Why We Should Mourn for the Copts, But Not Assume They’re Christians

[Danger Noodle]

Coptic simply means, Egyptian (link)

I.E. for purposes of this thread, mourning the loss of countless members of the persecuted church in Egypt that were destroyed in bombings on Palm Sunday, what is being discussed is Egyptian Orthodox Christian brothers and sisters. Who are now slaughtered in Egypt due to ISIS' resolve to divide Egypt by killing the Christians there. 

Think about that when you all read this thread's purpose here and what it claims of those martyred to our faith by terrorists in Egypt who do not think Christians are God's people nor do they have the right to live. 

 

What Orthodox Christians Believe

 

SALVATION is the divine gift through which men and women are delivered from sin and death, united to Christ, and brought into His eternal Kingdom. Those who heard Peter’s sermon on the Day of Pentecost asked what they must do to be saved. He answered, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit” (Acts 2:38). Salvation begins with these three “steps”: 1) repent, 2) be baptized, and 3) receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. To repent means to change our mind about how we have been, turning from our sin and committing ourselves to Christ. To be baptized means to be born again by being joined into union with Christ. And to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit means to receive the Spirit who empowers us to enter a new life in Christ, be nurtured in the Church, and be conformed to God’s image.

[Guest shiloh357]

1 hour ago, Danger Noodle said:

Coptic simply means, Egyptian (link)

I.E. for purposes of this thread, mourning the loss of countless members of the persecuted church in Egypt that were destroyed in bombings on Palm Sunday, what is being discussed is Egyptian Orthodox Christian brothers and sisters. Who are now slaughtered in Egypt due to ISIS' resolve to divide Egypt by killing the Christians there. 

Think about that when you all read this thread's purpose here and what it claims of those martyred to our faith by terrorists in Egypt who do not think Christians are God's people nor do they have the right to live. 

 

What Orthodox Christians Believe

 

SALVATION is the divine gift through which men and women are delivered from sin and death, united to Christ, and brought into His eternal Kingdom. Those who heard Peter’s sermon on the Day of Pentecost asked what they must do to be saved. He answered, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit” (Acts 2:38). Salvation begins with these three “steps”: 1) repent, 2) be baptized, and 3) receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. To repent means to change our mind about how we have been, turning from our sin and committing ourselves to Christ. To be baptized means to be born again by being joined into union with Christ. And to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit means to receive the Spirit who empowers us to enter a new life in Christ, be nurtured in the Church, and be conformed to God’s image.

Being baptized, biblically, is not a step to salvation.  Baptism, biblically, is not the same as being born again.  Baptism is what we do after salvation. The Orthodox teach baptism as a requirement for salvation, and that alone, places it outside biblical Christianity.

Not downplaying the horrible terrorist attack that slaughtered so many of the Copts, but we have to be honest about their brand of "Christianity."

[Danger Noodle]

What Orthodox Christians Believe

 

BAPTISM is the way in which a person is actually united to Christ. The experience of salvation is initiated in the waters of baptism. The Apostle Paul teaches in Romans 6:1-6 that in baptism we experience Christ’s death and Resurrection. In it our sins are truly forgiven and we are energized by our union with Christ to live a holy life.

Nowadays, some consider baptism to be only an “outward sign” of belief in Christ. This innovation has no historical or biblical precedent. Others reduce it to a mere perfunctory obedience to Christ’s command (cf. Matthew 28:19, 20). Still others, ignoring the Bible completely, reject baptism as a vital factor in salvation. Orthodoxy maintains that these contemporary innovations rob sincere people of the important assurance that baptism provides-namely that they have been united to Christ and are part of His Church.

 

NEW BIRTH is receiving new life and is the way we gain entrance into God’s Kingdom and His Church. Jesus said, “Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God” (John 3:5). From the beginning, the Church has taught that the “water” is the baptismal water and the “Spirit” is the Holy Spirit. The New Birth occurs in baptism, where we die with Christ, are buried with Him, and are raised with Him in the newness of His Resurrection, being joined into union with Him in His glorified humanity (Romans 6:3,4). The historically late idea that being “born again” is a religious experience disassociated from baptism has no biblical basis whatsoever.

[Guest shiloh357]

1 minute ago, Danger Noodle said:

What Orthodox Christians Believe

 

BAPTISM is the way in which a person is actually united to Christ. The experience of salvation is initiated in the waters of baptism. The Apostle Paul teaches in Romans 6:1-6 that in baptism we experience Christ’s death and Resurrection. In it our sins are truly forgiven and we are energized by our union with Christ to live a holy life.

