Do all Babies go to heaven? YES

[Your closest friendnt]

35 minutes ago, AFlameOfFire said:

And that part too has alot to do with God sparing a particular place if it had over a certain number of righteous, unless it fell under a certain number righteous .

For example, Abraham asked the LORD, if there was a certain amount of people"within the city, for example Sodom, and he asks (Genesis 18:24) wilt Thou also destroy and not spare the place" ? And The LORD said he would spare the place if as many as fifty righteous abide there. Then ofcourse,  Abraham keeps asking, and ends up wittling those numbers all the way down to "ten righteouess" when  he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake. Gen 18:32

So LORD would not destroyed the place with everyone in it for just "10 righteous" in any given place. And as with Noah, where there were just 8 souls, as with Lot there was just him and his family (which were half the souls than Noah had) and so in both places they were delivered whereas the rest were destroyed. The number of righteous in a place would spare the place and all the rest of them from being destroyed.

Noah and his family being saved out of that place was two below  that "tens sake" being "eight in all". And Lot's family (although not by water, but in his time, by faire) had even less souls with him, even half of Noah's.

Shows between them as things progress the less souls are being shown escaping between the pictures of water and fire.

 

With Sodom God knew how many righteous people were there while he was having this conversation with Abraham. When Abraham said if there were 50 God knew that they were not fifty and he also knew that they were not ten. He knew about the family of Lot his wife, his daughters and the fiancee of his daughters who refused to follow them. 

Edited September 30, 2023 by Your closest friendnt

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

16 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

With Sodom God knew how many righteous people were there while he was having this conversation with Abraham. When Abraham said if there were 50 God knew that they were not fifty and he also knew that they were not ten. He knew about the family of Lot his wife, his daughters and the fiancee of his daughters who refused to follow them. 

God knows all things we all know this, his word reveals things to us.

[LaMonte]

11 hours ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

Yes, scripture very strongly says ALL babies and children go to Heaven if they die before a certain age of accountability.

If this is true, when a child reaches the age of accountability he become unsaved or lost. Then he has to make a choice to be resaved again.

They were all lost, none of them have any hope of salvation only judgment. Just like in 2 Peter chapter 3 the world will be destroyed by fire not water this time, and all those who are living on the Earth at that time will be destroyed by fire and then they will all be at the great white throne judgment in revelation chapter 20 and sent to Hell.

[Never Alone]

I have enjoyed meeting and knowing Catholic people who do show outwardly that they are filed with  joy  and  happiness, also I made friends with wonderful Catholics and along the way they shared their faith in friendly conversations and discussions.

I learned many years ago that one of the important things that many Catholics believe is that Mary was born without sin as  if she was conceived without an earthly father.

Over the years this seemed more and more confusing to me when I read from the scriptures.

We know that  the  Eternal  Spirit,  Holy  of  God  the  creator  and  father  has  no  flesh neither is it possible for his holy spirit to have sinful nature or be tempted or commit sin. Angels whom are evil spirits they do commit sin and disobey God    -    

but when we get to Jesus, does not the scriptures teach that Jesus did have the fleshly nature of sinful man and that Jesus was capable of committing sin but was without sin and was perfect in all his ways  ?

we see that Jesus Christ was conceived by of the Spirit, Holy  of  God  but he was also conceived in the flesh of man -  of the seed of man.

  Roman Catholic ideology teaches the doctrine that being born without a physical earthly father somehow makes someone created without sinful fleshly nature

but both Adam and Eve were born without the sex act, born without a human father nor even an earthly mother  -   yet this  Immaculate   Creation  of  Adam and Eve  -   this did not help them or prevent them from committing sin. This did nothing for them even though they were not born nor created from a sexual act.  Adam and Eve even lived at a time where purity was at its most powerful and potent form and they both existed as the very best potential and perfect example possible, purity was at the strongest and most powerful and purest form that has ever existed for human kind 

And still their decision and temptation and weakness to commit immoral acts, to sin, to defile their bodies and disobey God’s commandment was not prevented  

 

But when we read the sacred scriptures we see that   -  Heb 4:15  …  For we have   NOT   an  high  priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are,  yet  without  sin.

