Matthew 24: Rapture, Second Coming or Both?

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, Swords99 said:

There is a lot of debate on this. But when we look at the big picture, Paul is dealing with the Body of Christ being taken out before this final 7 years of wrath comes in. He says in 2 Thess 2:7.

"…only he who now letteth (hindereth) will let (hinder) until he be taken out of the way."

 The "he" in "he who now hindereth," the indwelling Holy Spirit, is the same Spirit  in verse 6 "will hinder." This hindering work of the Holy Spirit is such that until the Body of Christ is gone, it’s going to be like a dam in the river. And the iniquity is just piling up and piling up,  like a large reservoir.

 If the Holy Spirit is working in the believer today to withstand the forces of wickedness, then as soon as he is taken out, it will be like a floodgate of wickedness that will come over the world. Cant separate the believer and the Holy Spirit who indwells the believer.

Well said.

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, fixerupper said:

The setting in verses 3-7 is all about the man of sin, what holds him and what brings him on.  What makes you think the one who hindereth is the holy spirit when the context and antecedent is the man of sin?  Christians are implied UP TO verse 3a and that's it.  The holy spirit isn't part of this evil in any way.

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3a Let no man deceive you by any means:

for that day shall not come, (parousia) except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

Believers are NOT part of the mystery of iniquity.  The passage clearly states that the 'parousia and the gathering' DO NOT TAKE PLACE until there's an apostasy and the man of sin revealed. And by all means, don't apply the church or Christians to any of this. This passage, v.3a-12, is all about the man of sin and his followers.

" The passage clearly states that the 'parousia and the gathering' DO NOT TAKE PLACE until there's an apostasy "

No, people IMAGINE that is what is said, but it really is not.

The THEME: the gathering.

Paul's purpose: they imagined that they were IN the Day of the Lord: that it had some and they were now in it. Paul's purpose is to show them they are NOT "in" the day of the Lord, and that it did not previously start.  So this is the SECONDARY them: how they can know the Day of the Lord has not come, and they are not in it.

How does the Gathering fit with Day of the Lord? These people were VERY upset. It just makes sense that the reason WHY they were so upset was that Paul had taught them that the gathering would be BEFORE the start of the DAY. They wrote to Paul and this is Paul's answer to them. 

If Paul had taught them that the gathering would be 7 years into the Day (the Day starting at the 6th seal as John shows us) Why would they be upset? Things were going just as Paul had taught. They only had to wait a certain and known period of time. But the problem with this theory, first they WERE very upset, and second, from Paul's first letter we know the rapture will be the trigger for the start of the DAY.

So HOW does Paul proceed to convince them they are NOT in the "Day of the Lord." He tells them what sign to look for to KNOW they would be in the day of the Lord: if they see the man of sin revealed, they will then KNOW the Day has started and they are IN IT.

But there is one caveat: something has to happen first before the man of sin can be revealed. Paul instructs them that there is a restraining that is preventing the man of sin from being revealed (As the Beast). But once this restraining force is removed, THEN (and only then) can the man of sin be revealed.

Now, here is the key: if we look in verse 3b, in Paul's argument, the man of sin IS REVEALED. To "Be" revealed, means that at some moment previous, he WAS revealed - and this means that some time previous the one restraining was moved out of the way. or became "out of the midst."

Therefore, SOMETHING in verse 3a must be something removed from the midst, taken out of the way, or became out of the midst." There is nothing in verse 3a that even comes close except the word Apostasia. This word then, absolutely MUST be what Paul was taking about in verses 6-8 of some force that has been hindering removed or become out of the midst.

This is a compound word: Apo and Stasia. From the Stasia part, we get the English word Stationary or not moving.

For Apo Strongs tells us "Separation: of the separation of a part from the whole; where of a whole some part is taken: "

Does this not define the rapture? Only a part is taken, and taken instantly while everyone else is stationary.

Can common sense assist us here? If Paul is meaning the gathering (the very theme of this passage) then the gathering would be the body of Christ on earth (or most of the body). And that body of Christ shares the ANOINTING of the Holy Spirit - the very Holy Spirit they were told to wait on, for when He came, He would bring POWER.

We have then, an anointed body of Christ on earth, anointed with POWER from the Holy Spirit. Does it not make sense that if the church is removed, SO IS THE POWER that they were anointed with?

Finally, Paul wrote "and now you KNOW who is that one who is restraining...."

Well, Paul, HOW do we know? His answer, if we could here him would be: just back up verse by verse and look for something being removed (becoming from the midst.) We find that with the word Apostasia in verse three, where the man of sin IS REVEALED.

Edited July 3, 2017 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, inchrist said:

Ok lets look at the big picture, there is even a hebrew equivalent with the exact same meaning as  the Greek Word Ginomai. 

hāyāh and it is used 3,500 times in the Old Testament and in all places it means to become or be and never removal.

That means 672 + 3500 = 4172, that gives you 0.002396%  of being correct.

