The Abomination of Desolation

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, inchrist said:

Can pre tribs show me anywhere prior to the 7th trumpet where Christ is said to be judging the dead?

I cannot. I don't think there is such a verse. But what is your point? What is written is written and will not change. We see the dead being judged in chapter 20.

[iamlamad]

16 hours ago, inchrist said:

You do realise Christ is the one who confirmed a covenant with many for 1 week?

If it is Christ that confirms it, the WEEK is still the same week laid out for us in Revelation. It seems you wish to ignore the week to force Revelation to fit your theory! I am reminded of a small boy hammering a square peg, trying to get it into a round whole.  It does not fit! Worse yet, you can't see that it won't fit: WHAM! WHAM! (goes and gets a bigger hammer) BLAM! No, inchrist, a square peg simply will not fit a round hole. You have to rearrange the hole to make it fit. Perhaps you could do that will a kids game, but you are not allowed to rearrange Revelation to fit your theory.

God has made it very clear: from the midpoint of the week (the 7th trumpet) to the end of the week, (the 7th vial) will be 3 1/2 years.  He wrote it 5 times and three different ways so no one would miss it! How amazing, some still miss it.

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

"Your first mistake is you dont seem to recognize a form of writing style called hebrew parallelism, which is the antithetical, in which the parallel members express the opposite sides of the same thought."

 

Style writing is not evident in Daniel 9:24-27

All of this is future after the 69th week and the Lord's cutting off

Each week is equal 7 years .... 483 years have transpired 

The balance of 7 years is still pending

He will confirm His covenant with many of Israel at the beginning of the 70th week and the balance as the tribulation continues

Thank you! Very good point on the balance of 7 years still pending!

 

 

 

[Sister]

10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

As I have said time and again, THERE IS NO COMING at the 7th trumpet. If you are teaching His coming at the 7th trumpet, you are teaching MYTH.  Why do people insist that the 7th trumpet is His coming, when His coming is so clearly shown at the 70th week has finished with the 7th vial and in chapter 19?

Read what does happen: Teach reality!

¹⁵ The seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven saying:  The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Messiah, and He will reign forever and ever!

 

iamlamad

God is warning all his children to come out of Babylon, or else they will share in the plagues that are coming on the world.

Revelation 18:4   And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
 

This is God's style.  Warn first, give all a chance to repent, then punish later to those who don't heed..  He does not punish first, then warn.  He is fair.

This is chapter 18...... his warning,....but the angels with the 7 trumpets have already given the plagues in Chapter 7?, and the angels with the vials have also come in chapter 16? 

You said that the order of events in Revelation are written in chronological order according to chapter numbers?  If that is true, then the people are punished first then warned afterwards? Doesn't make sense.

This is my point.  Divide the scriptures.

[Sister]

11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

As I have said time and again, THERE IS NO COMING at the 7th trumpet. If you are teaching His coming at the 7th trumpet, you are teaching MYTH.  Why do people insist that the 7th trumpet is His coming, when His coming is so clearly shown at the 70th week has finished with the 7th vial and in chapter 19?

Read what does happen: Teach reality!

¹⁵ The seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven saying:  The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Messiah, and He will reign forever and ever!

¹⁶ The 24 elders, who were seated before God on their thrones, fell face down and worshiped God, ¹⁷ saying:  We thank You, Lord God, the Almighty, who is and who was,because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign.

This is the mystery in question. This is what takes place at the 7th trumpet.  It is a change in ruler-ship. A moment before this trumpet, Satan was the god of the world, and a moment after this trumpet, Jesus Christ became the God of this world.

Did you notice what else takes place now that ruler-ship has changed? Michael goes after Satan to cast him down to the earth. He will no longer have command of the atmosphere around this planet.

Think about it. HOW did Satan become the god of this world?  When God created Adam, he gave Adam authority and dominion over this planet. But when Satan deceived Eve and when Adam ate of the forbidden fruit, Satan usurped Adam's lease on this planet. I am convinced the scroll in the Father's hand with the 7 seals is the lease document on earth.  Once someone was found worthy to break the seals and get this lease document opened, Satan's doom was assured. The Trumpet judgments could begin, and when the 7th will arrive, Satan will lose because the lease will end. Six thousand years of man's rule on the earth will have finished, and the 7th thousand years will begin and JESUS CHRIST will be the ruler! THANK GOD SOMEONE WAS FOUND WORTHY TO BREAK THE SEALS and start this process of destroying Satan's hold over this planet! HALLELUJAH!

