Why We Should Mourn for the Copts, But Not Assume They’re Christians

[Guest shiloh357]

1 hour ago, Judas Machabeus said:

We are not to judge someone's salvation. Only God can judge that, but there are some that seem to think they are qualified for the job. 

 

Actually, we are.  I John and II John were written to help early believers be able to know the difference between true and false believers.   There have always been people who claim to be Christians for reasons that have nothing to do with Jesus. 

If you are a truly born again believer, and someone questions your salvation, that should not offend you.  If anything, it gives you an opportunity to give your testimony. 

[JoshuasonFlower]

5 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

 

If you are a truly born again believer, and someone questions your salvation, that should not offend you.  If anything, it gives you an opportunity to give your testimony. 

That's an invalid observation with regard to the content and message in the OP. 

Edited April 24, 2017 by JoshuasonFlower

[Guest shiloh357]

1 minute ago, JoshuasonFlower said:

That's an invalid observation with regard to the content and message in the OP. 

I wasn't addressing the OP.  I was addressing a different comment.

And the OP is correct.  Just because someone dons the title of "Christian"  it doesn't mean they are part of authentic NT Christianity.  

[JoshuasonFlower]

32 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

I wasn't addressing the OP.  I was addressing a different comment.

And the OP is correct.  Just because someone dons the title of "Christian"  it doesn't mean they are part of authentic NT Christianity.  

I'd disagree that your remark about someone identifying as Christian and those questioning that provide that Christian an opportunity to give their testimony. The OP article in as much proves this by using the words you're using now quoted above. The article posted says just because the Coptic Orthodox Christians called themselves Christians doesn't mean we should assume they are Christian. 
 

Your prior remark that I addressed, If you are a truly born again believer, and someone questions your salvation, that should not offend you.  If anything, it gives you an opportunity to give your testimony, doesn't pertain to the OP because those victims of the Muslim terrorist attack in the churches on Palm Sunday are dead now. Or horribly injured if any survived the blasts. Now, the article you posted stating we should mourn them but not assume they were Christian, rather than engendering sincere sympathy for lost sisters and brothers among members here, or the Net public that reads the original published at Pulpit & Pen affords a different style of assault on the Coptic Orthodox Christian dead.

One that says, as you've made mention here, just because they said they were Orthodox Coptic Christians doesn't mean they were Christians.
If being part of the authentic New Testament Church qualifies one to be respected in death as a fallen Christian, when even the Muslim terrorists who killed themselves so as to kill members of two different Coptic Orthodox Christian churches did so because they believed those church members were Christian, then there's no question the Coptic Orthodox Christians are Christian. Their church and the tenets pertaining to Grace, Faith, Redemption, Salvation, Baptism, are older than the denomination you are member of. That I'm member of.

Furthermore, your observation actually violates what I read in the TOS here. Members here aren't permitted to claim someone here is not a Christian when they identify as that. If that charge is opportune for testimony, I'd think a site that represents as a ministry on the Net would not make it a violation of the member terms of service to question or doubt openly a member is a member of Christ's church.
But this thread takes a broad brush and swipes it across all the dead in two churches in Egypt and says, that very thing.

What opportunity is afforded people martyred for their faith to defend they died as Christians?

What member of Christ's church with God's Holy Spirit sealed inside themselves, and with the wisdom of Holy God's only Son in their heart wherein we are told to show love to one another, charity, compassion, support, would insist first with this thread, that those who are dead and unable to speak for themselves could not testify they were Christians because they are not?

Edited April 24, 2017 by JoshuasonFlower

[Guest shiloh357]

Just now, JoshuasonFlower said:

I'd disagree that your remark about someone identifying as Christian and those questioning that provide that Christian an opportunity to give their testimony. The OP article in as much proves this by using the words you're using now quoted above. The article posted says just because the Coptic Orthodox Christians called themselves Christians doesn't mean we should assume they are Christian. 
 

And that is correct.

Quote

Your prior remark that I addressed, If you are a truly born again believer, and someone questions your salvation, that should not offend you.  If anything, it gives you an opportunity to give your testimony, doesn't pertain to the OP because those victims of the Muslim terrorist attack in the churches on Palm Sunday are dead now.

You're right, it doesn't pertain to the OP.  It wasn't intended to pertain to the OP.  It was a response to a different comment in thread. 

Quote

Or horribly injured if any survived the blasts. Now, the article you posted stating we should mourn them but not assume they were Christian, rather than engendering sincere sympathy for lost sisters and brothers among members here, or the Net public that reads the original published at Pulpit & Pen affords a different style of assault on the Coptic Orthodox Christian dead.

