Matthew 24: Rapture, Second Coming or Both?

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

This isn't the Seals, they start in chapter 6. John wept because he thought there could be no one worthy to open the Seals which bring forth the Day of the Lord, thus Jesus could never return to Earth. Of course John knew all of this had to come to pass if Jesus' Second Coming was to come to pass. Jesus was there all along, like I said, by your own words, if Jesus was not in the Throne room then he was not anywhere, on earth, in heaven or under earth. The Gist is, John was looking for a man, the Vision showed Jesus as a Lamb standing in the Throne Room of God.

John certainly knew that to open the seals so the book could be opened was of GREAT importance. Perhaps he did not know that this was the lease document for our world, and that if no one had ever been found worthy, then Satan would forever remain the god of this world. But maybe he did know it. John does not tell us.

No, this is not the seals, but it is the CONTEXT for the seals: a concept that seems foreign to you. You attempt to pick a meaning for the first seal, buy pulling it completely out of its context, so end up with nonsense. The TRUTH IS, chapters 4 & 5 show us TIMING. You wish go IGNORE God's timing and come up with your own.

READERS BEWARE: anyone can make the bible say anything if they are willing to pull verses out of their context.

The context of the first seal is what we read in chapters 4 & 5 that show us TIMING information. Just before Jesus takes the book into His own hands, what happened? HE JUST ASCENDED INTO HEAVEN. This absolutely gives us the timing of the first seal.

Adam Clark Commentary:

Verse 2. A white horse
Supposed to represent the Gospel system, and pointing out its excellence, swiftness, and purity.

He that sat on him
Supposed to represent Jesus Christ.

A bow
The preaching of the Gospel, darting conviction into the hearts of sinners.

A crown
The emblem of the kingdom which Christ is to establish on earth.

Conquering, and to conquer.
Overcoming and confounding the Jews first, and then the Gentiles; spreading more and more the doctrine and influence of the cross over the face of the earth.

John Gill Commentary:

And I saw, and behold a white horse…
Representing the ministration of the Gospel in the times of the apostles, which were just now finishing, John being the last of them, who saw this vision; and the "horse" being a swift, majestic, and warlike creature, and fearless of opposition and war, may design the swift progress of the Gospel in the world, the majesty, power, and authority with which it came, and opposition it met with, and which was bore down before it; and its "white" colour may denote the purity of Gospel truths, the peace it proclaims, the joy brings, and the triumph that attends it, on account of victories obtained by it, and which is afterwards suggested: white horses were used in triumphs, in token of victory ^F14; a white horse, in a dream, is a good sign with the Jews...

Matthew Henry Commentary:

our Lord Redeemer was sure of the victory and a glorious triumph, and he rides on the white horse of a pure but despised gospel, with great swiftness through the world. (2.) He had a bow in his hand. The convictions impressed by the word of God are sharp arrows, they reach at a distance; and, though the ministers of the word draw the bow at a venture, God can and will direct it to the joints of the harness. This bow, in the hand of Christ, abides in strength, and, like that of Jonathan, never returns empty. (3.) A crown was given him, importing that all who receive the gospel must receive Christ as a king, and must be his loyal and obedient subjects; he will be glorified in the success of the gospel. When Christ was going to war, one would think a helmet had been more proper than a crown; but a crown is given him as the earnest and emblem of victory. (4.) He went forth conquering, and to conquer. As long as the church continues militant Christ will be conquering;

People's New Testament Commentary:

The preponderance of interpretation is in favor of the view that the symbol signifies the conquests of Christ, either in person or through the gospel.

Ellicott's Commentary:

Is not the vision the reflex of the hopes of early Christian thought? It is the symbol of Christian victory. It was thus their hopes saw Christ: though ascended He went forth in spiritual power conquering. They were right in their faith, and wrong in their expectation. Right in their faith: He went forth conquering, and He would conquer.

I will post this quickly for there is a thunderstorm and my computer may shut off!

Matthew Poole's Commentary:
Some, by this white horse, understand the gospel...  (He did not agree: thinking it was Rome)

Meyer's NT Commentary:
...On white horses, therefore, appear not only Christ himself, but also his hosts triumphing with him.

Yet in the one case we stand, of course, at the glorious end of the entire development of the kingdom of Christ, while here the Lord first goes forth to bring about that end; but just because only he can go forth to conquer, who is already a victor...

Thus the triumphing image of Christ at the beginning of all the visions, proceeding from the book of fate, is in harmony with the fundamental idea and paracletic tendency of the entire Apoc....

...all the expositors, who understand by the white horse the Church, and that, too, the apostolic primitive Church, in its purity and peaceful condition prior to persecutions...

Luthardt: “That is, the Word of God, which was the first in the history of N. T. times to pass victoriously through the world, and whose words flew far like arrows, and penetrated the heart...