This is opinion only, but I think the mystery in question is the mystery that the scroll or book was and is earth's lease document, and that man would rule the world for the first 6000 years (God took 6 days to create) and that God would rule the world for the 7th 1000 years. And finally, that at the 7th seal, Adam's lease will expire and the kingdom of earth will go to Jesus Christ.

iamlamad

It's hard to discuss this subject if we keep going all over the place.  So many different topics there.  You say the 7th angel is not the last one, I strongly disagree.  At the 7th angel, it is all done.  Christ has judged and done away with Babylon.  He has destroyed all the children who served Satan, but left some remnants of Israel and the gentiles.  Now all the surviving nations will be under Christ's dominion as he will send out all his laws and the world will know him, and God's will, will be clear now with no distortion.  The mystery is finished.  The world now know that they do have a God, and that his law will become the law of all the lands from now on.

Thank you for sharing your point of view.

Edited February 11, 2017 by Sister

[Sister]

On 08/02/2017 at 11:09 PM, Revelation Man said:

Instead of wasting this post, I will post what I think the Abomination of Desolation is, via my study of Daniel 9:27: 

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

1.) Confirm = gabar 1396 (Hebrew Word) meaning to be strong, to prevail or to act insolently.

2.) Oblation = minchah 4503 (Hebrew) A tribute or an offering

3.) Overspreading = kanaph 3671 (Hebrew) An edge, a Wing or Quarter (of a building) a pinnacle.

4.)Abominations = shiqquwts 8251 (Hebrew) Meaning, Disgusting, Filthy, Idolatrous or AN IDOL!!

5.)Desolate = shamem 8074 (Hebrew) Meaning to Stun, Grown Numb, to Stupefy, or to Devastate!

So looking at these original Hebrew word Translations, what is this verse (Daniel 9:27) really telling us ? Does it match up with other end time events ? Lets delve into it !! Basically this is what I get from verse 27.

Daniel 9:27 The Anti-Christ will FORCE an Agreement (Covenant means agreement) on Israel and others, probably the Muslims. He does so Insolently, his agenda Prevails, and he forces this deal on all parties. Then after 3 1/2 years he stops allowing the Oblation or Tribute, (I think to Jesus, who Israel accepts as their Messiah before the Day of the Lord as it says in Malachi 4:5-6) by Israel unto their God/Jesus, the False Prophet places an IDOL/IMAGE of the Beast in a Wing or a pinnacle of the TEMPLE and demands all people to worship this IDOL/IMAGE or else they must die. THIS STUNS/SHOCKS OR DEVASTATES Israel, then they heed Jesus' words, they Flee unto the Wilderness where they are protected by God for 1260 Days, because Elijah turned them back to the Messiah (Zechariah 12:10) before the Day of the Lord.

 

Daniel 9:27 shorter version........The Anti-Christ will force a Peace Deal on Israel, in the Middle of this deal he will renege on is deal, and order the False Prophet to place an Image of the Beast (IDOL) in the Temple, and demand all mankind to worship this Image. This Stuns Israel, or devastates them. Do further scriptures agree with this account ?

 

 

Hi Revelation Man

I didn't mean to leave you out of this conversation, but got bogged down with other things going no-where. 

I'm pretty sure we have had this conversation before?

 Daniel 9:27   And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

I see nothing about a peace deal here between the Antichrist and Israel.  The "he" that shall confirm the covenant with many for one week is "Christ", and not the FP or Antichrist as you call him.

 

......"he" shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,

Christ is the one doing away with all the animal sacrifices and oblations for once and for all.  He is the sacrifice now, and we go to God through "him", the ultimate sacrifice.  The old covenant is done away with now, and the New Covenant will stand.  Christ confirmed that new covenant during his preaching, but "he" was "cut off" in the middle of the week (crucified).  After he was "cut off", his apostles were sent to testify of him for 3 1/2 years, which finished that week.

Since then abominations have filled the whole earth as we see today. Not one specific abomination, but many.  These abominations will stop at his return, until the consumation when he is announced King before the whole world.  They will see his glory.

So this whole 70 week thing, with the final week being in the end times is all hog wash to me.  That doctrine given by the enemy to man is blocking many from the truth.  He has distorted the true meaning, and many have fallen into that trap.

I admit it's a hard prophecy, not an easy one, but for the love of God, it's talking about the old sacrifices that are no longer required because of what Christ did.

