatarians often argue that the Church kept the Sabbath day and did not worship on Sunday until Constantine, which is demonstrably false from history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted September 3, 2017 Share Posted September 3, 2017 5 hours ago, BobRyan said: Yes it does -- unless you think Church members are not part of "mankind" or that Hebrews 4 is not written to Christians. The Sabbath is for man, The Sabbath day was for Israel. Hebrews 4 is about Christ as our Sabbath rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted September 4, 2017 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 711 Content Per Day: 0.28 Reputation: 266 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/12/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted September 4, 2017 (edited) 9 hours ago, shiloh357 said: The Sabbath is for man, The Sabbath day was for Israel. Hebrews 4 is about Christ as our Sabbath rest. The Sabbath is for mankind for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Isaiah 66:23. This is irrefutable. Gentiles are specifically blessed for keeping Sabbath in the OT - in Isaiah 56:1-8 for example. This is irrefutable. Christ said "Sabbath was made for mankind" in Mark 2:27 -- This is irrefutable. There is not one single text in all of scripture that says "Christ is our Sabbath". This is irrefutable. Edited September 4, 2017 by BobRyan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted September 4, 2017 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 711 Content Per Day: 0.28 Reputation: 266 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/12/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted September 4, 2017 (edited) 9 hours ago, shiloh357 said: I didn't say they avoided secular work, but they did meet every day. 21 hours ago, shiloh357 said: Actually, we have records that predate the RCC going back to around 150 AD that the church was already meeting on Sundays and this from Jutin Martyr. The RCC didn't institute Sunday. And in the first century, they were meeting every day, not just on the Sabbath. 1. For a short while in Acts 2 they met "every day" it was feast of Pentecost...no need to do secular work during that feast. But it is not true that they avoided secular work all year long and just went to church. Thus every day was NOT the Bible Sabbath in either the OT or the NT Acts 20 29 I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 And men will rise up from your own number with deviant doctrines to lure the disciples into following them. Since Sunday has no history in the New Testament, its advocates in modern times have labored strenuously to find some support for it in the earlier post-apostolic productions. As for Justin Martyr - he makes no reference to transfer of the Sabbath Commandment making Sunday the new Sabbath - the Christian Sabbath, the way the RCC has it. Quote Doesn't matter. Sabbatarians often argue that the Church kept the Sabbath day and did not worship on Sunday until Constantine, which is demonstrably false from history. It matters for Bible students. If you have a Bible text saying that "every week day 1 the NT church gathered for worship" then -- this many pages into this thread topic - it is long past time you quoted such a text. Until then.. the objective unbiased Bible student - will notice this -- ======================= Paul never claims the church met every week-day-1 for worship. Not ever. But the NT scripture DOES claim they met EVERY Sabbath in the synagogues to hear Gospel preaching... BOTH Jews AND Gentiles -- Acts 18:4. Bible details matter. " fail to find even ONE text saying: "from week day one to week-day one shall all mankind come before Me to worship" as we have in Is 66:23 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath. "Week-day one was made for mankind.. the Son of man is LORD of week day 1" as we have in Mark 2:27-28 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath "Remember week-day-1 to keep it holy" as we have in Ex 20:8 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath "week day 1 is the Holy day of the Lord" as we have in Isaiah 58:13 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath "the next week day 1 - nearly the entire town came together to hear Gospel preaching" as we have in Acts 13 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath. "they kept asking that the Gospel be presented to them again on the next week day 1" as we have in Acts 13 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath " 4 And he was reasoning in the synagogue every week day 1 and trying to persuade Jews and Greeks." as we have in Acts 18:4 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath "the first day is the Lord's day" as we have for the Bible Sabbath in Ex 20:10 and in Is 58:13. Recall that the "Sabbath" designation for the Bible 7th day Sabbath is often found in the NT. But not once do we find "Lord's day" for week-day-1 or "the new Christian Sabbath" as the term for week-day-1 in the NT. " fail to find even ONE text saying: "from week day one to week-day one shall all mankind come before Me to worship" as we have in Is 66:23 