Matthew 24: Rapture, Second Coming or Both?

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, fixerupper said:

The NIV has is better and closer to being correct.  The one who hold's it back...will....until.....HE is taken out of the way.

OPTIONS.  A military force.  A ruler or king like Abu bakr al-baghdadi.  An Angelic being like Michael.  And the least most likely options, the general hindrance, i.e. Roman Empire and the holy spirit.

What or who had the power to hold back Satan? There only one power qualified: God. The man of sin who will turn Beast is all Satan's doing. Only God can restrain Satan and hell.  I am convinced it is the Holy Spirit working through the church. The Holy Spirit cannot do it on His own; He needs OUR authority.  I know, some commentators thought it was the Roman Empire.  They were wrong.

 

2 hours ago, fixerupper said:

What detains him? I'm not sure.  I'll take a guess and say baghdadi!  One could make a pretty good argument the grammar suggest that what detains him is AN APOSTASY.  

Sorry, but it is GOOD that restrains evil. Evil cannot restrain evil.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, fixerupper said:

That's correct the phases of the moon or any Jewish traditions.
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

There are two reasons why the moon appears red even today.  When it first rises or sets the curvature of the earth causes our viewing of it to be through a much longer distance through the particles of the earth's spheres.  The more dense the atmosphere the more the particles scatter away the blue/green light and lets the red light go straight through. When it's high in the sky we view it through much less of a distance through those spheres and it doesn't appear red. It's the particles in those spheres both natural and manmade that cause its appearance to be red.  In the beginning of tribulation the moon will appear red all the time and as tribulation progresses you won't be able to see it hardly at all.

The moon and stars as well will then fade more as the tribulation progresses. Toward the end of tribulation there will be so much stuff emitted into the atmosphere that we won't see the stars at all in places or dim glow from the moon above those spheres with pollution.

The same is true about the sun.  In Revelation 6 the sun became black as sackcloth of hair.  In Mathew 24:29 the sun is darkened.  Sackcloth is a coarse cloth that you can see through a bit.  That's different than a sun that is darkened or can't see at all like on a cloudy day.  One is the beginning of tribulation, the other the end.

Good job! These are TWO separate signs for TWO different events: At the 6th seal it will be the sign for the Day of the Lord. In Matthew 24 and Joel 3, it will be the sign for the coming of Jesus Christ, as shown in Rev. 19. And these two signs are different. Just before Jesus comes, DARKNESS will be on the earth - meaning no sun and no moon.

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, firestormx said:

I have never considered the phases of the moon in regards to these verses. I have always believed the event in Matt 24 was the same as the 6th seal and Joel 2:31. What about the 4th trumpet? It is also very similar to the event described in Matt 24:29. Are you saying that all of these events are different? That the almost same event will happen 4 times? That it will happen once as it says In Joel 2:31, once in Matthew 24:29, once for the 6th seal and then again with the 4th trumpet? If you could explain where Joel 2:31 which clearly states will happen before the day of the lord, and Matt 24:29 which happens before the sign of Christ appears and how they fit into revelation , then I would be grateful. If you covered this and I missed it then I apologize please point me to the correct post and I will reread it. For clarity on my position I believe the 6th seal and the 4th trumpet are 2 different events With the event in Joel, Matthew and the 6th seal all describing the same event as seen by 3 different people. I could be wrong, as I said, the phases of the moon has never once occurred to me. 

If you read Joel 2 and then Joel 3, he shows us both times the signs will come. Joel 2 and the 6th seal are the same sign. Joel 3 and Matthew 24 are the same sign. They will be separated by over 7 years.

[fixerupper]

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What or who had the power to hold back Satan?

Who says this has anything to do with holding back Satan?  It does have something to do with someone who "opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, AND "the condotion of lawlessness, which is a widespread condition in the Arab Middle-East.  It's the condition of lawlessness being held back.  So when Paul said, "And now ye know WHAT withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time."  The antecedant to "WHAT WITHHOLDS" is an APOTASY.  In other words, APOSTASY is what the Thessalonian's already knew," WHAT withholdeth."  It's an apostasy that withholds the man of sin.  