What was the natural physical  nature of the flesh of Jesus    ?   - was he not created or made  of  the  seed  of  David  according  to   the   flesh..  Jesus was created in the flesh to be tempted in all points, to be enticed and “ attracted  “  to tempting situations involving sinful nature

Was not Jesus made, conceived in the  likeness of  his mother, Mary  

… …  as  reproduction  of  sinful  flesh,  in  the  likeness of  sinful  flesh     -  in  the  likeness of  Mary   

2co  5:   21     for he hath   MADE  HIM  TO  BE  SIN   for  us,   who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

if  Jesus  was  sent  to  the  world  to  be   fashioned,  created  and made  in the image  and  similarity  and  likeness  of  sinful  flesh being  born  of  the seed of  sinful man -    ,,    for  sake  of  our  sin  he  was  made     -  he  died   unto   sin
God sent his own son -    in  the  likeness of  sinful  flesh,  and  for  sin,

We see that scriptures say that Jesus was  made  / created   inside  Mary  as  the  seed   DNA  and genetic hereditary of  her ancestors  going back to king David

Heb 9:13  ............  the blood of Christ,  who  through  the  eternal  spirit  offered himself  without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God 

Jesus did not offer himself through his  very  own   ""   bodily nature  ""   unto God  -   but,  through  the  eternal  spirit  in  him   -  he offered himself ……

Act 2:30    God had sworn with an oath to him, that  of  the  fruit  of  his  loins,  according  to  the  flesh,   he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

Jesus explains,     I must submit and give up my own desires my own nature and  my fleshly temptations I must deny.  i cannot do anything, whatsoever - of my own,     -    saying that it is the father only, that does the miracles and the works. saying - why do you call me " good " ? -        - "   there is  no  one  good   but God alone "

Joh 5:30    i can of mine own self do nothing:   as i hear,  i judge:   and my judgment is just; because  i   seek     not  mine  own  will,   but the will of the father which hath sent me. 

   i  am  not  relying  upon  the  power  of  my  own  qualities  passed  down  from  my  mother  -   !   

not relying upon the status of being born or created   -    without an earthly father,   i have no power  but to  deny my  own  personal  will  and  submit to the will of the spirit of God.

 Does the Bible teach that Jesus could never be justified in the flesh  alone: -  

  but  only  through  the  eternal  spirit  -   he was offered as a      “    perfect  “    holy sacrifice  without spot to God, only  through  the  eternal and  not  by  his  flesh  and  blood  and  his own will which was made in the likeness of sinful flesh

Joh 6:63  it is the spirit that quickeneth;    -     the  flesh  profiteth  nothing:        -    the words that i speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

If Jesus was made in the likeness of sinful flesh    In scriptures   -     he was tempted in the flesh, he had weakness, infirmities,  trials, he had to  discover  and  LEARN   obedience,  Jesus had to be taught to  obey  God and had to be trained and submit himself,  deny his own will and surrender his own will  - 

Jesus existed bodily in the form  of  sinful  flesh of  man,   -   passed down from his earthly father  David  and  Mother  Mary.

Heb 5:   explains
:1        For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:

 :2      Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.

 :3      And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins.
 :4      And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.

 :5     So,,   also,  Christ    glorified    NOT    himself   -   to  be  made  an high priest;       - -      meaning    =       {  in  bodily form  )

 Christ    glorified    NOT    himself   -   to  be  made  an high priest

The scriptures clearly make this point    -  Rom 1:3  … …  his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was  made  of  the  seed  of  David  according  to   the   flesh..

Rom 8:3  For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son -    IN  THE  LIKENESS OF  SINFUL  FLESH,  AND  FOR  SIN,  -  condemned sin in the flesh:

God  sent his own Son -   IN  THE  LIKENESS  OF  SINFUL  FLESH  -   in  the  likeness of  Mary   … …    reproduction  of  sinful  flesh,    Jesus  was  sent  to  the  world  for the  VERY,  VERY  PURPOSE  to  be   fashioned,  created  and made  in the image  and  similarity  and  likeness  of  sinful  flesh   the seed of  sinful man -    ,,    for  sake  of  our  sin  he  was  made     -  he  died   unto   sin

NOT   TAKING  AUTHORITY  TO  BE  EQUALLY  GOD.      BUT  HIMSELF,    EMPTY / VOID    MORPH  OF  A  SERVANT,  RECEIVING  IN  THE  LIKENESS  OF  MANKIND,  HE BECAME.

Rom 1:3  … …  his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh 

Joh 7:42   Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David
2Ti 2:8  …Jesus Christ of the seed of David .

Is this not the total and complete opposite of what Catholicism teaches about both Jesus and his mother    ?

Can any Catholic please clarify this  ?   why the scriptures clearly repeat the message that   -     Jesus  was  sent  to  the  world  for the  VERY,  VERY  PURPOSE  to  be   fashioned,  created  and made  in the image  and  similarity  and  likeness  of  sinful  flesh,  with temptation and weakness  of the flesh born as the seed of  sinful man and that by  being  born  of  Mary this  is exactly how and why this  VERY  PURPOSE WAS ACOMPLISHED ?