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath. "Week-day one was made for mankind.. the Son of man is LORD of week day 1" as we have in Mark 2:27-28 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath "Remember week-day-1 to keep it holy" as we have in Ex 20:8 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath "week day 1 is the Holy day of the Lord" as we have in Isaiah 58:13 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath "the next week day 1 - nearly the entire town came together to hear Gospel preaching" as we have in Acts 13 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath. "they kept asking that the Gospel be presented to them again on the next week day 1" as we have in Acts 13 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath " 4 And he was reasoning in the synagogue every week day 1 and trying to persuade Jews and Greeks." as we have in Acts 18:4 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath "the first day is the Lord's day" as we have for the Bible Sabbath in Ex 20:10 and in Is 58:13. Recall that the "Sabbath" designation for the Bible 7th day Sabbath is often found in the NT. But not once do we find "Lord's day" for week-day-1 or "the new Christian Sabbath" as the term for week-day-1 in the NT. Edited September 4, 2017 by BobRyan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 3 hours ago, BobRyan said: The Sabbath is for mankind for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Isaiah 66:23. This is irrefutable. Let's start by quoting the passage correctly. False teaching thrives on misquoting Scripture: And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. (Isa 66:23) All he is saying is that from month to month and week to week, all flesh will come to worship Him. Sabbath to sabbath is one week. New Moon to Moon is one month. So it is really just saying that there be a continuous, non-stop flow of worshipers coming to the temple during the Millennium. Quote Gentiles are specifically blessed for keeping Sabbath in the OT - in Isaiah 56:1-8 for example. This is irrefutable. Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed. Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil. Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree. For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; (Isa 56:1-6) That is talking about those who converted to the Jewish religion. It is not a commandment to all Gentiles for all time to observe the Sabbath day. Quote Christ said "Sabbath was made for mankind" in Mark 2:27 -- This is irrefutable. I am not refuting that. I am refuting your sloppy handling of Scripture. The Sabbath is for man. But the Sabbath day was commanded solely to Israel. There is no commandment to the Church to observe the Sabbath day. Quote There is not one single text in all of scripture that says "Christ is our Sabbath". This is irrefutable. The Sabbath day is a type of Christ. God worked for six days and ceased. Adam entered into God's rest. Jesus worked for six hours on the cross and now we enter into His rest. He is our rest. He promises us rest for souls. Jesus is the personification and the embodiment of the Sabbath. You can trust in your sin-stained observance of the Sabbath day. I will trust in the work of Jesus on the cross and I will rest in Him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 3 hours ago, BobRyan said: For a short while in Acts 2 they met "every day" it was feast of Pentecost...no need to do secular work during that feast. But it is not true that they avoided secular work all year long and just went to church. Thus every day was NOT the Bible Sabbath in either the OT or the NT They met daily with each other. No one said they avoided secular work. I have already answered that argument. They worked and they met every day together, after Pentecost. They didn't observe every day as the Sabbath, but they still met. No one said that the Bible Sabbath was every day. You are trying to refute what was never said. Quote It matters for Bible students. Which you are clearly not. Quote If you have a Bible text saying that "every week day 1 the NT church gathered for worship" then -- this many pages into this thread topic - it is long past time you quoted such a text. I didn't say that, so I don't' have to defend what I didn't say. Quote Until then.. the objective unbiased Bible student - will notice this -- Paul never claims the church met every week-day-1 for worship. Not ever. But the NT scripture DOES claim they met EVERY Sabbath in the synagogues to hear Gospel preaching... BOTH Jews AND Gentiles -- Acts 18:4. Yes, they did. But that is not a doctrine. They also met in homes, by that time, as well. When you look at the greetings Paul gives in end of His epistles, they are to households. The Church at Rome actually met in five different homes. And they probably met more often than we do. Sabbath isn't a day of worship, it is a day of rest. So, it is possible to meet for worship on a day that isn't the Sabbath because every day is a day of worship, but only day of the week was the Sabbath. Quote Bible details matter. " fail to find even ONE text saying: "from week