"...only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."

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There only one power qualified: God. The man of sin who will turn Beast is all Satan's doing. Only God can restrain Satan and hell.  I am convinced it is the Holy Spirit working through the church. The Holy Spirit cannot do it on His own; He needs OUR authority.  I know, some commentators thought it was the Roman Empire.  They were wrong.

Man can restrain evil, and evil can restrain evil.  Evil does battle against itself.  Look at what's going on in Syria right now.  But that doesn't matter.  If the 'he' of verse 7 is the holy spirit, it would be clearly implied. There's no reason to consider it in the text.  And by all means, the church isn't implied in the text whatsoever. Other than an 'apostasy' holding back the man of sin, I'm not sure what or who has to be taken out of the way before the man of sin is revealed.   It's a person more likely.   

Quote

Sorry, but it is GOOD that restrains evil. Evil cannot restrain evil.

I'm not convinced the passage is saying that evil is being restrained.  It does imply that the 'condition of lawlessness' is restrained.

Edited July 2, 2017 by fixerupper

[Swords99]

22 minutes ago, fixerupper said:

Who says this has anything to do with holding back Satan?  It does have something to do with someone who "opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, AND "the condotion of lawlessness, which is a widespread condition in the Arab Middle-East.  It's the condition of lawlessness being held back.  So when Paul said, "And now ye know WHAT withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time."  The antecedant to "WHAT WITHHOLDS" is an APOTASY.  In other words, APOSTASY is what the Thessalonian's already knew," WHAT withholdeth."  It's an apostasy that withholds the man of sin.  

"...only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."

Man can restrain evil, and evil can restrain evil.  Evil does battle against itself.  Look at what's going on in Syria right now.  But that doesn't matter.  If the 'he' of verse 7 is the holy spirit, it would be clearly implied. There's no reason to consider it in the text.  And by all means, the church isn't implied in the text whatsoever. Other than an 'apostasy' holding back the man of sin, I'm not sure what or who has to be taken out of the way before the man of sin is revealed.   It's a person more likely.   

Sorry, but it is GOOD that restrains evil. Evil cannot restrain evil.

I'm not convinced the passage is saying that evil is being restrained.  It does imply that the 'condition of lawlessness' is restrained.

Christians and the Holy Spirit are the restrainers. When Christians are raptured, the world will be in utter chaos, i.e. Tribulation.

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, inchrist said:

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

taken out of the way.

The word "taken" is not even in the text. 

 

The fact you bringing in something that is added to the word of God, is suspect.

 

You basing your understanding on a faulty translation.

It is really not that bad a translation. This Greek word is translated as:

come to pass (82x),  so "come to pass" "out of the way."

be made (69x),   so "be made" "out of the way"

 become (47x),   so "become" out of the way"

Or, if you please, to become out of the midst.

Green's literal:  until it comes out of the midst.

Smith Translation 1876: till he be out of the midst.

Youngs: till he may be out of the way,

Bishops 1568: be taken out of the way.

Wycliff 1382:  til he be do awei.

Weymouth says "is removed"

English majority text:  until one arises from out of [the] midst.

Remember Strong's definition of the Greek "Apo:" where a part of a whole is removed. Could we say is become out of the midst?

Is "taken" so far removed from "be made? Is "taken out of the way" so far removed from "be made" out of the midst?

You are making a mountain out of a mole hill.

11 hours ago, inchrist said:

Right so Paul, without any clue or warning to his readers, expected them and us to immediately perceive the meaning of this subtle changes of genders to be the Holy Spirit?

 

Then how could Paul have expected his Thessalonian friends to have understood his meaning, since Paul did such a great job in masking who he is talking about?

 

Paul wrote, "and now you know." Suppose you are one of the first readers and you DON'T know. You would think, WHAT? How do I know, Paul? They would then read it over and over again, perhaps backing up verse by verse to find something that has "become" "out of the midst." My guess is, most of them would stop at verse three and say "ahah!"

Speaking of genders, can you explain how a "falling away" could have ANY "gender" much less two. Can you come up with ANYTHING AT ALL to explain why Paul used two different genders to explain one restrainer?

