The Abomination of Desolation

[Sister]

Quote

Next, we should discuss the scriptures on the two witnesses.

Revelation 11:

² But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

³ And I will give power unto my two witnesses,

Do you think when verse 3 begins it is now 42 months after verse 2?

What the measuring of the temple?  or the treading of the holy city?

Neither are 42 months after verse 2. 

The temple is measured first, before the storm hits,.....then the gentiles come in, starting with the King of the North.

 Jeremiah 6:1   O ye children of Benjamin, gather yourselves to flee out of the midst of Jerusalem, and blow the trumpet in Tekoa, and set up a sign of fire in Bethhaccerem: for evil appeareth out of the north, and great destruction.

  Jeremiah 6:22   Thus saith the LORD, Behold, a people cometh from the north country, and a great nation shall be raised from the sides of the earth.
 

 

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, Sister said:

iamlamad

I don't really want to be arguing back and forth, but I will answer your post to me out of respect to show you that I am considering all your points.

Revelation 10:7   But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

But you are claiming that the mystery of God is not finished?, and that there are 7 more angels to come?  I say the mystery is over as God is giving proof to the world now that it is he who lives, and he who judges and destroys, and he who saves.

The 70th week was finished a long time ago.  It has nothing to do with Revelations.  Israel were given back then 70 weeks to repent. The temple was rebuilt, their Messiah came, and was crucified, after that their temple destroyed as a punishment, and the city of Jerusalem left in ruins.  As a result desolation continues until the coming.

Desolate - spiritually dry, thirsty, without truth.
 

There are many "mysteries" recorded in the bible. Paul Himself recorded some. I can assure you, the rapture was no longer a mystery after Paul recorded it. And the rapture is not the mystery of the 7th trumpet. The mystery is of course finished, and the mystery is why here, at the 7th trumpet, at this time the Kingdoms are taken away from Satan and given to Jesus Christ.  Why at this time? Why was the kingdoms not transferred to Jesus Christ right after He rose from the dead - as we read in the gospels? That is the mystery that is finished at the 7th trumpet.

You say it was finished a long time ago. Sister, that is silly! If you say this, then you must have researched every trumpet judgment and found when each happened in history! Do you understand, NO ONE has ever been able to do that, for the simple reason, every trumpet judgment is future to us. There has never been a time when 1/3 of the seas have turned to blood! There has never been a time when 1/3 of the trees were burned up and all the grass. There has never been a time when 1/3 of the fresh water has turned to blood. And there certainly has never been a time when 1/3 of earth's population is killed. A huge crowd, too large to number, has never been seen around the throne in heaven, for that huge crowd has never been resurrected and has never received their resurrection bodies. And no one has EVER seen a worldwide earthquake that will take place as the rapture of the church takes place. You see, Sister, ALL THESE THINGS must take place before one day say in truth that the 7th trumpet has sounded. Sister, let's get the FIRST trumpet sounded first, before that! OK? Let's see a third part of the trees burned up and all the grass.

I hope you understand, the Holy Spirit and John numbered these things for sequencing, so people would not get the silly idea that they could happen in a different order. Sister, the 70th week is FUTURE because these things have never happened.  No preterist has EVER been able to find these events in history. Of course, you can try. But to just come out and say "it is finished" and offer no proof, no one will believe you. Yes, you have the freedom to believe what you will. But I wish to ask you: why not just believe Revelation AS WRITTEN? It makes perfect sense just as it is written, starting out as past tense (the letters to the 7 existing churches in Asia) then switches to things future to John back then, and then to things still future to us today.

By the way, the verb in verse 7, "should be finished" is a Greek Aorist type verb that shows no tense or no timing whatsoever. We have no such verb in the English language. In other words, we can't accurately translate it. So the translators usually use a past tense verb. However, there is simply no timing including in the Greek word. So from the Greek, we cannot know if it "was finished," "is finished," or "will be finished." The ONLY way we can determine such information is by the context: the first 6 trumpets: have they been seen in history? If we could point to when each of the first 6 happened, then perhaps we could guess the 7th has happened.

However, just one glimpse of our world today should tell you that the Kingdoms of our world still very much belong to Satan. Paul declared it so during the church age, or the age of grace in which we are still living. Nothing has changed to end the age of grace. Only the rapture of the church will end it, according to Paul.

 

By the way, sister, we are not arguing; we are discussing.

Edited February 9, 2017 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, Sister said:

What the measuring of the temple?  or the treading of the holy city?

Neither are 42 months after verse 2. 

The temple is measured first, before the storm hits,.....then the gentiles come in, starting with the King of the North.

