Guest shiloh357 Posted September 27, 2017 Share Posted September 27, 2017 1 minute ago, akueg said: He didn't know the hour of his own coming, "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. (Matthew 24:36 [NIV]) Here you have an example of LIMITED knowledge, which implies FINITE. Yes, but that was Jesus the man speaking. In His humanity, Jesus had limitations. Those limitations were voluntary and temporary. None of that applies to Jesus, now. Jesus is now super-exalted to the highest place in the universe. He is no longer under the temporary limitations that He had during His earthly ministry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akueg Posted September 27, 2017 Group: Seeker Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 30 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/19/2017 Status: Offline Author Share Posted September 27, 2017 (edited) 8 minutes ago, shiloh357 said: Yes, but that was Jesus the man speaking. In His humanity, Jesus had limitations. Those limitations were voluntary and temporary. None of that applies to Jesus, now. Jesus is now super-exalted to the highest place in the universe. He is no longer under the temporary limitations that He had during His earthly ministry. Again, you're proving my point. An infinite God NEVER had finite limitations, otherwise he was never "infinite" to begin with. Jesus Christ had limited knowledge not because he descended to earth, but because of the nature of who he is, A REPRESENTATION. Limitations STILL apply to Jesus Christ even after his resurrection, because SUBJECTION RELATES TO LIMITATION, where before and after his resurrection, he is still IN SUBJECTION TO THE FATHER, THE ONE TRUE GOD, hence, Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'" (John 20:17 [NIV]) Edited September 27, 2017 by akueg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted September 27, 2017 Share Posted September 27, 2017 3 minutes ago, akueg said: Again, you're proving my point. An infinite God NEVER had finite limitations, otherwise he was never "infinite" to begin with. As God eternal, Jesus never had finite limitations. Jesus as man had limitations, but that had no impact on Jesus' deity. Quote Jesus Christ had limited knowledge not because he descended to earth, but because of the nature of who he is, A REPRESENTATION. Limitations STILL apply to Jesus Christ even after his resurrection, because SUBJECTION RELATES TO LIMITATION, where before and after his resurrection, he is still IN SUBJECTION TO THE FATHER, THE ONE TRUE GOD, hence, Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'" (John 20:17 [NIV]) No, the limitations don't apply any longer. Jesus is eternally God, always was. There is no time in history where Jesus was never God. Jesus' took on human flesh and the limitations of humanity. It was something Jesus made Himself. It was not done TO Jesus, but rather, Jesus personally took upon humanity and the form of a servant. So Jesus, even in His humanity was equal with God, but ministered as a man with the limitations of humanity. He did that to model for us what the Christian life looks like. Jesus represented God the Father to us, but was also our representative before the Father. Jesus is no longer in subjection to the Father as He was on earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akueg Posted September 27, 2017 Group: Seeker Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 30 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/19/2017 Status: Offline Author Share Posted September 27, 2017 Just now, shiloh357 said: As God eternal, Jesus never had finite limitations. Jesus as man had limitations, but that had no impact on Jesus' deity. No, the limitations don't apply any longer. Jesus is eternally God, always was. There is no time in history where Jesus was never God. Jesus' took on human flesh and the limitations of humanity. It was something Jesus made Himself. It was not done TO Jesus, but rather, Jesus personally took upon humanity and the form of a servant. So Jesus, even in His humanity was equal with God, but ministered as a man with the limitations of humanity. He did that to model for us what the Christian life looks like. Jesus represented God the Father to us, but was also our representative before the Father. Jesus is no longer in subjection to the Father as He was on earth. There is no "half man" and "half God". Either you are man, or you are God. Either you are finite, or you are infinite. Either you are a representation, or you are not a representation. Christ is God because he is a representation of God, not because he himself is God as the Father is God, and this much is evident because Jesus Christ exhibited limited knowledge, and even mortality, where as the Father has no limit of knowledge, nor does he ever die. Jesus Christ is STILL in subjection to the Father, just as a wife is in subjection to a husband, But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. (1 Corinthians 11:3 [NIV]) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted September 27, 2017 Share Posted September 27, 2017 1 minute ago, akueg said: There is no "half man" and "half God". Either you are man, or you are God. Either you are finite, or you are infinite. Jesus wasn't/isn't half man, half God. Jesus is 100% man and 100% God. Fully human and fully God. Quote Christ is God because he is a