Heb 13:8 Posted April 13, 2017 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 35 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,533 Content Per Day: 0.56 Reputation: 382 Days Won: 1 Joined: 11/03/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted April 13, 2017 I also believe Jude 1:20-21 is working off of Eph 6:10-20. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff2 Posted April 13, 2017 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 318 Content Per Day: 0.12 Reputation: 85 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/20/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted April 13, 2017 6 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said: Jude is saying to be a loving Christian towards others, so people can see Christ in you. It's better to love others and forgive then for your love to grow cold like it says in Matt 24:12. This passage has nothing to do with when you got saved or the seal placed on you Eph 1:13-14, Eph 4:30. It's about how you treat others after you get saved. It even tells you how to love others, by building yourselves up in your faith and praying. Jude 1:20-21 But you, dear friends, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, 21keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life. In regards to John 14:21 and John 15:10, the reason Jesus spoke in parables and allegories is here.. Matt 13:10-17 The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?” 11 He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables: “Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. 14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: “ ‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. 15 For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’ 16 But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. 17 For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it. This reminds me of a sign on the blacksmith's wall... "There's a lot of twisting and turning going on here." The plain Scriptures, taken for what they obviously mean, say, "Keep yourselves in the love of God," not "Keep in your love for man expressing God's love." The "keeping yourselves in the love of God" has an end result of "unto Eternal Life." Life is in the Son, and life is only in our connection with God. Keeping ourselves in God's love, in relationship with Him, is much easier that connecting our Eternal Life to whether we are being sufficiently "loving towards others." It is pretty straight-forward what Jesus said without the least ambiguity. As for trying to explain away John 15:10 and 14:21 by an appeal to the mystery of the language of parables, one only has to look at the context to see that neither one of these verses were expressed in a parable or an allegory. With such a hermeneutic, one could wonder whether we could take anything Jesus said at face value. What you are clearly doing is eisegesis, and not exegesis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff2 Posted April 13, 2017 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 318 Content Per Day: 0.12 Reputation: 85 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/20/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted April 13, 2017 7 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said: I also believe Jude 1:20-21 is working off of Eph 6:10-20. I believe that Jude is working off of the following verses; or are the following verses working off of Jude? Matt. 10:22; 24:13; Jn. 8:31; Jn. 15:1-11; 1 Cor. 7:24; Acts. 13:43; 14:22; Rom. 2:7; 6:1; Gal. 2:5; 3:10; Col.1:23; 1 Tim. 2:15; 4:16; 2 Tim. 3:14; Heb. 3:14; Heb. 4:14; 1 Jn. 2:6; 2:10; 2:24, 27, 28; 3:6; 3:14; 3:24; Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted April 13, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,189 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,469 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted April 13, 2017 The false teachers wish to lead you in a wrong direction... think wrongly about what is truth so you believe lie! Anyone that tries to get you to rely on self or the world with which you have began in is not of god but of satan ( for it is all that he ,satan, has control over for we gave it to him when we followed him in the beginning through Adam by sinning). The truth of God herein lies with this John 10:27 (KJV) [27] My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: [28] And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. [29] My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. [30] I and my Father are one. It was not of works with which we have done or else it would be our hands holding us as well but only His hand hold us to the eternal keeping... when one suggest works as a necessary element in being saved they are simply trying to get you to rely on something other than God ... we the children of God are totally and completely secure in this for God cannot lie! Love, Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff2 Posted April 13, 2017 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 318 Content Per Day: 0.12 Reputation: 85 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/20/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted April 13, 2017 1 hour ago, enoob57 said: The false teachers wish to lead you in a wrong direction... think wrongly about what is truth so you believe lie! Just like the serpent in the garden of Eden! And more than likely, they will teach you the same thing! 1 hour ago, enoob57 said: The truth of God herein lies with this John 10:27 (KJV) [27] My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: [28] And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. [29] My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. [30] I and my Father are one. Yes, the truth lies therein. Who are secure? Only the Sheep! Who are the Sheep? Only those that are this very second, present tense hearing, and present tense following Jesus Christ the Shepherd. Sinning is not hearing, and not following; it is rebellion. No Scripture offers someone who is not presently hearing and following any security, but only hope of damnation. Yes, the truth lies therein. Thank you for posting a passage that so clearly refutes the false doctrine of Eternal Security and salvation in sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted April 13, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,189 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,469 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted April 13, 2017 1 minute ago, Jeff2 said: Just like the serpent in the garden of Eden! And more than likely, they will teach you the same thing! Yes, the truth lies therein. Who are secure? Only the Sheep! Who are the Sheep? Only those that are this very second, present tense hearing, and present tense following Jesus Christ the Shepherd. Sinning is not hearing, and not following; it is rebellion. No Scripture offers someone who is not presently hearing and following any security, but only hope of damnation. Yes, the truth lies therein. Thank you for posting a passage that so clearly refutes the false doctrine of Eternal Security and salvation in sin. I am not interested