Nowadays, some consider baptism to be only an “outward sign” of belief in Christ. This innovation has no historical or biblical precedent. Others reduce it to a mere perfunctory obedience to Christ’s command (cf. Matthew 28:19, 20). Still others, ignoring the Bible completely, reject baptism as a vital factor in salvation. Orthodoxy maintains that these contemporary innovations rob sincere people of the important assurance that baptism provides-namely that they have been united to Christ and are part of His Church.

 

NEW BIRTH is receiving new life and is the way we gain entrance into God’s Kingdom and His Church. Jesus said, “Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God” (John 3:5). From the beginning, the Church has taught that the “water” is the baptismal water and the “Spirit” is the Holy Spirit. The New Birth occurs in baptism, where we die with Christ, are buried with Him, and are raised with Him in the newness of His Resurrection, being joined into union with Him in His glorified humanity (Romans 6:3,4). The historically late idea that being “born again” is a religious experience disassociated from baptism has no biblical basis whatsoever.

And they could not be more mistaken.  

Salvation is by grace through faith in Christ alone. It comes through being born again (John 3:3-6).  Baptism is not dissociated from being born again, but it not part of the born again experience.  It is an act of obedience subsequent to being born again.

[Danger Noodle]

 

Orthodox Church of America

Salvation Is Indeed By Grace

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At a recent, post-liturgical coffee hour, a catechumen raised a question that has troubled many people who were brought up in a Protestant environment and at some point found themselves drawn to Orthodoxy. “If we are saved by grace, and not by works,” he asked, “why does the Orthodox Church put so much stress on ascetic practice? Why should it be necessary, or even useful, to fast as we do, to make countless prostrations during Great Lent, to stand for hours through long services, and even to give so much money to the Church?” (He was preparing to enter a parish in the Southern Diocese, where tithing is usually considered an important part of personal spiritual discipline.) Then he added, “Aren’t all these things works? And what happens if I don’t do them? Am I cast out of the Kingdom and basically condemned to hell?”

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So we, as Orthodox Christians, affirm as clearly and unambiguously as any Lutheran, for example, that “salvation is by grace” and not by our works. Unlike medieval Catholicism, Orthodoxy does not hold that a person can build up a “treasury of merits” that will count in our favor at the Judgment Seat of Christ. What will matter then is our having surrendered our sin to God through confession, and our gestures of love (Mt. 25), together with the unshakable conviction that “Jesus Christ is Lord,” and the unique Way to eternal life.

 

 

What Orthodox Christians Believe

JUSTIFICATION is a word used in the Scriptures to mean that in Christ we are forgiven and actually made righteous in our living. Justification is not a once-for-all, instantaneous pronouncement guaranteeing eternal salvation, no matter how wickedly a person may live from that point on. Neither is it merely a legal declaration that an unrighteous person is righteous. Rather, justification is a living, dynamic, day-to-day reality for the one who follows Christ. The Christian actively pursues a righteous life in the grace and power of God granted to all who are believing Him.

 

SANCTIFICATION is being set apart for God. It involves us in the process of being cleansed and made holy by Christ in the Holy Spirit. We are called to be saints and to grow into the likeness of God. Having been given the gift of the Holy Spirit, we actively participate in sanctification. We cooperate with God, we work together with Him, that we may know Him, becoming by grace what He is by nature.

[Guest shiloh357]

2 hours ago, Danger Noodle said:

 

Orthodox Church of America

Salvation Is Indeed By Grace

 

 

What Orthodox Christians Believe

JUSTIFICATION is a word used in the Scriptures to mean that in Christ we are forgiven and actually made righteous in our living. Justification is not a once-for-all, instantaneous pronouncement guaranteeing eternal salvation, no matter how wickedly a person may live from that point on. Neither is it merely a legal declaration that an unrighteous person is righteous. Rather, justification is a living, dynamic, day-to-day reality for the one who follows Christ. The Christian actively pursues a righteous life in the grace and power of God granted to all who are believing Him.

 

SANCTIFICATION is being set apart for God. It involves us in the process of being cleansed and made holy by Christ in the Holy Spirit. We are called to be saints and to grow into the likeness of God. Having been given the gift of the Holy Spirit, we actively participate in sanctification. We cooperate with God, we work together with Him, that we may know Him, becoming by grace what He is by nature.

