Jump to content

BobRyan

Senior Member
  • Posts

    711
  • Joined

  • Last visited

Reputation

266 Good

3 Followers

Recent Profile Visitors

The recent visitors block is disabled and is not being shown to other users.

  1. I don't know of any text that says the lost are "under grace" and "joined to Chris"
  2. It is God who informs us that "He came to His OWN and His own received Him not" John 1:11 It is God who informs us "O Jerusalem... how I Wanted to spare your children.. but you would not" Matt 23 It is God who informs us that Jesus wept over Jerusalem "IF only you had known the time of your visition..." Luke 19:42 , even though "The Time is fulfilled" was Jesus' message in Mark 1 at the start of his ministry. It is God who informs us of His own lament in Is 5:4 when things have gone terribly wrong "what more could I have done than that which I have already done". It is God who says in 2 Peter 3 "God is not WILLING for ANY to perish but for all to come to repentance"
  3. And every question that finds an answer is that much more understanding of the Word of God that one can have. John 14 "I am the way the Truth and the life" knowing more about the Truth is never a bad thing.
  4. We can all position it anyway we like to favor any particular POV. The details I have been pointing to - are the details in scripture itself - where it appears to only work one way. Not both ways. In the Bible we have "Jesus is God" in John 1:1 and we have "the Father is greater than I am" John 14:28. Some camp out on John 14:28 to reject the Trinity - but the only way for John 1:1 and John 14:28 to both be true is that the Trinity doctrine is true. By just looking at one slice of the info and taking an "either-or" approach ignoring that which does not favor a POV - almost anything can be had. But taking "all the points" together then one larger picture is seen.
  5. Regardless of the reason one is said to "fall from grace" and be "severed from Christ" - the point in respect to OSAS - is that instead of being impossible - that "severed from Christ" state is very much possible. One who was under Grace and joined to Christ - can then be "fallen from Grace" and "severed from Christ". Your argument would only work if you were claiming "OSAS is the case except for those saved saints joined to Christ, and under grace who at some point turn to their own works as their gospel and then at that point they lose their salvation". Somehow I get the impression that - that is not your point yet you post as if it is. I find that curious.
  6. The problem with that idea of retro-deleting present assurance if it turns out that ten years from today - you fall away -- is that you cannot actually have assurance until you see that ten years from today you do not fall away. The "forgiveness revoked" Matt 18 teaching of Christ applies because it is real. The "fallen from grace, severed from Christ" teaching of Paul Gal 5:1-4 applies because it is real. The warnings in Rom 2:4-7, Heb 3:6,14, and Matt 13 stony ground illustration of Christ apply - because the problem is real.
  7. John 10 is about "someone else" taking them away - it is not about them no longer having the free will to leave if they so choose. "He came to His OWN and His own received Him not" John 1:11 "what more could I have done than that which I have already done?" followed by why then this failed result? Isaiah 5:4 "the IF" you persevere statements in Hebrews 3:6,14 could not even exist if perseverance were "a given", or as in your post "not even required". Matt 18 ends with Christ's teaching on "forgiveness revoked". Romans 11 teaching on salvation revoked : "20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 See then the kindness and severity of God: to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; for otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again." Gal 5:1-4 - "you have been severed from Christ, fallen from grace"
  8. Christians follow the teaching of Christ. In Matt 28 the final commission is "9 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to follow all that I commanded you; and behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” The Gospel writers are teaching us what Christ commanded them... we are Christians. So yes - the teaching of Christ is very much priority one. Gal 1:6-9 there is only ONE Gospel Gal 3:8 - that Gospel was preached to Abraham Matt 17 - Moses and Elijah stand with Christ ... IN glory... BEFORE the Cross! Because Jesus is the Lamb of God slain from the foundations of the world in the sight of God who sees those things that are not as though they are. He is not limited by time and sequence. One Gospel in all of time... not one for Jews and another one for everyone else
  9. The argument that "the treasure is the masters" - is a focus on a detail in a parable where the parable is figurative. By pointing to that detail you are admiting that in literal teaching these details matter - however as they say in a parable "you cannot make a parable walk on all fours". So I agree it has a limit. But as in the case with all of Christ's parables the conclusion is literal. In Luke 16 the rich man and Lazarus - the conclusion is "if they do not listen to Moses they will not listen though one rises from the dead". In Matt 18 and the unforgiving servant - "so shall My Father do to each one of you if you do not forgive your brother" and the "so shall" is a reference to "forgiveness revoked". In the case of the unforgiving servant the conclusion is that the servant is cast into outer darkness - where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth as we see in Matt 13 Matthew 13:42 and they will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. I agree that all start out saved in His parable -- but I would point out that eschatology deals with salvation since it includes who ultimately goes to heaven and who goes to hell.