day one to week-day one shall all mankind come before Me to worship" as we have in Is 66:23 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath. "Week-day one was made for mankind.. the Son of man is LORD of week day 1" as we have in Mark 2:27-28 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath "Remember week-day-1 to keep it holy" as we have in Ex 20:8 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath "week day 1 is the Holy day of the Lord" as we have in Isaiah 58:13 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath "the next week day 1 - nearly the entire town came together to hear Gospel preaching" as we have in Acts 13 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath. "they kept asking that the Gospel be presented to them again on the next week day 1" as we have in Acts 13 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath " 4 And he was reasoning in the synagogue every week day 1 and trying to persuade Jews and Greeks." as we have in Acts 18:4 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath "the first day is the Lord's day" as we have for the Bible Sabbath in Ex 20:10 and in Is 58:13. Recall that the "Sabbath" designation for the Bible 7th day Sabbath is often found in the NT. But not once do we find "Lord's day" for week-day-1 or "the new Christian Sabbath" as the term for week-day-1 in the NT. " fail to find even ONE text saying: "from week day one to week-day one shall all mankind come before Me to worship" as we have in Is 66:23 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath. "Week-day one was made for mankind.. the Son of man is LORD of week day 1" as we have in Mark 2:27-28 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath "Remember week-day-1 to keep it holy" as we have in Ex 20:8 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath "week day 1 is the Holy day of the Lord" as we have in Isaiah 58:13 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath "the next week day 1 - nearly the entire town came together to hear Gospel preaching" as we have in Acts 13 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath. "they kept asking that the Gospel be presented to them again on the next week day 1" as we have in Acts 13 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath " 4 And he was reasoning in the synagogue every week day 1 and trying to persuade Jews and Greeks." as we have in Acts 18:4 for the Bible 7th day Sabbath "the first day is the Lord's day" as we have for the Bible Sabbath in Ex 20:10 and in Is 58:13. Recall that the "Sabbath" designation for the Bible 7th day Sabbath is often found in the NT. But not once do we find "Lord's day" for week-day-1 or "the new Christian Sabbath" as the term for week-day-1 in the NT. Again, in none of that is there a commandment to the Church to keep the Sabbath. Simply citing historical occurrences of Sabbath keeping, doesn't constitute a doctrine of Sabbath observance. Within 25-30 years after the death of John, Christians were meeting on the first day of the week, like it or not. Constantine and the RCC had nothing to do with Christians meeting on the first day of week. It was already being done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted September 4, 2017 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 711 Content Per Day: 0.28 Reputation: 266 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/12/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted September 4, 2017 10 hours ago, BobRyan said: The Sabbath is for mankind for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Isaiah 66:23. NASB This is irrefutable. 7 hours ago, shiloh357 said: Let's start by quoting the passage correctly. False teaching thrives on misquoting Scripture: And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. (Isa 66:23) A distinction without a difference "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Isaiah 66:23. NASB TWO cycles of worship. One on the new moon in the New Earth... and one on the weekly Bible Sabbath. Isaiah never used the term "Sabbath" to mean amorphous "every week" rather than the actual Bible Sabbath... and we all know it. 7 hours ago, shiloh357 said: All he is saying is that from month to month and week to week, You have injected that into the text - when no amount of correct exegesis supports the New Moon and weekly Sabbath not being an appointed day. 7 hours ago, shiloh357 said: all flesh will come to worship Him. Sabbath to sabbath is one week. New Moon to Moon is one month. So it is really just saying that there be a continuous, non-stop flow of worshipers coming to the temple during the Millennium. Thus the flaw in the eisegesis you are attempting. No text in all of scripture OT or NT claims that "from Sabbath to Sabbath" means "daily". What is more "Daily" is ONE time reference. But the text has TWO cycles "from new moon to new moon" and ALSO "from Sabbath to Sabbath". Your tradition only allows you ONE and that one is "daily". The gap between your tradition and the actual text is very apparent at that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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