It's not an assault on them at all.  It reflect a biblical and spiritual reality.  If someone I knew died and they believed the were a Christian because they went to church and were sprinkled as an infant, I would mourn their death, but I would not assume they were a Christian because they believe they are a Christian for reasons that have nothing to do with Jesus.   That is not an "assault"  on them;  it is a very simple and very important biblical/scriptural reality.   There is only way to Heaven and that is through Jesus Christ.  There is no salvation by martyrdom.

Quote

One that says, as you've made mention here, just because they said they were Orthodox Coptic Christians doesn't mean they were Christians.
If being part of the authentic New Testament Church qualifies one to be respected in death as a fallen Christian, when even the Muslim terrorists who killed themselves so as to kill members of two different Coptic Orthodox Christian churches did so because they believed those church members were Christian, then there's no question the Coptic Orthodox Christians are Christian. Their church and the tenets pertaining to Grace, Faith, Redemption, Salvation, Baptism, are older than the denomination you are member of. That I'm member of.

Being part of any church doesn't qualify anyone to be considered a Christian.   We are Christians if we have been born again, having accepted Jesus as our Lord and Savior.  Unless we have come that hour of decision in our lives where have trusted in Christ alone on the basis of His finished work on the cross, then we are not authentic followers of Christ.    Simply following the tenets of any part of the Christian religion, has no salvational value.  All of the piety and all of the participation in the external Christian community will not put anyone in right standing with God.   And it really doesn't matter how old they are.   Age has nothing to do with whether or not your theology is sound and correct.

Quote

Furthermore, your observation actually violates what I read in the TOS here. Members here aren't permitted to claim someone here is not a Christian when they identify as that. If that charge is opportune for testimony, I'd think a site that represents as a ministry on the Net would not make it a violation of the member terms of service to question or doubt openly a member is a member of Christ's church.
But this thread takes a broad brush and swipes it across all the dead in two churches in Egypt and says, that very thing.

Mormons think they are Christians.   But we can challenge their claims.  Lots of false teachers have gotten on here claiming to be Christians and have rightfully been challenged. 
 

Quote

 

What opportunity is afforded people martyred for their faith to defend they died as Christians?

What member of Christ's church with God's Holy Spirit sealed inside themselves, and with the wisdom of Holy God's only Son in their heart wherein we are told to show love to one another, charity, compassion, support, would insist first with this thread, that those who are dead and unable to speak for themselves could not testify they were Christians because they are not?

 

There are two kinds of Christians.   There are those who simply exist in the external Christian community, who belong to the Christian "religion."   And there are those who are born again by the Spirit of God through faith in Christ alone for salvation.   Dying as a Christian doesn't automatically guarantee that someone died in Christ.

[JoshuasonFlower]

13 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

 

There are two kinds of Christians.   There are those who simply exist in the external Christian community, who belong to the Christian "religion."   And there are those who are born again by the Spirit of God through faith in Christ alone for salvation.   Dying as a Christian doesn't automatically guarantee that someone died in Christ.

In your opinion as one who promotes the OP article as worthy of respect but the dead not so, nor are they worthy of  being identified as Christians when their murderers even did so, there are two kinds of Christians.

 The Orthodox Christian church and the Christians within are in Christ. 

Edited April 24, 2017 by JoshuasonFlower

[Guest shiloh357]

4 minutes ago, JoshuasonFlower said:

In your opinion as one who promotes the OP article as worthy of respect but the dead not so, nor are they worthy of  being identified as Christians when their murderers even did so, there are two kinds of Christians.

 The Orthodox Christian church and the Christians within are in Christ. 

they may be "Christians"  in that they belong to the Christian religion, but that doesn't make someone an authentic follower of Jesus.

[JoshuasonFlower]

Psalm 109:17
He also loved cursing, so it came to him; And he did not delight in blessing, so it was far from him.
 

[Guest shiloh357]

1 minute ago, JoshuasonFlower said:

Psalm 109:17
He also loved cursing, so it came to him; And he did not delight in blessing, so it was far from him.
 

No one is cursing anyone.  Just being honest about what it actually takes to be a Christian.   And the next veiled personal attack like that will be reported. 

[TheMatrixHasU71]

On ‎23‎/‎04‎/‎2017 at 5:20 PM, FresnoJoe said:

No Matter What The Denomination Or The Church

Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? Acts 15:10 (English Standard Version)

The Denomination does matter for if you are part of a church that teaches corrupt doctrines and if you actually follow those corrupt doctrines then you aren't saved. Acts 15:10 btw has to do with the Jews who wanted to convert new Christian believers to the Mosaic Law; doesn't have anything to do with church denominations