Principles of Interpretation - Hermeneutics

[Guest shiloh357]

1 hour ago, Marilyn C said:

Just to read God`s word according to rules of literature can be as the Pharisees, who completely missed God`s heart revealing His Son and His desire for changed hearts.

That is nonsense.  No one is suggesting that we read the Bible only according to the rules of literature.   But those rules, keep us grounded, and they keep us from fanciful, sensationalist approaches to the Bible.  Those rules also provide a fence to protect us from dangerous doctrines that exist in cults like the Mormons, JW's and the SDA cult, as well.   The most successful cults in the world are the ones who use the Bible.

The Pharisees problem wasn't that they only read the Bible from the standpoint of rules.   The pharisaic problem stemmed from a departure of  the rules of proper interpretation.   They were interpreting Scripture to justify things like taking revenge, sexual lust, greed, adultery and frivolous divorce.  They were the opposite of someone who follows the proper rules of hermeneutics.

So no, using hermeneutics is not going to turn anyone into Pharisees.  It will turn them into the opposite of what the Pharisees were.  Hermeneutics lead us to the true message of Scripture, not away from it.

[Marilyn C]

42 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

We disagree because you are wrong and you really don't know much about hermeneutics.  Hermeneutics is what it is, not what you want it to be.   The rules of hermeneutics should not be confused with rules of exegesis, which is what you're confusing.  The rules of exegesis apply to Scripture and follow hermeneutics.

The mind and intellect play a huge role in cooperating with the Holy Spirit.  God created our mind and expects us to use it in the study of His word.   The Holy Spirit isn't at all disconnected from the intellectual processes like Hermeneutics or exegesis.   It is because people place such a low premium on the intellectual side of Bible study that we end up with false doctrines, much of which is rooted in a lack of hermeneutic study.

The study of Scripture is as much an intellectual pursuit as it is a spiritual one.

Hi Shiloh,

Glad you are still discussing here bro. I also agree that people can tend to put down the intellectual pursuit, however that has come to mean having a label, (eg Pastor knows best) or a doctorate, or having been to Bible School. While these are good we have to remember that the Apostles who walked with the Lord did not have any great learning. They wrote as the Holy Spirit inspired them. So as we would both agree, I think there needs to be a balance, as it can be extreme either way.

Now as to exegesis, we know that that is the exposition of a text based on a careful, objective analysis. However I am not referring to that. What I see from God`s word is that Christ is the focus of the Father`s revelation in Scripture. (which you your self have said -  `The 66 books of the Bible have Jesus as their singular focus…` )

Jesus Himself tells us -

`And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.` (Luke 24: 27)

I believe that false doctrines come from this very point - not understanding that all of scripture concerns Christ, His character and His purposes. if you don`t hold that focus then you can twist God`s word as so many have done.

Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

34 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

That is nonsense.  No one is suggesting that we read the Bible only according to the rules of literature.   But those rules, keep us grounded, and they keep us from fanciful, sensationalist approaches to the Bible.  Those rules also provide a fence to protect us from dangerous doctrines that exist in cults like the Mormons, JW's and the SDA cult, as well.   The most successful cults in the world are the ones who use the Bible.

The Pharisees problem wasn't that they only read the Bible from the standpoint of rules.   The pharisaic problem stemmed from a departure of  the rules of proper interpretation.   They were interpreting Scripture to justify things like taking revenge, sexual lust, greed, adultery and frivolous divorce.  They were the opposite of someone who follows the proper rules of hermeneutics.

So no, using hermeneutics is not going to turn anyone into Pharisees.  It will turn them into the opposite of what the Pharisees were.  Hermeneutics lead us to the true message of Scripture, not away from it.

Hi again Shiloh,

We see that the Apostle Paul warned the believers in the book of Colossians concerning such errors as - Gnosticism, spiritism, ceremonialism,  asceticism and false philosophies, which made void what Christ had done and obscured His full glory.

` Let no one defraud you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, AND NOT HOLDING FAST TO THE HEAD, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase which is from God.` (Col. 2: 18 & 19)

Now I said -

`Just to read God`s word according to rules of literature can be as the Pharisees, who completely missed God`s heart revealing His Son and His desire for changed hearts.`

Jesus said -

`Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, saying: "The Scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses` seat, therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not according to their works.......woe...woe...woe....for you pay the tithe....and have neglected the weightier matters of the law; justice and mercy and faith....for you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence....` (Matt. 23: 1 & 2....23 & 25)

So we see that the Pharisees did read God`s word correctly, but they only read parts and did not relate them to the whole of God`s word.

Marilyn.

[Guest shiloh357]

15 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Glad you are still discussing here bro. I also agree that people can tend to put down the intellectual pursuit, however that has come to mean having a label, (eg Pastor knows best) or a doctorate, or having been to Bible School.

No, it has come to mean approaching the Bible from a place of sound doctrine.  Good hermeneutics are not a pastoral thing.  They are for everyone and are with within everyone's reach.  There is no excuse for not employing hermeneutics, even for those who are not pastors.

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While these are good we have to remember that the Apostles who walked with the Lord did not have any great learning.

And yet, God called the man who was the head of his class, the master theologian to write 2/3 of the New Testament and he also ended up being the greatest evangelist in his day and ours.   While Paul eschewed the human pride that came from his advanced academic accomplishments, he was able to employ them in evangelism, none the less.
 

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They wrote as the Holy Spirit inspired them. So as we would both agree, I think there needs to be a balance, as it can be extreme either way.

 

Hermeneutics is not an impediment to the Holy Spirit and there is nothing extreme about it.  And a lack of education, while not an impediment to the Holy Spirit, isn't a virtue.

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Now as to exegesis, we know that that is the exposition of a text based on a careful, objective analysis.