The bigger picture is this, the Thessalonians were being deceived by reports claiming the coming of the Lord and our gathering. You now want me to believe that Paul is at a 100% guaranteed not going to use the correct word for removal or take away  exairo but instead is going to from a NT usage of a completely different word and meaning and change it at chance of 0.148809 or from an entire biblical usage of 0.002396% to correct the false reports they have been receiving?

Do you understand the likelihood of this happening is next to zero? Literally next to zero 0.1488809% or .002396% chance of that actually happening?

That paul would of 99.99 % have used   exairo , if the entent of the verse was removal or taking away.

You are deceiving yourself and others with those biblical statistics, if you think that is what Paul meant.

These are the words Paul used. We work with what we are given. Sorry, but your theories do not fit the overall picture. Ours does, and even using the dictionary definitions.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Davida said:

I agree!

Hi Davida! Thanks for jumping in!

[Swords99]

13 minutes ago, Davida said:

Hey!    Best be satisfied to make your case for others who will read it who are undecided, as the ones on this thread opposed to the pre-trib seem pretty stubbornly cemented in their beliefs. Just want to say -I give thanks to the Lord for the Restrainer in us because without Him there would be no hope for us and we would be crushed as the adversary is too powerful a foe but we are under the shelter of the Almighty! Glory & Praise the LORD GOD our Heavenly Father, to the Blessed Son our Lord Jesus Christ and to the Holy Spirit! I would not want to be here once the Restrainer/the bride of Christ is removed.

John 14: 16 I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

Footnotes:

John 14:16 Gr Paracletos, one called alongside to help; or Comforter, Advocate, Intercessor

Amen!

[Swords99]

19 minutes ago, Davida said:

Sorry , I think that you do not understand. This is the Restrainer-the helper, the Holy Spirit. HE stays with the Bride.  He is the Holy Spirit that is in the true believers , it is the Restrainer that is holding back the man of lawlessness -the Anti-Christ.  The Restrainer will be removed when the Bride of Christ is raptured- then the Tribulation will begin.

2 Thess 2:6 , 7 "5Do you not remember that I told you these things while I was still with you? 6And you know what is now restraining him, so that he will be revealed at the proper time. 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who now restrains it will continue until he is taken out of the way.…"

I do have one question. I have always believed that the restrainer is both the Holy Spirit AND the born again Believer in Christ and that the Holy Spirit will remain here during the Tribulation, because if the Holy Spirit is removed at the rapture, then how will those left behind be saved?

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, inchrist said:

You going to need all the help you can get....with a less than 1 % chance of you using a word correctly .....trust me you need all the help

Thanks for caring! I appreciate that. But really, I am not worried.  Those percentages are only your human reasoning.  Many bible translators see it my way. (Or I see it their way.)

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Swords99 said:

I do have one question. I have always believed that the restrainer is both the Holy Spirit AND the born again Believer in Christ and that the Holy Spirit will remain here during the Tribulation, because if the Holy Spirit is removed at the rapture, then how will those left behind be saved?

It is very simple: The Holy Spirit came to anoint all believers with power. (See Acts 1) The disciples were born again before the day of Pentecost, when Jesus breathed on them and said "receive..."  People came to God all during the Old Covenant without this aspect of the Holy Spirit. Since He came for the church, it makes sense when the church is taken up, then in the respect that He came, He will go, and things will be just as they were before the day of Pentecost. People can be born again, but they will not receive the mighty baptism in the Holy Spirit that came at Pentecost. In other words, He will still be here to indwell any believers. But He will NOT be here with His powerful anointing. That came at Pentecost and will leave with the rapture.

The sad thing is, many believers no nothing or very little about this anointing for power.

Edited July 3, 2017 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Davida said:

3 hours ago, inchrist said:

How is that amen?

John 14: 16 I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 

Not removed.

Sorry , I think that you do not understand. This is the Restrainer-the helper, the Holy Spirit. HE stays with the Bride.  He is the Holy Spirit that is in the true believers , it is the Restrainer that is holding back the man of lawlessness -the Anti-Christ.  The Restrainer will be removed when the Bride of Christ is raptured- then the Tribulation will begin.

Inchrist is correct here: the Holy Spirit in this respect - as the Helper a believer gets when born again  - will still be here for any new believers. But this is really not what He came for on the Day of Pentecost: He came then to give believers POWER. See Acts 1. He came so believers to be baptized in the Holy Spirit. When He leaves with the church, it will be only in that repspect: the mighty baptism in the Holy Spirit will not be available. If you note carefully, the disciples were born again before the day of Pentecost.

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, inchrist said:

So why are you working with the meaning of exairo ????

please provide me the dictionary use of the word of ginomai again? Find me where it states removal.

sorry but I would rather trust 99.99% ratio than a less than 1% ratio of you actually being correct.

and no, your use of imaginations really doesnt fit one bit actually.... In fact I worked it out mathematically for you....your theory has a less than 1% chance of being correct....which is not a suprise considering how you violate the greeks grammar and exegesis rules.....

It is an absolute fact: words have more than one meaning. It is clear that Paul knew this.