Marilyn C Posted May 2, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 266 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,204 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,497 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Share Posted May 2, 2017 Just now, shiloh357 said: No, he didn't and the text of Daniel doesn't say that, at all. That is something you are reading into the text. `I watched till thrones were put in place,.......the court (of judgment) was seated.` (Dan. 7: 9 & 10) `...around the throne were 24 elders...saying, "You ....have made us kings & priests to our God.` (Rev. 4: 4, 5: 9 & 10) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 Just now, Marilyn C said: `I watched till thrones were put in place,.......the court (of judgment) was seated.` (Dan. 7: 9 & 10) When I quoted Rev. 5:11-14. I was not quoting it to describe the same situation, only to show the similarity between the descriptions of the angels. Those are not the same events in Daniel and Revelation. The judgement was set, but that does not include all of the saints and the text doesn't support your interpretation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted May 2, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 266 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,204 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,497 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Share Posted May 2, 2017 10 minutes ago, shiloh357 said: When I quoted Rev. 5:11-14. I was not quoting it to describe the same situation, only to show the similarity between the descriptions of the angels. Those are not the same events in Daniel and Revelation. The judgement was set, but that does not include all of the saints and the text doesn't support your interpretation. As I said previously Looking at Rev. ch. 4 & 5 we see the Lord and the overcomers on thrones, but previous to Daniel`s scene, (ie before judgment) Rev. 4 & 5 - the 24 elders, representing the overcomers, are on thrones around the Lord`s throne. They will rule & reign & judge the world system & angels. Dan. 7: 9 & 10 - the heavenly court, before the Lord`s throne. They judge the world system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted May 2, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 266 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,204 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,497 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Share Posted May 2, 2017 On 28/04/2017 at 9:18 AM, shiloh357 said: I think it's time to move on to main topic of this debate which is namely that you believe that the saints will be with Jesus in heaven during the Millennium. I am curious how you are going to make that case. So I will make a start. I believe the overcomers will be with Christ on His throne in the third heaven as that is the start of the restoration of all things. God will ` send Jesus Christ....whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, of which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.` (Acts 3: 20 & 21) The Lord made every authority position in every realm and they will all come under His power & authority. `For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.` (Col. 1: 16) The first authority that needs to be restored is in the third heaven. It was here that Lucifer held the position and authority of a kingpriest. He ruled over a third of the angels & led the worship to God, until he was cast out. `I will exalt my throne above the stars of God.` (Isa. 14: 13) `Every precious stone was your covering....You were the anointed cherub who covers.` (Ez. 28: 13 & 14) Authority & power in the third heaven, has never been filled, as no angel or person, is worthy. However in God`s timing He will send Jesus, (from His right hand) to `catch up` the overcomers and take them to the third heaven where He will be inaugurated and crowned, Sovereign ruler. `To Him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on my throne, as I overcame and sat down with my Father on His throne.` (Rev. 3: 21) `...behold a throne set in heaven......You are worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power; for you created all things, and by your will they exist and were created.` (Rev. 4: 2 & 11) A throne is set up in the third heaven, meaning that God the Father is giving His Son and Heir the authority and power to rule and put down all rebellion. God the Father said to His Son, `rule in the midst of your enemies.` (Ps. 110: 1) `For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.` (1 Cor. 15: 25) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 5 hours ago, Marilyn C said: As I said previously Looking at Rev. ch. 4 & 5 we see the Lord and the overcomers on thrones, but previous to Daniel`s scene, (ie before judgment) Rev. 4 & 5 - the 24 elders, representing the overcomers, are on thrones around the Lord`s throne. They will rule & reign & judge the world system & angels. Dan. 7: 9 & 10 - the heavenly court, before the Lord`s throne. They judge the world system. The 24 elders represent the raptured believers and the time frame is the rapture. Nowhere are they said to judge anyone at this time, from heaven. In fact, they are not judging anyone from heaven at any time. Nowhere in Daniel 7:9, 1o does it say that the thrones are occupied by the saints. Dan. 7:9 refers to the thrones of the 10 kings being cast down at the 2nd Coming of Jesus after the destruction of the Antichrist's empire at Babylon. Nothing is said about any saints sitting on thrones. You are reading that into the passage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 3 minutes ago, Marilyn C said: So I will make a start. I believe the overcomers will be with Christ on His throne in the third heaven as that is the start of the restoration of all things. Before I address the rest of your post, I should have asked this earlier: Define who you are calling the "overcomers." Who are the overcomers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted May 2, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 266 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,204 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,497 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Share Posted May 2, 2017 Just now, shiloh357 said: Before I address the rest of your post, I should have asked this earlier: Define who you are calling the "overcomers." Who are the overcomers? The overcomers I believe are believers who are in the Body of Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 Quote So I will make a start. I believe the overcomers will be with Christ on His throne in the third heaven as that is the start of the restoration of all things. God will ` send Jesus Christ....whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, of which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.` (Acts 3: 20 & 21) God will send Jesus Christ. Okay. Send Him.... where?? Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. (Act 3:19-21) According to that passage. Jesus is in Heaven until the restoration and then He is sent from Heaven. Where is He being sent to? Quote The Lord made every authority position in every realm and they will all come under His power & authority. `For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.