Jaydub

The whole chapter is full of symbolisms, we have in the first paragraph of chapter 13 a beast with seven heads and ten horns with 10 crowns on the horns, but instead of going through all the symbolism in this chapter, lets just look at the mark. Verse 17 tells us. no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of the beast. Is the beast literal or symbolic? Are people going to have his name tattooed to their right hand or their forehead? or the number 666? So, you see the mark is symbolic, unless you think people are going to walk around with the number 666 on their forehead. look at Revelation 22, verse 4 They will see his face and his name will be on their foreheads. This is talking about God almighty, we will have his name, Look at the contrast, Gods people have his name written on their forehead and the beast has the rest. You belong to Gods kingdom or the enemies There is only one unpardonable sin, yet we see the mark of the beast is unpardonable, unless its the same sin, rejection of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins. You either belong to God and have his mark or you belong to the enemy and have the mark of the beast

I believe it is an end time event, notice that the statue still stands after Babylon falls, the gold head is still left on and after the Medes fall to the Greece the silver shoulders are still in place and when Greece falls the bronze waist still remains and the last Roman empire the legs of Iron are still there. even though all these empires no longer have there power the statue still stands. Its not until Christ returns does this statue fall. Why? what does this statue symbolize? In my opinion this statue represents Babylon, spiritual Babylon When the statue is struck at the feet I believe it symbolizes the destruction of kingdoms that rule over the nations, when the feet are crushed the statue falls, it can't stand with crushed feet. Then Babylon is destroyed when the statue is broken to pieces. It is interesting to note in revelation 18 verse 21 a mighty angel picks up a large bolder the size of a large mill stone and throws it into the sea and it is said in with such violence the great city Babylon will be thrown down. Egypt, Sodom Rome are all types of Babylon. I don't believe the verses are pointing to pagan Rome, but to Babylon

I agree, the abomination that causes desolation is not an act done by gentiles. The abomination that causes desolations was done by the Jews because of their sins and worship of false gods The first abomination that caused desolation was not because of Antiochus Ezekiel tells us in chapter 8 that there was all kinds of Idols inside the temple and these Idols were being worshiped in temple. In chapter 10 we see the Glory of God leaving the temple, because of the sins of Israel, because of their abominations, their worship of Idols in the temple God allowed their destruction. The destruction is not the abdominal act, It is the sins of Israel that was the abomination, which cause their desolation Again at the cross at the crucifixion, the Jews kill their Lord, their messiah their creator. They totally reject Gods greatest gift and kill their King, this is the abomination that causes desolation. Again Gods spirit leaves the temple and the curtain of the temple was torn in two. Again its not the Romans who commit the abominations but, it is the Jews. The crucifixion of their messiah was the abomination that caused their desolation If there is another abomination that causes desolation it will be because of the Jews, it is not an act done to them, but it is an act they do against their God, which causes their destruction, I would guess if they ever build a temple and start sacrificing animals for the forgiveness of sins, it will be the start of their destruction, which will bring in the second coming

4 They are “the two olive trees” and the two lampstands, and “they stand before the Lord of the earth. They are called the two lampstands, we are told right here in Revelation revelation 1 that the the 7 churches are the 7 lampstands Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels[e] of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches. These lampstands in revelation 1 are groups of people who worship the true God. Theses 7 groups of people, who love the Lord are called the 7 lampstands. In revelation 1 we have 7 congregations 7 groups of people. In revelation 2 and 3, we have the congregations or groups of people or churches delt with one group at a time. One lampstand at a time is delt with or one group at a time, so we can know in Revelation 11 that the two lampstands are two groups of people. We are also told that they are the two olive trees, which stand before the Lord, so now we have an Idea of who these two groups are. Jewish believers and gentile believers. Two groups of people who love the true God This is why I would believe these two are not two men

The 7th day is different from the other six, this day had no evening and no morning. This day is eternal and it is holy and our eternal rest. Was this day created for the Lord? Did he need rest? No this eternal day was created for man and the weekly Sabbath points to this day. The cross effects this, because it is through the cross and our believe in Jesus that we can enter into our eternal rest, as we see in Hebrews 4 8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. 10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His. When we enter into this rest, through our savior, we then enter into his our eternal rest, the 7th day created for man Take away is the wrong word, fulfilled is the right word, I believe they were fulfilled. all 613 laws including the 10 were fulfilled in Christ. All the eternal laws were fulfilled, Passover, The day of atonement, circumcision, keeping the lampstand lite in the temple and other temple laws that were eternal laws, which are now fulfilled in Christ. He also fulfilled the Sabbath day, by being our Sabbath rest, our eternal rest. The rest day that God created, that Jesus created, was an eternal rest. Our eternal rest is in Jesus. The weekly Sabbath was a shadow of things to come. Jesus our rest our Sabbath It would be called the new Covenant and you mentioned in another thread, that it is the same as the old, but I disagree. These laws are written on our heart. No longer shall each one teach his neighbor. You have to teach someone the 10 commandments Charley for someone to follow them. We are not to hate, we are told not to lust, we are told to turn the other cheek. all of the law hangs on two commandments, love God and love your neighbor. yes and we keep them, when we love our neighbor and our God yes, I believe I explained that above. Yes the weekly Sabbath was a type and a shadow that was fulfilled when we put our faith in Christ. Adams sin cause man to work by the sweat of his brow for food, through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life. Because of sin we needed a Sabbath rest. Through Christ we are free from sin and rest in him scripture also tells us that it is a shadow Colossians 2 16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. religious festivals....annual Sabbath, new moon celebration....monthly Sabbath. Sabbath day...weekly Sabbath Before the cross man needed the weekly Sabbath, because of his sin, Christ freed us from that sin Because it points to Christ, he is our Sabbath Jesus kept all of the law Not do away with, fulfilled. Like Passover, like circumcision, like the day of Atonement, these are eternal laws fulfilled not done away with. You did not write this post to me, but I hope my answers shed some light as to why