 Jeremiah 6:1   O ye children of Benjamin, gather yourselves to flee out of the midst of Jerusalem, and blow the trumpet in Tekoa, and set up a sign of fire in Bethhaccerem: for evil appeareth out of the north, and great destruction.

  Jeremiah 6:22   Thus saith the LORD, Behold, a people cometh from the north country, and a great nation shall be raised from the sides of the earth.
 

 

In other words, in your mind, the 42 months is mentioned but is not completed in verse 2 where it is written? Do you understand you correctly?

 

By the way, Sister, these verse in Jeremiah are specifically about when Nebuchadnezzar would come and conquer Jerusalem.  They have nothing to do with the end times we live in. Finally, you found some verses that really are history. Congratulations!

Edited February 9, 2017 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

12 minutes ago, inchrist said:

Please read Rev 10:7 a little more carefully

But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.

Paul had to record it.

Paul wrote 1 Thes. around AD 50. Revelation  was probably written around AD 95. In fact, 1st Thes. letter was probably the first or almost the first part of the New Testament written down. Perhaps James was first, with this letter the second.  So Paul explained the mystery of the rapture of the church LONG before Revelation was written.  And after Paul wrote it, it was no longer a mystery.

You can read about the 7th trumpet until your eyes refuse to read any more, and you will not find anything like we read in 1 Thes. 15-17 [the rapture] written here at the 7th trumpet. It is simply NOT THERE. There is no "coming," and no "gathering" at the 7th trumpet. That theory is only myth and human reasoning. That is not the mystery in question here.

If this "mystery" was announced to the "prophets," should we look in the Old Testament to see what it really is? No, because if it is still a mystery here, apparently no prophet wrote it. It must have been announced to at least two of them, but none wrote it; else it would not be a mystery here.

Paul wrote that there would be "peace and safety" at the time of the rapture. Go back and look at the first 6 trumpets, and ask yourself if anyone would feel at peace then: after all, 1/3 of earth's population has just been wiped out. People are going to be scared out of their wits.

[iamlamad]

35 minutes ago, inchrist said:

Yes if John wishes to be consistent with Christ.

Matthew 24:29-30King James Version (KJV)

 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

The two witnesses falls within the cosmic signs period.

The great tribulation is seal 5...the length of time is 3.5 yrs

The 6th seal up until the 7th is 3.5 yrs - cosmic and earth period which includes the plagues of the two witnesses.

 

False the 70th week was completed at Christs baptism.

If rev 19 comes at the end of the 70the week...where is your final week of 7 years? Do you just erase it?

 

In Christ, I have not read anything you have written that I can agree with. The two witnesses show up right where John first mentions them, just a few days before the great event that will stop the daily sacrifices and divide the week into two equal parts: 1260 days before and 1260 days after.

God has given us the last half of the 70th week written down 7 TIMES! How many more will you need to understand it is FUTURE?  I have it under good authority that the 70th week is FUTURE. For any who would like to show otherwise, let them find any time in history that each of the 7 trumpet judgments have taken place. Then show as Jesus said, when the abomination took place and the fleeing into the wilderness as written in Revelation.

My point was that John gives five different mentions of a 3 1/2 year period of time, twice in days, twice in months, and once in years. No commentary I have ever read, no thread on any forum I have ever read, no sermon I have ever heard - no one has ever suggested that each of these periods of time is started and finished in the verse it is written in. If so, we would have over 17 years of time! But if we correctly understand, EACH of these five mentions of time are of events that will begin at the midpoint (or very close to the midpoint) and go to the end of the week.

How then can anyone imagine this is some period of time back in history? Is it written anywhere that Jesus fulfilled a 1260 day prophecy? Is it anywhere recorded that a 42 month period of time took place? Jesus told us HE would return after the days of great tribulation: has anyone SEEN Him? Where is His earthly Kingdom? When did He touch down on Mount Olivet?

It takes an incredible imagination to imagine these things are history. No one has ever shown us a time in history that the 7 trumpet judgments took place. And they never will, for they are future events.

So:

Fact: the 70th week is FUTURE

Fact: The two witnesses are FUTURE.

Fact: the first seal is History and ongoing: The church sent out with the Gospel to the nations of the world.

Fact: seals 2-4 are History and ongoing: the devil's attempts at stopping the advance of the Gospel.

Fact: the 5th seal is history and ongoing: the martyrs of the church age.

Fact: the 6th seal is FUTURE: being the start of Judgment and God's wrath.

Fact: "immediately after the tribulation of those days" is still future.

Fact: the plagues from the two witnesses cannot possibly happen until they show up on earth. That is FUTURE.