They teach salvation by grace, but not salvation by grace through faith in Christ alone.  Synergy is just another way of saying that we have to keep ourselves saved.  That is essentially salvation by works.  Salvation is not a cooperation between God and man.   That is where the Orthodox really have it wrong.   Salvation 100% and solely the work of God.   We have partnership with God in our salvation, whether you're talking about how a person gets saved, or how they remain saved.

Justification, biblically, is a forensic declaration, an imputation of righteousness by virtue of our faith in Christ and His finished work on the corss.   Justification is not the process where are made righteous.   We will not realize the full impartation of righteousness until we receive our glorified bodies and sin is eradicated.  The word for justification in the Greek indicates that righteousness is declared and imputed.

[Danger Noodle]

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Notice a most important sentence that separates us from both Romans and Protestants, “Therefore, so that a Christian may please God and his works may be accepted by him, first it is necessary that he have faith in God and then he must form his life according to this faith.” Like Protestants, the statement says that faith is necessary first. Salvation is by grace through faith, not by works, Romans miss this point. St. James’ phrase on justification by works is not equated to forensic justification but to a twofold of faith and conscience. But, we are then called to form our life. If we fail to do this, then we do make a shipwreck concerning the faith. 

(Fr. Ernesto Obregon: An Orthodox View of the Issues In Sola Fide)

 

Faith and Deeds

James 2:14-26 

¹⁴ What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

¹⁵ If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

¹⁶ And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

¹⁷ Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

¹⁸ Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

¹⁹ Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

²⁰ But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

²¹ Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

²² Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

²³ And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

²⁴ Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

²⁵ Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

²⁶ For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

King James Version (KJV)

Public Domain

 

 

Titus 3:4-8 

⁴ But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, ⁵ Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;⁶ Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;⁷ That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.⁸ This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

King James Version (KJV)

Public Domain

[Guest shiloh357]

3 minutes ago, Danger Noodle said:

 

Faith and Deeds

James 2:14-26 

¹⁴ What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

¹⁵ If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

¹⁶ And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

¹⁷ Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

¹⁸ Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

¹⁹ Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

²⁰ But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

²¹ Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

²² Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

²³ And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

²⁴ Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

²⁵ Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

²⁶ For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

King James Version (KJV)

Public Domain

 

 

Titus 3:4-8 

⁴ But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, ⁵ Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;⁶ Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;⁷ That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.⁸ This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

King James Version (KJV)

Public Domain

James is not talking about faith and justification in terms of our eternal salvation.   He is not talking about our justification before God.   James is talking about our works justifying our profession of faith before men.   James and Paul use "justify" in two completely different ways.   Paul says, in terms of redemption, that we are justified by faith alone, apart from works.   James is talking about something different.   Our works justify (in the sense of affirm) our profession of faith before men.  It is important to get the to get the two contexts confused.  Our works play no role in our justification before God with respect to eternal salvation.

[Danger Noodle]

"We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone"

"For, as Dr. Luther writes in the preface to St. Paul’s Epistle to the Romans, “Faith is a divine work in us which changes us and makes us to be born anew of God [John 1:12–13]. It kills the old ‘Adam’ and makes us altogether different people, in heart and spirit and mind and all powers; and it brings with it the Holy Spirit. O, it is a living, busy, active, mighty thing, this faith. It is impossible for it not to be doing good works incessantly. f It does not ask whether good works are to be done, but before the question is asked, it has already done them, and is constantly doing them. Whoever does not do such works, however, is an unbeliever, who gropes and looks around for faith and good works, but knows neither what faith is nor what good works are. Yet such a person talks and talks, with many words, about faith and good works. Faith is a living, daring confidence in God’s grace, so sure and certain that the believer would stake life itself on it a thousand times. f This knowledge of and confidence in God’s grace makes people glad and bold and happy in dealing with God and with all creatures. And this is the work which the Holy Spirit performs in faith. Because of it, without compulsion, a person is ready and glad to do good to everyone, to serve everyone, to suffer everything, out of love and praise to God, who has shown this grace. Thus, it is impossible to separate works from faith, quite as impossible as to separate heat and light from fire.”" (Robert Kolb and Timothy J. Wengert, eds., The Book of Concord: The Confessions of the Evangelical Lutheran Church (Accordance electronic ed. Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 2000), 576.)