representation of God, not because he himself is God as the Father is God, and this much is evident because Jesus Christ exhibited limited knowledge, and even mortality, where as the Father has no limit of knowledge, nor does he ever die. Jesus was not representation of God; Jesus was as representation of God the Father. He could only be the representation of God the Father because they share the same eternal nature and character. Quote Jesus Christ is STILL in subjection to the Father, just as a wife is in subjection to a husband, But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. (1 Corinthians 11:3 [NIV]) There is a difference in the rank that exists in the Godhead, and the submission that Jesus exhibited during His earthly ministry. You are trying to attribute the submission of Jesus to the Father during his earthly ministry to His relationship to the Father now, and that is false teaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akueg Posted September 27, 2017 Group: Seeker Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 30 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/19/2017 Status: Offline Author Share Posted September 27, 2017 Just now, shiloh357 said: Jesus wasn't/isn't half man, half God. Jesus is 100% man and 100% God. Fully human and fully God. Jesus was not representation of God; Jesus was as representation of God the Father. He could only be the representation of God the Father because they share the same eternal nature and character. There is a difference in the rank that exists in the Godhead, and the submission that Jesus exhibited during His earthly ministry. You are trying to attribute the submission of Jesus to the Father during his earthly ministry to His relationship to the Father now, and that is false teaching. Which again, as 100% human, it is implied he is finite. Whereas the 100% God aspect of him, does not take away that he is still finite, since he is still man, because we see in scripture EVIDENCES of other men, who are also finite, being MADE AS GOD, Then the LORD said to Moses, "See, I make you as God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet. (Exodus 7:1 [NASB]) Because it relates to BEING A REPRESENTATION OF GOD. Do you not know that the rulership of Jesus Christ will one day end? Read, Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. (1 Corinthians 15:24-28 [NIV]) Currently, Jesus Christ sits AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, but one day he will no longer sit at the right hand of God, because this relates to having LIMITATION AS A REPRESENTATION OF GOD, Of David. A psalm. The LORD says to my lord: "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet." (Psalm 110:1 [NIV]) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted September 27, 2017 Share Posted September 27, 2017 3 hours ago, akueg said: Which again, as 100% human, it is implied he is finite. Whereas the 100% God aspect of him, does not take away that he is still finite, since he is still man, because we see in scripture EVIDENCES of other men, who are also finite, being MADE AS GOD, Then the LORD said to Moses, "See, I make you as God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet. (Exodus 7:1 [NASB]) He is not saying that He will make Him deity. In fact the Hebrew is better translated as, "I will make you as a god..." The point of the passage is that Moses will be God's spokesman, He will speak for God to Pharaoh. Jesus, being human, doesn't make Him finite. Jesus has always existed; there is never a time that Jesus did not exist or will not exist. Quote Because it relates to BEING A REPRESENTATION OF GOD. Do you not know that the rulership of Jesus Christ will one day end? Read, Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. (1 Corinthians 15:24-28 [NIV]) But that does not make Jesus finite. Jesus is God, co-eternal with the Father. Roles may change, but nothing about who Jesus is will change. Quote Currently, Jesus Christ sits AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, but one day he will no longer sit at the right hand of God, because this relates to having LIMITATION AS A REPRESENTATION OF GOD, Of David. A psalm. The LORD says to my lord: "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet." (Psalm 110:1 [NIV]) You are confused about Jesus as God's representative. Jesus isn't the representative of God; He is the representation of God, and those are not the same thing. Jesus is the representation of the nature and character of God in that He is showing us what the Father is like. You're trying to put a time stamp or expiration date on that role of Christ, but the Bible doesn't. Most of your nonsense is just your own imaginings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akueg Posted September 27, 2017 Group: Seeker Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 30 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/19/2017 Status: Offline Author Share Posted September 27, 2017 6 minutes ago, shiloh357 said: He is not saying that He will make Him deity. In fact the Hebrew is better translated as, "I will make you as a god..." The point of the passage is that Moses will be God's spokesman, He will speak for God to Pharaoh. Jesus, being human, doesn't make Him finite. Jesus has always existed; there is never a time that Jesus did not exist or will not exist. But that does not make