Some of these picture the white horse and rider as Christ Himself, while others picture The GOSPEL of Christ - which I believe is more accurate. In 32 AD Christ ascended, but just before He did, gave the CHURCH the great commission: take the Gospel to the ends of the earth. Therefore the only common sense answer to the first seal is that it is the GOSPEL of our Lord Jesus Christ. Now, looking back on almost 2000 years, has the church been victorous? I would say YES! There is no where on the earth today that the gospel cannot be heard or found, in some form or another. Yet, there is still much work that remains: there are untold millions who still have not heard the simple Gospel.

Some commentators are lost in the past and could think only of Rome.

Edited July 8, 2017 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

 

16 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Next, Jesus saw absolutely NOT FOUND in that first search John watched. that is proven by what he wrote, "no man was found." As Jesus put it to me: "that search ended in failure." Again, your theory does not answer this question, or as to WHY the Holy Spirit was there in chapter 4.

The Holy Spirit is EVERYWHERE........he is omnipresent so why wouldn't he be in Heaven and on Earth at the same time?

In one aspect, He is certainly everywhere at once: I am convinced He is the very impulses in our brain that cause the synapses to function. After all, He knows our every thought. I am convinced He is holding every atom in our universe together, so yes, He is everwhere. Yet, what did happened when Jesus was baptized?  The same Holy Spirit what a moment before was everywhere in the universe was suddenly there and came upon Jesus "without measure." Does that mean that at that moment He was NOT everywhere else? Not at all.

John 14: ²⁶ But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Does not this verse give us the idea that the Holy Spirit was somewhere, but would be sent from that somewhere to earth?

Rev. 5:... which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Does not this give us the very same impression: that He was somewhere, but would be SENT from that somewhere to earth? Then when we SEE HIM in the throne room of heaven in chapter 4, we understand He was sent FROM THERE to earth.

I know the truth does not fit with your theories, but that is on you. I am only showing what is written and the very meaning of what is written.  I write of so the readers can get this prospective of these verses.

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The Anti-Christ RENEGES at the Midway point of the Final week. Thus the Seals bring forth the BEAST which mean he Conquers Israel. I am passing out knowledge I wish I could have gotten without studying. Take your blessing and run with it. 

I understand completely: you entirely miss the intent of the Author on the first seals, so everything from that point on is nonsense. I got it.

FOR THE READERS: He is right in the first sentence: the Antichrist Beast will be revealed at the midpoint by entering the Holy of Holies in the temple and declaring He is God, thereby stopping the daily Sacrifices - the event that marks the exact midpoint of the week. Paul tells us this.

The rest of this post is nonsense: the seals are just what "seal" means: these are SEALS sealing a document. From history we learn they used scrolls back then. So this was most likely a scroll sealed with seven seals, or else 7 scrolls, rolled up one inside the other and each with a seal. In any case, NOTHING can be read on the main scroll until all the seals have been broken or opened. That is just the way scrolls work.  NOTHING in the main scroll will be read or seen by John until chapter 8, where the 7th and final seal is opened. This shows us that the trumpet judgments are written INSIDE the scroll. AT the 7th trumpet we find that the Kingdoms of the world are taken from Satan, who usurped them from Adam, and given to Jesus, the rightful owner. There, we know that if no one was ever found worthy to break the seals, Satan would remain the god of this world. Do you see how incredibly important it was for someone to finally destroy death and raise from the dead - and thereby become worthy to break the seal and begin the ended for Satan?

Therefore the seals do not "bring forth" the beast. The breaking of the seals makes it POSSIBLE for God to bring the trumpet judgments which spell Satan's doom. When the 7th trumpet is sounded, Michael will go after him to cast him DOWN. No longer will Satan reign over the kingdoms of the earth. Thank God forever and ever!

Neither do the seals "mean he conquers Israel." That also is nonsense.

For the readers: always keep in mind, the seals are sealing a document. That is their PURPOSE: to keep anyone except the authorized person (without a doubt, someone who raises from the dead to live evermore) from getting this scroll into their hands and breaking the seals without proper authorization. 

However, we do see that when a seal is broken or opened, events take place: without a doubt, events known to God from the beginning.

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

 

18 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I can assure you, that is not the way Jesus sees them!

 

You mean that's not the way you see them. Jesus doesn't change.

I meant what I said, and said what I meant: it is truth: 100%. I know how Jesus sees them, because He told me. The fact that you can't see it tells us that you have very strong preconceptions that prevent you from seeing. OF COURSE Jesus does not change! He showed us a throne room where He was NOT IN; a search to find one worthy that ended in failure, and the Holy Spirit in the throne room, when we would expect Him to be sent down. This is an EXACT PICTURE of the throne room while Jesus was on earth, and before He rose from the Dead.

It is sad preconceptions prevent you from seeing this.

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Again, I have covered this, and answered it. What I stated should put this to rest for good.

Not when you state things that turn out to be only shadows of untruth. I stated exactly what is written. It is absolute: John did not see Jesus in the throne room in chapter 4. It was not until chapter 5 that Jesus suddenly showed up.  As Jesus told me in words I heard and understood: "It shows the movement of time."

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Jesus was in the Throne room all the Time.

Are you telling us that Jesus, after He was born of a virgin and took on the flesh of mankind, could be two places and once? The Church world understands that He laid aside His Godly attributes when He took on flesh.