I believed this too for a while, but then I thought it couldn't be because of the seed of the women in Genesis Genesis 3 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel., Now that I think about it, it may be symbolic because the verse is not referring to Satan's physical seed, so why would it be referring to her physical seed. It also would make him more like Adam 1. No mother or father Hebrews 7 Melchizedek means “king of righteousness”; then also, “king of Salem” means “king of peace.” 3 Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, resembling the Son of God, he remains a priest forever.

If we could just continue in our talk. I would like to ask you a question about a scripture on the subject, more or less. REV 20:4-5 4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection I can't read these verses and conclude that the mark must be literal I saw the thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to Judge I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God Are these not all believers? aren't these verse referring to all the believers in heaven ? If so, Then it must be symbolic, because there was no physical mark, but if it was symbolic then it would make sense. If it is only speaking about tribulation saints how is it the rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1000 years had ended. In other words, if it is only tribulation saints, then where are the other saints reigning with Christ I am having trouble putting my thoughts down, but I hope you understand what I am trying to say here, maybe you can help me through this. Am I looking at it the wrong way?

Thanks, Just to make sure I understand where you are coming from, You are not sure if these verses are to be taken literally or symbolical, if that is so, does that pertain to all the verses?

It is my belief that we are all marked, that we are all marked with either the mark of the Lord or the mark of the beast, as we pointed out above the mark on the right hand and forehead symbolizes our thoughts and actions. Those receiving the mark of the beast are sinners doing and thinking sinful things, those with the mark of the lord they will stay pure holy and righteous. Staying with that line of thought, sinners buy and sell sin, prostitution. Men and women buy and sell their bodies. Drugs are bought and sold. Alcohol, pornography, bribery. Money is the root to all evil, if you have enough money you can buy any evil desire you wish. How about the phrase he sold his soul to the devil If you don't have the mark of the beast, you can't buy sin, we can't sell sin, we are no longer slaves to sin. We despise sin in our lives, but even with Gods mark we can't buy or sell, because you can't buy righteousness. we can't buy purity we can't buy our salvation So only those with the mark of the beast can buy and sell I want to thank you for asking. I never had a good answer for that before. Your question caused me to rethink it and I am pleased with my answer. Please let me know your thoughts. Thanks

The forehead symbolizes the things we think about and the hand symbolizes our actions. A God fearing person with think about Godly things and will act in Godly ways. A sinful man will think about sinful things and do sinful acts. There are only two kinds of people in this world. Those marked with the Holy Spirit and those with the mark of the beast Deuteronomy 6 6 These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts. 7 Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. 8 Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. Deuteronomy 11:18 Fix these words of mine in your hearts and minds; tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads.

I am still a little con fused because of your opening post, If we are one body, all believers Jews and gentiles Why do you separate believing jews from Christians. you said "In Revelation there will be 144,000 Jewish believers in Jesus who witness to (apparently Israel). Could it be incumbent of Christians to help pave the way for these Hebrew evangelists?" are not believing Jews Christians

I am just wanting to understand before I go further. I am I correct in saying that all believers Jew and gentile are spiritual Israel. A believing Jew is also a part of spiritual Israel In exodus when someone committed certain sins, God would tell mosses, they are to be cut off from the people. Cut off from Israel, because of certain sin they were cut off, no longer part of Israel, even though that was their heritage. They were physically a Jew or Israeli, but they were spiritually dead, because they no longer belonged to Gods family and were not able to get atonement for there sins. Who are these people who were cut off? Am I wrong to say that even then there was a physical Israel and a spiritual one

What happens to Christians grafted in, if we are grafted into Israel what tribes are we grafted into?

Scripture has Identified who the two witnesses are, why do you dispute that then? We are told they are the two olive trees, scripture clearly tells us Israel is the natural olive branches and gentiles wild olive branches grafted In. revelation chapter 10 tells us the two witnesses are called the two candlesticks and in revelation chapter one, The Churches are the 7 candle sticks When you saw the Beast you went to scripture and found out who the beast was. Why didn't you treat the candlesticks the same way?

I smiled when I read this, You write here are the facts to show that everything is literal and the very first line you write, The Beast will reign from the temple You feel some beastly creature with horns will reign from the temple. Does that sound symbolic or literal. Revelation 11 tells us fire comes out of their mouths Do you feel that should be taken literal? Its not coming down from heaven, it comes from their mouths. to me I think its a reference to Jeremiah 5 14Therefore this is what the Lord God Almighty says: “Because the people have spoken these words, I will make my words in your mouth a fire and these people the wood it consumes. Literal or symbolic? The beast may be real, but it is not literal They are the two olive trees and two lampstands that stand before the Lord they are clothed in sackcloth and fire comes out of their mouth. How can you take something that is filled with symbolism and then say a literal meaning should be adhered to