The time of the 5th seal: church age martyrs - is still ongoing after 2016 minus about 32 years.

From the 5th seal to the 6th seal? The time is not given. Any time suggested would be a guess.
From the 6h seal to the 7th? Still only a guess.  God does not tell us.

If rev 19 comes at the end of the 70the week...where is your final week of 7 years? Do you just erase it?

What kind of thinking could even ask such a question? John laid out the 70th week in Revelation exactly as it will come when it comes: it is still future. The 70th week is "clearly marked" with 7's: the 7th seal begins it, the 7th vial ends it, and the 7th trumpet marks the exact midpoint, with 1260 days to the end, which is in perfect agreement with what Daniel wrote.

Does chapter 19 come after 16? Of course it does. 

I thought you said the 70th week was completed at Christ's baptism: why then would you even ask about a future 7 years? Where do you get your "7 years?"

The great tribulation is seal 5...the length of time is 3.5 yrs

I have read a lot of myth on forums. This statement falls in that catagory. At seal five, John is still on the church age, the very age we are still living in!  Do you understand what will CAUSE the days of great tribulation that Jesus spoke of?  They will be caused by the Beast and False prophet erecting an image, then forcing people to bow down to it, or lose their head. Also by creating a mark, and forcing all to receive this mark or lose their head. This will cause GREAT PRESSURE (tribulation) because every human on earith will know that to accept the mark will mean DOOM in the lake of fire. Yet at the same time, no one can buy or sell WITHOUT the mark. If you understand John's chronology, there will be NO WATER for God will have turned all fresh water to blood. The ONLY fresh water will be found in stores where it will take the MARK to buy it. People who refuse the mark we be hunted down like animals.

So where are the days of Great Tribulation that Jesus spoke of found in Revelation? It is very simple: it MUST BE after chapter 14 for God is a very fair God and would NOT warn people not to take the mark after millions had already taken it. We finally see the beheaded people (from the days of GT Jesus spoke of) showing up in heaven in Rev. 15.

I have a novel idea: instead of rearranging Revelation to fit a theory, WHY NOT BUILD A THEORY on Revelation as written? It is already written exactly as these things will take place. Always remember:

AXIOM ON REVELATION:

Any theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong.

 

 

[iamlamad]

 

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

In Christ, I have not read anything you have written that I can agree with. The two witnesses show up right where John first mentions them, just a few days before the great event that will stop the daily sacrifices and divide the week into two equal parts: 1260 days before and 1260 days after.

inchrist wrote:

Well thats where you are wrong again, John sees them in the trumpets period. In fact alot of their plagues are very similar to the trumpet events....its no wonder the people rejoice when the prophets are killed.

You simply amaze me: where is 11:3 in the series of the trumpets? It is not between the 6th and 7th trumpets? Why are you disagreeable when we are in agreement here?  You have not read this very closely: they SHOW UP then. They BEGIN their testimony then. Then when? Just 3 1/2 days before the 7th trumpet sounds and marks the midpoint of the week.

If you wish to compare, what they do is just as much associated with the vials as with the trumpets.

What is most important is, the two witnesses are given 1260 days that is comparable to the 42 months of trampling, 1260 days of fleeing, and 42 months of authority. Each of these is for an event that will start near the midpoint and go through the end of the week.  Why then would you try and back up their testimony to fit the first half of the week?

 

[iamlamad]

inchrist wrote,

Nevertheless - you are in error for disconnecting the 70th week from the 69th week. 

Not at all. Daniel Himself, with the Holy Spirit, disconnected them.

Dan 9:

²⁶ And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

²⁷ And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:

 

You see? DANIEL separated them.

[iamlamad]

inchrist wrote,

The baptism of Christ ended the 69th week. Making the 70th week. Christ ministered for half that period and was cut off in the midst of that same week in the 70th week.

During christ ministry he was working for his bride.

When Christ was cut of in the midst of that week....that is the only place that allows a 2000 yrs gap.

The two witnesses will finish off the later half of Christs work for his bride 

Because based on ancient jewish tradition... The groom designates two close friends [2 witnesses] to assist him and to assist the bride before the Groom comes to collect his bride.

This is nothing but theory, that cannot be proven by scripture plus imagination.

Daniel mentions 69 weeks and then after that Christ is cut off. The 70th week is not connected with the first 69. The real gap is between Daniel's 69 and his 70. The proof is in Revelation: John shows us the last half of the week 5 different times. But he also shows us the trumpet judgments are in the first half.

Next, there is no verse that suggests Christ ministered for 1260 days. That is only imagination.