In other words, just in case you miss the meaning, during the 32 or 33 years He was on the earth, HE WAS NOT IN HEAVEN physically.

(This is not to say that God the father was not there and the Holy Spirit was not there.)

Some Bible readers assume that the Spirit’s activity in Scripture is limited to the New Testament. But actually He is just as active in the Old Testament:

This is a good sidestep to avoid the question. You are free to continue down the path of nonsense, pulling verses out of context, and imagining you have truth. The truth is, the first seals were opened as soon as Jesus ascended and got the book into His hands. No amount of disagreeing will change this truth.

Edited July 8, 2017 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

19 hours ago, Pudgenik said:

I would say no one wants to be left here. Of course we want to be with God. 

The philosophy of the pre trib isn't cut and dry. It is only a guess or theory. But it has been preached for years as absolute truth.

Personally, I find the teaching selfish. Or at least the churches I've been invited to, and others sent to. Those who believe in it are only worried about themselves. 

Where is the brothers keeper in that thinking. The Catholics are in the same boat, with some new teachings that are being spred. 

In both cases, I'm very concerned.

Of course you know, God could have made this very plain, but it seems He chose not to. My only suggestion is that you first DON'T bypass Acts 1 and 2, then you mediate on Paul's rapture scriptures. God has always communicated with people, and He has not changed. In fact, Jesus said that He would build His church on revealed knowledge, the very way that Peter KNEW Jesus was the Christ. 

Next, you should know, God is always very actively at work keeping church doctrine straight for those who will listen. He pulled the church out of the dark ages by revealing truth to men like Martin Luther. He is still VERY capable of keeping doctrines in line with His word. He taught me, and I learned, because I spent a long time (years) reading and meditating on Revelation and other end time scripture, NOT TRYING to use human understanding at all. In fact, just the opposite: I told God I would come with an open slate, knowing NOTHING unless He taught me. So I laid aside any preconceptions and waiting on Him. It took 3 years before He spoke. I had probably read Revelation hundreds of times be then.  What I learned was that GOD is pretrib. It is not guess work to know. In 1 Thes. 5, Paul tells us the timing; but you won't get it with casual reading.

You can get pretrib from 2 thes 2, also, but again not with casual reading. So many over the past years have just read Matthew 24 casually and determined without further study that that gathering was the rapture. It seems, God cannot have a gathering without people jumping on it with both feet, declaring it must be the rapture!

Pretrib is not pretrib out of fear: pretrib is pretrib because of Scripture. Some people put a lot of weight on ONE SCRIPTURE, such as Matthew 24. It is wiser to put equal weight on all end times scriptures.

Therefore, I hope you will end your concern. Just be ready and watching for Him, as if He could come NOW.

 

[iamlamad]

20 hours ago, Pudgenik said:

Did i say God's Word was wrong, nope. Only your interpretation  of it

No, but you hinted very strongly that the scriptures do not tell us the rapture will be pretrib. They DO and they are not wrong.

[iamlamad]

20 hours ago, Pudgenik said:

But what if you missed something , what if you are wrong. Are you prepared for the alternative

Think about Paul: Jesus gave him the gospel face to face, so to speak, and Paul did NOT go up to Jerusalem and check to see if he was right. He even had the nerve to say that we would all be judged by HIS gospel. In other words, he had ZERO doubt of His revelation.

When one receives something from revelation out of heaven, they just know it. However, millions never spend the time to get revealed knowledge, so all they have is human reasoning. That is why we have so many denominations, all with different doctrine! I guess then, you must ask this question of them, not me.

Both sides of this are shown in Luke 21:36: there Is an escape, but it seems from this verse, many will not take it. The escape is the rapture. While those living in darkness get left behind for the "sudden destruction"start of the Day of the Lord,  those living in the light of the gospel will get raptured and will get to live together with Him.

Are the Christians that are being beheaded these days prepared? It seems they are, for they choose to die rather than give up Jesus. If this kind of persecution comes to the US before Jesus comes, I think the church here will be just as prepared, for HE is the same the world around.

[iamlamad]

21 hours ago, firestormx said:

Do you see Joel 2:31 as the same thing as Matthew 24:29-31 and the sixth seal? I ask because I do see them as the same thing and Joel 2:31 clearly and bluntly says this event must happen BEFORE the day of the Lord and Matthew 24:29-31 says this event happens before we are gathered to be with Jesus. Just trying to understand how you see these verses ( especially Joel 2:31 ) fitting into this statement above.

No, not at all. The Joel 2 signs for the DAY line up with the 6th seal signs. The Joel 3 signs line up with the Matthew 24 signs. These are two different signs for two different purposes: the first is the sign for the coming Day of the Lord. The second sign will be the sign for His coming. These two will be over 7 years apart.

When Jesus comes, as shown in Rev. 19, there will be DARKNESS around the planet. His coming will be as lightning lights up the sky. HOW darkness? Because the sun, the moon and the stars will be DARK. This is simply different than a blood red moon that does reflect the sun's light, meaning the sun is still visible. For example, this sign, for the coming of the Day, could be eclipses.