So please, if you are going to talk to me about end times, and the abomination of desolation, give other scriptures that specifically speak about it, and not Daniel 9.

 

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Sister said:

iamlamad

It's hard to discuss this subject if we keep going all over the place.  So many different topics there.  You say the 7th angel is not the last one, I strongly disagree.  At the 7th angel, it is all done.  Christ has judged and done away with Babylon.  He has destroyed all the children who served Satan, but left some remnants of Israel and the gentiles.  Now all the surviving nations will be under Christ's dominion as he will send out all his laws and the world will know him, and God's will, will be clear now with no distortion.  The mystery is finished.  The world now know that they do have a God, and that his law will become the law of all the lands from now on.

Thank you for sharing your point of view.

Maybe, since you disagree so much with John, you should write your OWN Revelation, putting it in the order you think things should be. For some reason, it goes right over your head that chapters 16-16 take place after the 7th trumpet and before any of these things you say happen.

 

Sorry, but I am going to believe John on these things. After all, he wrote what he saw, and God showed him the vision. The problem is, you have a preconceived idea of what this "mystery" is and so you disregard or throw out the rest of the book because of your preconceptions.  Sorry, I cannot do that. I form my conceptions from exactly what the book says.

Can you perhaps give us some scriptural REASON why you find the need to rearrange John's book?

 

By the way, I did not go "all over the place." I wrote of the real "mystery."  I guess your preconceived glasses were too think for you to even think of any other mystery.  I guess you might as well just tear out chapters 12-22 because in your mind, it is all done at the 7th trumpet.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Sister said:

iamlamad

God is warning all his children to come out of Babylon, or else they will share in the plagues that are coming on the world.

Revelation 18:4   And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
 

This is God's style.  Warn first, give all a chance to repent, then punish later to those who don't heed..  He does not punish first, then warn.  He is fair.

This is chapter 18...... his warning,....but the angels with the 7 trumpets have already given the plagues in Chapter 7?, and the angels with the vials have also come in chapter 16? 

You said that the order of events in Revelation are written in chronological order according to chapter numbers?  If that is true, then the people are punished first then warned afterwards? Doesn't make sense.

This is my point.  Divide the scriptures.

Do you see a warning in chapter 14 about taking the mark? What? Do you imagine the mark was set up in chapter 13 so the warning came after the mark was set up? NO WAY! Chapter 13 tells us what the Antichrist and False Prophet will do. But is is written a a parenthesis and does not show WHEN. We can determine that the mark and image is finally set up and enforced by beheadings because in chapter 15 we fill seen them showing up in heaven after they lost their head.  So God's warning about the mark was right on time. (this is just one example that His warnings come at the right time.)

Chapter 18 is speaking specifically of the city of Jerusalem. I know you don't believe it, but when you get to heaven you will find it is true. God is warning His people to get out of Jerusalem. His warning is in verse 4. But her destruction comes later in that chapter. But let's stop for a moment and think about this: Will people in Jerusalem during this terrible time be reading this book? Will they read and say to themselves, "we've got to get out of this city!" I can't answer that. God saw fit to write it, so people could read it. For sure people in Israel have read what Jesus said to do when they see the abomination, for we can see by 12:6 that when the abomination happens people flee. In fact, God has given people nearly 2000 years or warning!

You seem to imagine it is a warning for the trumpets and vials. No, it is a warning that the combined armies of many nations will descend on Jerusalem and burn it. The Beast will, of course, LEAVE the city then. Their goal will be to wipe Israel off the map.

⁸ Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

Think about it: can you see any possibility that His warning in verse 4 is about the verses after verse 4, such as the city being burned?

Once again then, I find your theories totally different from what is really written.  Can you at least IMAGINE Revelation is written in the right order and read it that way once? I have read it many times and I find NO CONFLICTS with the way it is written.

Edited February 11, 2017 by iamlamad

[Sister]

12 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Maybe, since you disagree so much with John, you should write your OWN Revelation, putting it in the order you think things should be. For some reason, it goes right over your head that chapters 16-16 take place after the 7th trumpet and before any of these things you say happen.

 

Sorry, but I am going to believe John on these things. After all, he wrote what he saw, and God showed him the vision. The problem is, you have a preconceived idea of what this "mystery" is and so you disregard or throw out the rest of the book because of your preconceptions.  Sorry, I cannot do that. I form my conceptions from exactly what the book says.

Can you perhaps give us some scriptural REASON why you find the need to rearrange John's book?