11 hours ago, inchrist said:

o anomoj (the lawless one) and  o katecwn (restrainer) are both in the nominative case which is to say that they are both the subject of the same identity.

So far your Greek has been less than helpful. I disagree. No other Greek scholar has come up with this theory that I have ever read.

 

11 hours ago, inchrist said:

Is the complete opposite of taken out of the way.

If something is "taken out of the way" it most certainly has become out of the way. If something has become out of the way, it could have done so of its own power, but it could have become by an external power. it is not the complete opposite.

 

11 hours ago, inchrist said:

Hence back to the problem, Paul never used the word taken, you adding that to the scripture, masked his thoughts according to you, so no marker it is the holy spirit but my understanding is poor?

I know you are trying very hard to prove my understanding faulty. It won't work.  There have been many Greek experts that have translated these words. "Taken" speaks of an outside force. Become COULD BE an outside force.  "Be made" from Strongs speaks of an outside force. So therefore, "taken" is really NOT a bad translation, as shown by so many that used it.

Edited July 2, 2017 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Swords99 said:

Christians and the Holy Spirit are the restrainers. When Christians are raptured, the world will be in utter chaos, i.e. Tribulation.

Absolutely! Imagine a world with NO Godly influence.

[fixerupper]

3 hours ago, Swords99 said:

Christians and the Holy Spirit are the restrainers. When Christians are raptured, the world will be in utter chaos, i.e. Tribulation.

How would Christians and the holy spirit DETAIN or hold back the emergence of the man of sin?  How is it possible?  

The man of sin isn't a global dictator.  The 'man of sin' may even be the false prophet in 2 Thes. 2.  There's more than ONE evil end-time man coming.  

The word detain is used twice.  Withholdeth and letteth are the same word.  Before Paul says, "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."

He says,"Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

This means that what's holding back the man of sin is an apostasy.  The question then becomes, "who or what is it that needs to be taken out of the way for the evil one to come?"

I say Baghdadi needs to be taken out of the way.  When he's gone, the man of sin, whoever he may be will fill the void.  The region of the Middle-East esp. Iraq and region will unite into some sort of 10/7 alliance.  The region is currently in the prophesied apostasy.   

Edited July 2, 2017 by fixerupper

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, fixerupper said:

Who says this has anything to do with holding back Satan?  It does have something to do with someone who "opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God,

Almost every bible student knows that it will be the power of Satan behind the Beast of chapter 13.  Do you not know this?

By the way, "apo" from "Apostasy" has the meaning of removing a part of the whole from the rest of the whole - and all the while those left of the whole and not taken are "stationary." (Stasia - this is the second part of apostasia.)

Lawlessness is evil. You really do know this.

[fixerupper]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Almost every bible student knows that it will be the power of Satan behind the Beast of chapter 13.  Do you not know this?

By the way, "apo" from "Apostasy" has the meaning of removing a part of the whole from the rest of the whole - and all the while those left of the whole and not taken are "stationary." (Stasia - this is the second part of apostasia.)

Lawlessness is evil. You really do know this.

Lawlesness is evil, but it means without law.  It's only one aspect of evil as IT emcompasses much more.

Lawlesness is the condition without law

because ignorant of it

because of violating it

contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G458&t=KJV

Evil is...

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G4190&t=KJV

The word WICKED is often the word evil.

But the word WICKED IN VERSE 8 "the wicked one" isn't the word evil.  It has a more 'lawless' tone to it...... 

destitute of (the Mosaic) law

of the Gentiles

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G459&t=KJV

So explain to me how 2 Thes. 2 involves Christians, AND how Christians can hinder the man of sin?

The Mid_East is the region of apostasy.  Nearly every Christian is GONE!  Christians were never a threat to the Muslims in the region.  I would not say that Christians in the Mid-East region hindered anything they were so outnumbered and really had no influence on anything.

I know some of you are globalist and think this apostasy began centuries ago.  Most of you believe this apostasy is global and involves Christians but it doesn't.

Edited July 2, 2017 by fixerupper