Jesus finite. Jesus is God, co-eternal with the Father. Roles may change, but nothing about who Jesus is will change. You are confused about Jesus as God's representative. Jesus isn't the representative of God; He is the representation of God, and those are not the same thing. Jesus is the representation of the nature and character of God in that He is showing us what the Father is like. You're trying to put a time stamp or expiration date on that role of Christ, but the Bible doesn't. Most of your nonsense is just your own imaginings. Even if you translate that verse as "make you as a god" as opposed to "make you as God", do you not understand the ramifications of God saying this to Moses, that God will make him a god? Hello?????????? You deliberately miss the whole meaning of that passage, because you want to refuse to understand that God making Moses a god RELATES to God making Jesus Christ a god. "a god", or "AS God", or "LIKE God", whatever you want to call it, it means the SAME THING, where God APPOINTS HIS REPRESENTATION TO ACT ON HIS BEHALF. Jesus Christ did not make himself God, nor has he always existed as God, he was GRANTED authority to be God, BY GOD, no different than Moses was, but in greater authority than Moses, over all heaven and earth. This also relates to why even Adam, who was also made in the REPRESENTATION OF GOD, was subsequently given authority to rule over the entire earth, ...let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth... (Genesis 1:26) Because it relates to being the "image of God", So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. (Genesis 1:27 [ESV]) Where Jesus Christ is also the image of God, The Son is the image of the invisible God... (Colossians 1:15 [NIV]) And because he is just an IMAGE of God, just as Adam was, this implies he too was created, just as Adam was, hence, The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. (Colossians 1:15 [NIV]) He was born first before anyone else came into being. You do not understand how a son relates to a father. A father comes first, then a son, in relation to time, and since the Father never began, then the next order of existence for the firstborn of all creation would be in the beginning. As such, Jesus Christ came into existence in day one of creation. This is the original teaching of scriptures, believe it, or do not. I've argued this enough and shown you ample times that you are wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted September 27, 2017 Share Posted September 27, 2017 16 minutes ago, akueg said: Even if you translate that verse as "make you as a god" as opposed to "make you as God", do you not understand the ramifications of God saying this to Moses, that God will make him a god? Hello?????????? In Hebrew the word "elohim" can mean messenger or judge. It is even used to refer to angels. It is not saying that Moses was made a god in the sense that he was made a deity. It means that he would speak for God to Pharaoh. Quote You deliberately miss the whole meaning of that passage, because you want to refuse to understand that God making Moses a god RELATES to God making Jesus Christ a god. "a god", or "AS God", or "LIKE God", whatever you want to call it, it means the SAME THING, where God APPOINTS HIS REPRESENTATION TO ACT ON HIS BEHALF. Jesus was not made a God. Jesus always was God. He has no beginning or end. He is co-eternal with the Father meaning that in the dateless eternal past, Jesus was there with the Father. Quote Jesus Christ did not make himself God, nor has he always existed as God, he was GRANTED authority to be God, BY GOD, Heresy. Jesus always existed as God. No true believer will accept or believe as you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akueg Posted September 27, 2017 Group: Seeker Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 30 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/19/2017 Status: Offline Author Share Posted September 27, 2017 5 minutes ago, shiloh357 said: In Hebrew the word "elohim" can mean messenger or judge. It is even used to refer to angels. It is not saying that Moses was made a god in the sense that he was made a deity. It means that he would speak for God to Pharaoh. Jesus was not made a God. Jesus always was God. He has no beginning or end. He is co-eternal with the Father meaning that in the dateless eternal past, Jesus was there with the Father. Heresy. Jesus always existed as God. No true believer will accept or believe as you do. I've heard that before. People in your position will call those who actually understand the scriptures "heretics", when it is they themselves who are the heretics who have alienated themselves from the actual teaching of scripture in favor of what they have been taught by their churches. Jesus Christ coming into existence in the beginning is the original teaching of scripture, hence "he is the firstborn of creation" and "the Father is greater than I". It was the catholic church that later on distorted sound teaching by promulgating their teaching of the trinity, which the protestant churches have subsequently borrowed. I have taken enough time out of my day to try to show you with scripture that you are wrong, but if you refuse to come to understanding, that is on you. Bye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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