` (Col. 1: 16) The first authority that needs to be restored is in the third heaven. Why? Where does the Bible say that God must restore that position? Quote It was here that Lucifer held the position and authority of a kingpriest. Does the Bible call Lucifer a "king/priest?" Again, you're reading stuff into the Bible that isn't there. Quote He ruled over a third of the angels & led the worship to God, until he was cast out. Where does the Bible say that Lucifer ruled a third of the angels? Where was any angel called a king over anything? Where does the Bible call Lucifer a priest? A priest was as redemptive role. Angels hold no redemptive roles in Scripture. Quote `I will exalt my throne above the stars of God.` (Isa. 14: 13) `Every precious stone was your covering....You were the anointed cherub who covers.` (Ez. 28: 13 & 14) Just because Lucifer may have had a throne (it is not clear if he was talking about a throne he currently occupied, or if he had in mind a future throne that he would place above the stars), it doesn't make him a king. He wanted to be a king, but nowhere does the Bible attribute Kingship/authority to Satan. Quote Authority & power in the third heaven, has never been filled, as no angel or person, is worthy. How do you know? Quote However in God`s timing He will send Jesus, (from His right hand) to `catch up` the overcomers and take them to the third heaven where He will be inaugurated and crowned, Sovereign ruler. `To Him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on my throne, as I overcame and sat down with my Father on His throne.` (Rev. 3: 21) Again, we have figures of speech in play. God the Father is an omnipresent spirit. He doesn't sit on a throne. "Sat down with my Father on this throne" simply means sharing in His authority. Jesus is promising the same thing to the Church. But we see in Daniel 7: 13-14 that Jesus is going to be given an earthly Kingdom and, consistent with many other passages regarding the Millennium, in Scripture all flesh on earth will worship Him while he is in His Millennial Temple, on earth. (Is. 2: 2-4, 66:23-24; Zech. 14:16-17; Micah 4:1-4). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted May 3, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 266 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,204 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,497 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Share Posted May 3, 2017 22 hours ago, shiloh357 said: God will send Jesus Christ. Okay. Send Him.... where?? Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. (Act 3:19-21) According to that passage. Jesus is in Heaven until the restoration and then He is sent from Heaven. Where is He being sent to? God will send Jesus to begin the restoration of all things as spoken by the OT prophets. God will send Jesus to meet the Body of Christ in the air. God will bring with Jesus those who sleep in Jesus. They will escort the Lord to His own throne in the third heaven. `meet` Gk. Apantesis, is used only on three occasions in the NT, each with the connotation of escorting a person to their destination. Jesus will soon be moving to a new destination - His own throne, and the overcomers will escort Him. `For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord, Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.` (1 Thess. 4: 14 & 17) 22 hours ago, shiloh357 said: Why? Where does the Bible say that God must restore that position? When God created the heavens and the earth, He established different realms with positions of authority – the third heaven, the Universe & the earth. These are all within God`s great kingdom rule and were established by the Lord Jesus Christ, `For by Him, (Christ) all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.` (Col. 1: 16) God is not the author of confusion; everything He does is ordered and controlled. The divine pattern of the heavenlies will survive time, into eternity. It will not be changed, only those which exercise authority in each realm. There is a descending order of authority instituted – heaven and earth, involving thrones, dominions, principalities and powers. 22 hours ago, shiloh357 said: How do you know? I said -Authority & power in the third heaven, has never been filled, as no angel or person, is worthy. “Who is worthy to open the scroll and to loose its seals?” And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or to look at it.` (Rev. 5: 3) No one in heaven or earth or under the earth, no one anywhere, is worthy to receive the great authority and power to execute the Father`s commands written upon the symbolic scroll. No one that is, till Jesus prevailed against the enemy and received the authority and power `to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals.` (Rev. 5: 5) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 6 hours ago, Marilyn C said: God will send Jesus to begin the restoration of all things as spoken by the OT prophets. God will send Jesus to meet the Body of Christ in the air. God will bring with Jesus those who sleep in Jesus. They will escort the Lord to His own throne in the third heaven. `meet` Gk. Apantesis, is used only on three occasions in the NT, each with the connotation of escorting a person to their destination. Jesus will soon be moving to a new destination - His own throne, and the overcomers will escort Him. `For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord, Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.` (1 Thess. 4: 14 & 17) Yes, that is called the rapture. We are not really "escorting" Jesus to Heaven. He is coming to retrieve us and bring us to Heaven (John 14:1-3). Quote When God created the heavens and the earth, He established different realms with positions of authority – the third heaven, the Universe & the earth. These are all within God`s great kingdom rule and were established by the Lord Jesus Christ, `For by Him, (Christ) all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.` (Col. 1: 16) God is not the author of confusion; everything He does is ordered and controlled. The divine pattern of the heavenlies will survive time, into eternity. It will not be changed, only those which exercise authority in each realm. There is a descending order of authority instituted – heaven and earth, involving thrones, dominions, principalities and powers. And if that position needed to be filled, how do you know it hasn't already been filled? I mean, if God is not the author of confusion, then why would he tolerate confusion and disorder by leaving Lucifer's position unfilled until someone unknown time in the future? Whey would not not Lucifer's position filled immediately since God is a God of order and doesn't tolerate disorder? Quote I said -Authority & power in the third heaven, has never been filled, as no angel or person, is worthy. “Who is worthy to open the scroll and to loose its seals?” And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or to look at it.` (Rev. 5: 3) No one in heaven or earth or under the earth, no one anywhere, is worthy to receive the great authority and power to execute the Father`s commands written upon the symbolic scroll. No one that is, till Jesus prevailed against the enemy and received the authority and power `to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals.` (Rev. 5: 5) Jesus prevailed over the enemy at His death and resurrection. But that passage in Revelation 5 has nothing to do with filling the position vacated by Lucifer when He rebelled against God. Lucifer did not hold the position that is filled by Jesus. So you are mistaken in applying this to that issue. And the Bible doesn't anywhere say that the position of Lucifer needs to be filled by any other angel, or that Heaven is in disorder because of the loss of Satan and 1/3 of the angels of Heaven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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