God  sent his own Son -   IN  THE  LIKENESS  OF  SINFUL  FLESH  -   in  the  likeness of  Mary,  by being conceived in Mary with temptation and weakness in the likeness of sinful flesh born unto sin and condemnation 

Jesus did not offer himself through his  very  own   "" bodily nature  ""  unto God -  but, through the eternal spirit  that was his very own spirit did he      -    offered himself …… .   ?

 

would not his flesh and blood been of no value and meaningless unless it was offered through the eternal spirit that was his very own spirit of the eternal  ?

Joh 6:63  it is the spirit that quickeneth;    -     the  flesh  profiteth  nothing:        -    the words that i speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

 

was it not a battle for Jesus to fight, resist and deny his sinful flesh, impulses and temptation, and submit his sinful flesh to obey the spirit within him   ?

Edited October 1, 2023 by Never Alone

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

On 9/30/2023 at 12:39 PM, Jaydub said:

 I dis agree with this statement. it is NOT because they are innocent as even children are born sinful.

If that statement is true. Jesus was born guilty, born in sin. We are born with a sin nature not with the guilt of sin. 

 

Your forgetting the Virgin Birth. That is what exempted him from being born with a sinful nature. 

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

On 9/30/2023 at 12:51 PM, Your closest friendnt said:

If you feel comfortable with that and that's how you want to keep it, and you do not want to bring up scripture to support your HOWEVER...Where the HOWEVER is in the scriptures...some Scripture for discussion...what else are we supposed to discuss, but scripture...

 

Sorry, I guess I assumed everyone read the bible like I do. 

Well, there is not scripture specifically that addresses this issue either way, BUT we know how God feels about children. Consider David who KNEW he would see his dead baby again. How did he know? Because he KNEW his baby was in Heaven. 

 

Also, Jesus compared having "faith" like a child's and "becoming" like a child to get into Heaven. 

Finally, sending a child to Hell would definitely go against a loving God who doesn't want any to perish. 

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

On 9/30/2023 at 1:03 PM, Your closest friendnt said:

There is uncertainty in your post...the time came when the world was divided with Abraham....and we have the world before Abraham, and the world with Abraham and the Circumcision and later with the Law of God. We had the children of God in Abraham without the Law of God and later we have the children of God with the Law of God and then we have the world with the reign of Jesus Christ. 

Your comments must show the time period...that can fit into it. 

Like Adam and his children...

God fellowship with them in the same way he fellowship with Adam before his disobedience. Even though all were under the effects of Adam's disobedience. 

And the fellowship between God and Cain ended the time Cain sin and while he still lived, but his fellowship with Abel ended when Abel died...and Abel died as a righteous man. Did he not?

I'm uncertain exactly what your question is. Abraham and The Law and Circumcision have nothing to do with God's grace and who he forgives. Also, I don't know what you mean by time period. There was sin before the Law and Moses and Abraham. Please clarify your question.

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

17 hours ago, LaMonte said:

If this is true, when a child reaches the age of accountability he become unsaved or lost. Then he has to make a choice to be resaved again.

They were all lost, none of them have any hope of salvation only judgment. Just like in 2 Peter chapter 3 the world will be destroyed by fire not water this time, and all those who are living on the Earth at that time will be destroyed by fire and then they will all be at the great white throne judgment in revelation chapter 20 and sent to Hell.

Yes, all people are born lost. Babies are also born lost, BUT God CHOOSES to extend salvation to anyone who can't yet comprehend the gospel message. That means this grace would also automatically cover adults with diminished mental capacities who can't understand the gospel.

[Jaydub]

1 hour ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

Your forgetting the Virgin Birth. That is what exempted him from being born with a sinful nature.

I used to think that, but scripture says Jesus was tempted in everyway we are

Hebrews 4:15

For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin.

if Jesus was tempted as we are, then he was born with the same nature as us otherwise how could he be tempted as we are?

 

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

21 minutes ago, Jaydub said:

I used to think that, but scripture says Jesus was tempted in everyway we are

Hebrews 4:15

For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin.

if Jesus was tempted as we are, then he was born with the same nature as us otherwise how could he be tempted as we are?

 

I understand where your coming from, BUT Jesus was born sinless. We know this. That is why the virgin birth is so important. That was the ONLY reason for the virgin birth.

Yes, he WAS tempted, HOWEVER, he did not have a sinful nature like we do. His temptations were not quite the same as ours. We know what it's like to fall into sin and be racked with guilt over sin. Jesus doesn't. Jesus NEVER sinned, because he is God and incapable of sin. We are not God and cannot stop sinning.