in wallowing in perversions of God's Word... eternal security rest within the Word of God itself and in it I dwell with peace that passes all understanding-> for it is from above as He 'IS' from above and it is succinctly stated as 'IS' (God present tense) that which Holds me unto the joy of His Presence 2 Timothy 1:12 (KJV) [12] For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. Jude 24 (KJV) [24] Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, The simple hermeneutic of these two passages ... written and to the point completely shuts up all the perversions that come against the ability of God to keep that which He has finished for His eternal glory.... there will be many that cry Lord Lord and thought they could mix works of this place into the necessary with Jesus' Blood for salvation but that is damnable heresy born out from satan himself... Love, Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Teditis Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 Even if one of Christ's "sheep" went astray.... He would go out and recover it, as He so clearly illustrated in the Scriptures. Your machinations with verb-tense just doesn't hold up to sound Biblical Truth... He keeps us and sustains us. Always has; Always will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff2 Posted April 13, 2017 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 318 Content Per Day: 0.12 Reputation: 85 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/20/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted April 13, 2017 3 minutes ago, enoob57 said: I am not interested in wallowing in perversions of God's Word... and neither am I! As you said... God cannot lie! Only those that are present tense hearing, following, and believing will be saved! That's what God says! 4 minutes ago, enoob57 said: 2 Timothy 1:12 (KJV) [12] For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. So, Paul is trusting that God will keep the deposit of his invested life to his credit as he suffers for the purpose of the Gospel. Paul has no doubt that the reward is worth the suffering. 10 minutes ago, enoob57 said: Jude 24 (KJV) [24] Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, Do you believe it? I do! We do not serve some weak God that cannot help us in the time of struggle and temptation! He is able to keep us from falling! We don't have to sin and fail any longer thanks to God! And in doing so, the result is that we can be presented faultless in the presence of His glory! What a promise! What hope! I notice that you never seem to give me any Scriptures that would show your doctrine of Eternal Security. Is it just an assumption? Don't you have anything to back it? Or do we just have to believe it because we are taught to read it into every passage we see? For anything to be a Biblical doctrine , doesn't it have to be stated somewhere in Scripture? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff2 Posted April 13, 2017 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 318 Content Per Day: 0.12 Reputation: 85 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/20/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted April 13, 2017 23 minutes ago, Teditis said: Even if one of Christ's "sheep" went astray.... He would go out and recover it, as He so clearly illustrated in the Scriptures. “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open country, and go after the one that is lost, until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep that was lost.’ As was pointed out just a few posts ago, a parable is not always easily understood. Quite incredibly, there are times in which Jesus Himself interprets exactly what He means by the parable. This is one of those times! How does Jesus apply what he means by this? “Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.” Luke 15:4-7 ESV So, clearly, Jesus is not using the term “Sheep” in the sense of believers only, but of the entire population of mankind. But even if we force this “believer only” concept on the passage, we come up with essentially the same result. Jesus says that the parable does not mean that God seeks out the wayward believer and drags him back into the fold, No! Jesus says that the cause of the return is the believer’s repentance! If they never repent, they are never returned to the fold! Go ahead and defy the interpretation of Christ of His own words; but it proves nothing. Thank you for adding one more verse to the heap of evidence against the assumed doctrine of Eternal Security! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Teditis Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 9 minutes ago, Jeff2 said: “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open country, and go after the one that is lost, until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep that was lost.’ As was pointed out just a few posts ago, a parable is not always easily understood. Quite incredibly, there are times in which Jesus Himself interprets exactly what He means by the parable. This is one of those times! How does Jesus apply what he means by this? “Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.” Luke 15:4-7 ESV So, clearly, Jesus is not using the term “Sheep” in the sense of believers only, but of the entire population of mankind. But even if we force this “believer only” concept on the passage, we come up with essentially the same result. Jesus says that the parable does not mean that God seeks out the wayward believer and drags him back into the fold, No! Jesus says that the cause of the return is the believer’s repentance! If they never repent, they are never returned to the fold! Go ahead and defy the interpretation of Christ of His own words; but it proves nothing. Thank you for adding one more verse to the heap of evidence against the assumed doctrine of Eternal Security! Again, you miss the point that Jesus initiated the action and added the sheep to His fold. He Saves and maintains that Salvation. We know this because of the numerous times He states that none shall be lost that were His nor nobody/nothing can snatch them away from Him.\ You keep overlooking the obvious here in Scripture to maintain your warped, convoluted teaching. One really needs to repent of false teaching before you can move into Truth. The Holy Spirit will guide someone into this Truth provided that they admit that they "could" be wrong and wish to open their heart to God and rely solely on God's Provision for all Truth in our lives. We need to have a transformation of heart in order to receive any of God's bounty. A teachable Spirit is a must for growing into maturity, spiritually. Let go of pretending you have the truth... you've been shown countless times, with Scripture, that your teaching is false and corrupted. You haven't been able to counter anything that people have put forward in regards to Scripture's endless demonstrations that the true Believer can indeed have Assurance of their Eternal Salvation that God began, maintains, keeps, grows and nourishes throughout the Believer's lifetime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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