 

By the way, I did not go "all over the place." I wrote of the real "mystery."  I guess your preconceived glasses were too think for you to even think of any other mystery.  I guess you might as well just tear out chapters 12-22 because in your mind, it is all done at the 7th trumpet.

iamlamad

The topic I wanted to talk about here is the abomination of desolation.

I say that the abomination of desolation is near the end of the 3 1/2 trib, and not at the beginning, or in the middle.

As I stand now I see the abomination which makes desolate specifically taking place after the FP kills the two witnesses, then sits in that temple and "declares himself God".  Desolations and abominations have been continuing since Christ's death, but this very thing that he does is the final nail in the coffin for him, and his the kingdom of Babylon.  The third woe comes quickly, the coming.  Quickly means 45 days, as mentioned in Daniel.

From the daily sacrifice to the abomination which makes desolate shall be 1290 days.  WAIT until the 1335 day, I say, this is the resurrection of the saints.

Daniel 12:11   And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Daniel 12:12   Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Wait another 45 days after the abomination of desolation then Christ will come.  I believe Christ comes on the 7th trumpet, which is the same as the 7th vial.  The angel blows the trumpet, gives the warning, then pours out the vial.  I believe all the plagues are contained with the 7 angels.

Now I did state that I could be wrong.  IF that temple is built before the King of the North comes into Israel, then that could be the Abomination of desolation - them building a third temple that God did not instruct them to do.

Now we know that Babylon in the past destroyed Jerusalem, but Babylon is not North of Jerusalem, but east.  When God mentioned in Jeremiah 25 the name of King Neb, he was showing us that he was addressing the KING OF BABYLON....not necessarily King Neb himself, but the real King of Babylon he was speaking to is Satan, that real King of Babylon today.  The same will happen and that chapter was speaking of the last days.

You don't agree, so be it, but this is open to discussion.  If you want to speak about other scriptures and topics, start a new post.  Simple.  I will join you there.

 

[iamlamad]

17 minutes ago, Sister said:

iamlamad

The topic I wanted to talk about here is the abomination of desolation.

I say that the abomination of desolation is near the end of the 3 1/2 trib, and not at the beginning, or in the middle.

As I stand now I see the abomination which makes desolate specifically taking place after the FP kills the two witnesses, then sits in that temple and "declares himself God".  Desolations and abominations have been continuing since Christ's death, but this very thing that he does is the final nail in the coffin for him, and his the kingdom of Babylon.  The third woe comes quickly, the coming.  Quickly means 45 days, as mentioned in Daniel.

From the daily sacrifice to the abomination which makes desolate shall be 1290 days.  WAIT until the 1335 day, I say, this is the resurrection of the saints.

Daniel 12:11   And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Daniel 12:12   Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Wait another 45 days after the abomination of desolation then Christ will come.  I believe Christ comes on the 7th trumpet, which is the same as the 7th vial.  The angel blows the trumpet, gives the warning, then pours out the vial.  I believe all the plagues are contained with the 7 angels.

Now I did state that I could be wrong.  IF that temple is built before the King of the North comes into Israel, then that could be the Abomination of desolation - them building a third temple that God did not instruct them to do.

Now we know that Babylon in the past destroyed Jerusalem, but Babylon is not North of Jerusalem, but east.  When God mentioned in Jeremiah 25 the name of King Neb, he was showing us that he was addressing the KING OF BABYLON....not necessarily King Neb himself, but the real King of Babylon he was speaking to is Satan, that real King of Babylon today.  The same will happen and that chapter was speaking of the last days.

You don't agree, so be it, but this is open to discussion.  If you want to speak about other scriptures and topics, start a new post.  Simple.  I will join you there.

 

Again, you form your doctrine without consulting what is written! Where can we find when the abomination will come, in relation to the 70th week?

Of course, we find that in Daniel. But I already see a problem, because you don't believe Daniel when he tells us it is a WEEK (7)

Well, I will show you anyway:

9:27 NIV

In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him

WHEN? When does Daniel tell us? Did he say the end of 3 1/2 years? No, Daniel is clear, the abomination comes IN THE MIDDLE of the seven.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
He will make a firm covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering. And the abomination of desolation will be on a wing of the temple until the decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator."

Do you get it now? The man of sin will enter the holy of holies in the new temple and declare he is GOD. This is an abomination! The daily sacrifices will cease at this moment.  And this happens in the MIDST of the week. The Hebrew word there for MIDST means to divide in half.

Now I know your preconceptions are very strong. Did I break through? Do you believe what Daniel wrote?