Pastor Steve Bauer (http://stevebauer.us)

 

 

2 Bible results for “faith without works is dead.” Showing results 1-2.

Book of Isaiah

Suggested result

James 2:14-26 [Full Chapter]

[Danger Noodle]

 

This series of posts I've made are to bring to light something very disturbing. Egyptian Christians were slaughtered on Palm Sunday in Egypt by terrorist Muslims martyring themselves through explosive devices in churches celebrating Palm Sunday. The carnage is unimaginable. May we never know how that feels or looks in any Christian church in America. 

To then put forth a statement that conflicts with all compassion taught by Christ. The statement that we should mourn the Copts, which is a word meaning Egyptian, but not assume the one's slaughtered on Palm Sunday were Christians. Egyptian Orthodox Christians were slaughtered on April 9th by zealous ISIS Muslims who vow to divide Egypt by killing the Christians. They're dedicated to slaughtering babies, children, men, women, because in ISIS belief system these innocents are not of God. And they therefore do not deserve to live. 

They are not of Christ! But we should mourn them. 

There are Coptic Christians who today are making arrangements to bury their dead. 

And there is a movement on this forum that states we should mourn them but, which by grammatical standard the conjunction "but"  disqualifies for the statement that preceded it, we should not assume  they are Christians. A journalist writing an article for publication on the net as that which appears in the OP knows English grammar. Therefore what is intended to be communicated is: The dead Orthodox Christians who died on Palm Sunday do to a terrorist attack against them in their churches were not Christians!

Every post I've shown with resource links proves Christian Orthodox is Christian. Be they Egyptian or otherwise. They are like unto us in the Father's grace, faith and belief in Christ. And as Jesus' beloved teachings tell those brothers and sisters in Christ here and in the world, Jesus did not die alone! Grace by the father, lead to Christ being born. Faith in Christ and his death on the cross leads to Salvation afforded by God's grace, through his son Jesus Christ. 

To imagine that faith is all we need to have in any degree whatsoever and that alone gains us Heaven is not what the scriptures teach. But that is what is being argued by some. Imagine the possibilities of that one. 

Yes, I believe Jesus died for my sins. And I'm a drug dealer believing in Christ. 

Yes, I believe Jesus died for my sins due to God's grace. And I'm a prostitute. I'm a hitman. I'm a terrorist. I'm a fornicator who shames my marriage and disrespects my husband as I have multiple affairs. But, I have faith in Jesus. Alone. That's it. 

That's not Biblical. Consider what Jesus died for. Don't even try to imagine how he suffered the scorge. For my sake. And for yours. 

Now imagine how you'd feel if a terrorist blew themselves up in your church on your day of celebrating the calendar of God's sacred days. Easter, Christmas, Palm Sunday. And someone said you weren't a Christian. That's their point! That's it. That is all. It's the grammar after all. It's the language meant to tell us, they're dead! But they're not to be assumed to have died in Christ. 

 

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The head of the Orthodox Church is Jesus Christ alone (Ephesians I :22-23). While the Church has leadership in its Bishops, there is no single person who is an “earthly head” of the Church. (Source:St.Luke the Evangelist Orthodox  Church)

 

What Christians Want To Know

Are Christians Saints? A Bible Study

The Root Word for Saints

The root word of the word saint corresponds to the Latin word sanctus which means “holy“ or “sacred." Thus, someone who is sanctified is “set apart for holy use.” Surely Christians are made holy by the atoning work of Christ at Calvary on the cross. They of themselves are not holy, but once they become saved, they are set apart for holy use by God and that is to glorify God and share the Good News with those who are not yet saved. 

The Use of “Saints” in the Old Testament

Psalm 106:16 and Daniel 8:13

The Use of “Saints” in the New Testament  There are dozens and dozens of references to the “saints" in the New Testament but these were not to those already departed or for those who were “beatified" or “canonized." (Source: What Christians Want To Know)

 

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9. Why Do Orthodox Christians Honor the Saints? Every saint has become holy only through the mercy and grace of God; it is He who is glorified when we honor His holy ones.

10. What Do Orthodox Christians Believe About Faith and Works?

How can one get from the one kingdom to the other? By the unity of grace, faith, and works. Not that these are equal, for grace is uncreated and infinite, our faith is limited and can grow, and good works flow out of authentic faith. Works cannot earn us this great treasure - it is a pure gift - but those who receive this gift do good. We are not saved by good works, but for good works.

This is seen in Holy Scriptures in Ephesians 2:8-10, ‘For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.’

(Source: St.Luke the Evangelist Orthodox Church)