No, exegesis is not exposition.  Exposition is what happens from the pulpit, in delivering the meaning of the text and its application.   Exegesis is the process of drawing out the meaning of the text, but that is not done from the pulpit.  Exposition and exegesis are two different things.

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However I am not referring to that. What I see from God`s word is that Christ is the focus of the Father`s revelation in Scripture. (which you your self have said -  `The 66 books of the Bible have Jesus as their singular focus…` )

When I say that, "The 66 books of the Bible have Jesus as their singular focus," that is the principle we glean from Scripture, derived from hermeneutics.

[Guest shiloh357]

9 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi again Shiloh,

We see that the Apostle Paul warned the believers in the book of Colossians concerning such errors as - Gnosticism, spiritism, ceremonialism,  asceticism and false philosophies, which made void what Christ had done and obscured His full glory.

` Let no one defraud you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, AND NOT HOLDING FAST TO THE HEAD, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase which is from God.` (Col. 2: 18 & 19)

That is not a warning against using proper hermeneutics, so I really don't see the point in including that.

Quote

 

Now I said -

`Just to read God`s word according to rules of literature can be as the Pharisees, who completely missed God`s heart revealing His Son and His desire for changed hearts.`

Jesus said -

`Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, saying: "The Scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses` seat, therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not according to their works.......woe...woe...woe....for you pay the tithe....and have neglected the weightier matters of the law; justice and mercy and faith....for you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence....` (Matt. 23: 1 & 2....23 & 25)

So we see that the Pharisees did read God`s word correctly, but they only read parts and did not relate them to the whole of God`s word.

 

That is self contradictory.   If they only read parts and did not relate them to the whole of God's word, then they were not reading them correctly. But it was more than that.  They read the Bible in a manner to justify their sin and they interpreted in order to achieve that end.

Your problem is that you want hermeneutics on YOUR terms.   You want to define hermeneutics in a way that suits YOU.    Jesus recognized their authority, but their lives proved that they did not read the Scriptures correctly and he generally criticized everything about how they interpreted Scripture.   He criticized their hypocritical interpretations, their gross misuse of Scripture to hide their sin, their rejection of Scripture in deference to their traditions, and we can see the myriad of Scriptures they had to violate to put Jesus on trial and demand his execution.

There was nothing about the error of the Pharisees that stemmed from a proper interpretation of Scripture.  Everything about their theology came from twisting Scripture.

[Marilyn C]

Just now, shiloh357 said:

No, it has come to mean approaching the Bible from a place of sound doctrine.  Good hermeneutics are not a pastoral thing.  They are for everyone and are with within everyone's reach.  There is no excuse for not employing hermeneutics, even for those who are not pastors.

And yet, God called the man who was the head of his class, the master theologian to write 2/3 of the New Testament and he also ended up being the greatest evangelist in his day and ours.   While Paul eschewed the human pride that came from his advanced academic accomplishments, he was able to employ them in evangelism, none the less.
 

Hermeneutics is not an impediment to the Holy Spirit and there is nothing extreme about it.  And a lack of education, while not an impediment to the Holy Spirit, isn't a virtue.

No, exegesis is not exposition.  Exposition is what happens from the pulpit, in delivering the meaning of the text and its application.   Exegesis is the process of drawing out the meaning of the text, but that is not done from the pulpit.  Exposition and exegesis are two different things.

When I say that, "The 66 books of the Bible have Jesus as their singular focus," that is the principle we glean from Scripture, derived from hermeneutics.

Hi Shiloh,

I was referring to how people can think that they are not able to interpret God`s word and have to have someone with a label to do it for them.

Yes it was wonderful that God chose the apostle Paul who had such learning to contend for the faith and reveal Christ to us in all His glory, and the eternal purposes which was not known before that.

Exegesis I agree is a drawing out, to lead out of, and the interpreter is led to his conclusions by following the text.

Marilyn.  

[Marilyn C]

3 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

 

There was nothing about the error of the Pharisees that stemmed from a proper interpretation of Scripture.  Everything about their theology came from twisting Scripture.

Jesus told the people to  - `whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not according to their works`  which shows that the Pharisees did read portions of the OT correctly.

[Guest shiloh357]

8 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Jesus told the people to  - `whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not according to their works`  which shows that the Pharisees did read portions of the OT correctly.

That was not an affirmation of their study and knowledge of Scripture.  It was a recognition of their authority to regulate the community.  That's what rabbinical authority is about.    Their works and their teaching cannot be separated.  And they exalted their traditions over the word of God.  Jesus was not affirming teachings.  I realize you need to make Hermeneutics look pharisaic, but you're barking up the wrong tree.

[Marilyn C]

4 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

That is not a warning against using proper hermeneutics, so I really don't see the point in including that.

 

The point dear bro Shiloh, - 

`Let no one defraud you of your reward, ...... AND NOT HOLDING FAST TO THE HEAD, ...` (Col. 2: 18 & 19)

When people do not understand to have Christ, (His character and His purposes) as the focus, they end up for example, with all the strange theories of the book of Revelation. Put Christ first and what He is doing and the book becomes very clear. That is a wonderful `rule,` I believe.

Marilyn.

[Guest shiloh357]

Just now, Marilyn C said:

The point dear bro Shiloh, - 

`Let no one defraud you of your reward, ...... AND NOT HOLDING FAST TO THE HEAD, ...` (Col. 2: 18 & 19)

When people do not understand to have Christ, (His character and His purposes) as the focus, they end up for example, with all the strange theories of the book of Revelation. Put Christ first and what He is doing and the book becomes very clear. That is a wonderful `rule,` I believe.

Marilyn.

yes, but that has nothing to do with hermeneutics.