It is impossible to cut an apple in half and end up with two halves (1260) If you begin with only half the apple.

The abomination event that divides the week (the man of sin entering the temple) MUST HAVE a complete week to divide it in half.

YOU want to divide a half week and end up with a half. It is impossible. When John mentions the half weeks in months, days and years, it is also proof there was an entire 70th week before it was divided.

[iamlamad]

inchrist wrote,

 

Quote

 Any theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong.

Is this a joke? The only person who is rearranging things is you.

You take the two witness and move it backwards. 

Then take the seven bowls and stretch that out for 3.5 years, which completely is incompatible with the length of time from 7Th trumpet (Rosh Hashanah) to Yom Kippur (Rev 19, Zech 12 & 13) to be only ten days....and the real tragedy is you have no idea what im talking about, you lack complete understanding of Gods appointed times.

Are you so far from understanding that the truth appears as a joke?  No, it is no joke, it is truth.

I don't move the two witnesses: I take the very moment they start and take them 1260 days into the future from that point. The problem is, you don't understand when they START. It is not difficult: they START or BEGIN right when John mentions them. If you wish for them to begin at the first trumpet, or the second trumpet, you must rearrange what John has written. The truth is, they show up and begin their testimony after the 6th trumpet but just before the 7th.

Again, I don't move the seven vials. The truth is NO ONE KNOWS how late in the 2nd half of the week God will begin pouring them out. Some believe all 7 are poured out in one hour. We don't know when they begin or when they end. If you think you do, you are guessing.  How do you know that the 7th trumpet will come on Rosh Hashanah?  That is a HUGE guess. How do you know any of the trumpets are associated with any feast? YOu are guessing, and making it seem as if I don't know.

What if the 7th trumpet comes to mark the time in heaven that the man of sin will enter the temple on earth? Does that have to be on Rosh Hashanah?

Since the vials cannot come until the Image and mark are established, and since the image and mark will not be established until the False Prophet shows up, it is a HUGE stretch what you are saying. We DON'T KNOW how many days from the abomination event where the Beast is revealed, to the time the false prophet shows up! That could be months.  It may take more months for them to erect this image and create their mark.

I would really like to know what your imagination does with the rest of the last 1260 days, after the first ten. You have 1250 days left to fill with...what?

I suspect it will be months after the midpoint before the image and mark are ready, and in Revelation after chapter 14. The days of great tribulation that Jesus spoke of will BEGIN after chapter 14.

I know what you are talking about. But they are meaningless to our subject. Oh, you THINK they fit. If you wish to convince me, please show at least ONE SCRIPTURE that would tie the 7th trumpet to Rosh Hashanah.

Ah! Perhaps it is because you imagine the rapture is at the 7th trumpet? They you should prove that by scripture rightly divided.

Sorry, but so far you have shown NOTHING that really fits what John wrote.

[iamlamad]

inchrist wrote,

Then for some reason it doesnt sink in with you that the martyrs in seal five were killed for their testimony of Christ is linked to Rev 20:6 and Rev 15 and showing their ressurection. Which funny enough happend at the 7th trumpet, where Christ comes with his rewards fro his servants who revere His name where John sees them right before 7 bowls of wrath is unleashed.

So you can add that also to the grown list of the 7th trumpet

Let's look:

^{Rev. 6:9} And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

¹⁰ And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

¹¹ And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

 

^{Rev. 20:6} Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

We have martyrs of the church age. Let's look at one of the first:

Acts 7:

⁵⁸ And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.

⁵⁹ And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

⁶⁰ And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

The first few centuries saw a very many Christians martyred. Stephen was surely in that group under the altar. They have no idea how long it would be before John would judge their murders. So they ask. In the form John sees them, they are in spirit, for their dead bodies were buried on earth, or fed to lions. In other words, they have not been resurrected. From the days of Stephen, it will be perhaps 2000 years before he will be resurrected.

Therefore, the ONLY connection between them and your verse in Revelation is that they, just like ALL those who have died in christ, are awaiting the day of resurrection. They will CERTAINLY be a part of the first, or primary resurrection, for all the righteous will take part in that resurrection. Jesus was the first. We are waiting for the rest. A better verse to compare with would be 1 Thes. 4 where ALL those who died in Christ will rise.

Sorry, but Revelation 15 only shows the spirits of those beheaded showing up. NO resurrection in chapter 15.

How is it you see resurrection when no commentary does and when the text gives you hint of it?

How is it you see a coming at the 7th trumpet when there is not even a hint of it written?

The problem is, you THINK you know, when in fact, you don't. You don't even offer a plausible argument.