  10. In Jesus' teaching it was far worse than "the money had no value for you" - it is this... "28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. 29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
  11. I agree that many groups do not go along with what we find in 1 Cor 14 A. Notice that the text holds the reader responsible for content: 6 But now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you speaking in tongues, how will I benefit you unless I speak to you either by way of revelation, or of knowledge, or of prophecy, or of teaching?...9 So also you, unless you utter by the tongue speech that is clear, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air. 10 There are, perhaps, a great many kinds of languages in the world, and no kind is without meaning. 11 If then I do not know the meaning of the language, I will be to the one who speaks a barbarian, and the one who speaks will be a barbarian to me. 12 So also you, since you are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek to abound for the edification of the church. B. It is specifically a sign to unbelievers - to reach non-Christians. 22 So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe. C. notice that "the gift does not work" when the listener does not understand the meaning of the words spoken or if those words are not clear to the listener. 23 Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad? The abuse of the gift (in the example in vs 23 the abuse is everyone speaking at once or in the case of vs 11 speaking something that the unbeliever cannot understand ) results in the unbeliever not being reached at all.
  12. Yes - they mean what they say. It would be cruel to warn about something that is not possible. Like warning someone not to flap their arms so fast that they would fly into outer space and run out of oxygen. That sort of warning is no what scripture engages in.. not even a little. 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 See then the kindness and severity of God: to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; for otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again.Romans 11 makes it clear "you stand only by your faith" for the saved. Gal 5 speaks of those who have been "severed from Christ, fallen from Grace". Matt 13 warns of the stony ground that accepts the Gospel with great joy, springs to life and then later dies away. John 15 warns of "branches IN ME" -- in Christ - that do not produce fruit and then are cut off and cast into the fire.
  13. First of all - 1 Cor 14 "is Biblical". - the entire chapter. Secondly - in both Acts 2 and 1Cor 14 the supernatural gift of tongues - is always a known human language and the person speaking is always in charge of the content and the timing -- not the Holy Spirit. This gift is a sign to unbelievers not to believers. The Holy Spirit gives the gift - but does not specify content. By contrast in the case of the gift of prophecy spoken of in 1Cor 12 and also 1Cor 14 - the Holy Spirit is in charge of the content -- and this gift is not a sign to unbelievers.
  14. Where then is the difference on this topic in respect to the Bible scholarship in almost all major Christian denominations? Differences are in how that 4th commandment can or cannot be edited over time. So then these texts come up in that discussion - Is 66:23 for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship" Acts 18:4 "every Sabbath" gospel preaching to both Jews and gentiles Acts 13 - gentiles ask for more Gospel preaching "the next Sabbath" Acts 15 - the argument that within the Christian context "Moses is read every Sabbath" Acts 15:21 and this is key to solving the disputed within the Christian community of whether Gentiles had to become Jews to be saved.
  15. The Ark of the Covenant had in it - the Ten Commandments. And that included the command "do not take God's name in vain". Given the statement in the OP - that the earthly sanctuary was a shadow of the heavenly - one should argue that we no longer avoid taking God's name in vain since that was "just a shadow". I think we all see the problem with that logic. Eph 6:1-2 says the command "honor your father and mother" is the first commandment with a promise. That is only true in the context of "the unit of Ten". 1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" is another example of Paul affirming the Ten. James 2 "he who is guilty of breaking one of them - is guilty of breaking all of them" -- which included the Ten. The Ten (all Ten) are included in the "Law of God written on the heart and mind" under the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-34 which is quoted verbatim and unchanged in the New Testament in Heb 8:6-12 So that means that these examples given below would agree with the Saturday-Sabbath groups like Seventh-day Adventist, Seventh-day Baptists, Messianic Jews etc. The Baptist Confession of Faith - section 19 The Westminster Confession of Faith - Section 19 C.H. Spurgeon Martin Luther The Roman Catholic Church D.L. Moody Eastern Orthodox (many others) ============================================= What is interesting is that at this point all of the statements above are agreed to by Bible scholarship on BOTH sides of the Sabbath saturday/sunday debate in almost all major Christian denominations. In other words that is what they would term "the easy part" of the discussion where the Bible details are so obvious that both sides admit to them.
×
×
  • Create New...