Once Saved always Saved, Is A Doctrine Of Devils

[Mike 2]

10 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

Actually, no one is taught that.   That is what many, who do not understand the doctrine of Eternal Security, claim that it teaches.   The assumption is that if you believe you are eternally secure, there is no impediment  to sinful self-indulgence.  It's the opposite, in reality. 

Salvation is a transformational event.  When a person believes the Gospel and are saved, he is changed.  He received a new heart, a new set of desires to serve God.   He is a "new creature."  He is not the same person He was before.    Salvation is not simply a matter of being moved from one side of the ledger to the other side.  

When a person is truly saved and indwelt by the Holy Spirit, he is not going out and looking for a way to sin.  He is not living in sin.  The genuine Christian isn't simply a convert; he is follower of Jesus. He is a disciple of Jesus. 

One of the problems I see in modern evangelism is that we are preaching to make people converts instead of preaching to make people followers and disciples of Jesus.   And there is a big difference.   You can "convert" to the Christian religion, but miss out on Jesus.   You can "convert" and never be changed.

Well said

[simplejeff]

53 minutes ago, Mike 2 said:

Rom 10:9  that if you will confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 

I don't see any indication here that it is only if God is willing  in fact, I don't see any conditions attached to this.

(1) "will be"

(2) Can Scripture be broken ? (no)

(3) Is ALL Scripture TRUTH ?  (yes)

(4) "He who endures to the end will be saved" (yes)

(5) Condition ?  (yes)

(6) Others ?  (in Yahweh's Word, unchangeable, unalterable, TRUTH) ?  Yes.

(7) Yahweh says so.   Not one particle or dot of His Word will fall to the ground,  ever.

[Mike 2]

56 minutes ago, simplejeff said:

1 hour ago, Mike 2 said:

Rom 10:9  that if you will confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 

I don't see any indication here that it is only if God is willing  in fact, I don't see any conditions attached to this.

(1) "will be"

(2) Can Scripture be broken ? (no)

(3) Is ALL Scripture TRUTH ?  (yes)

(4) "He who endures to the end will be saved" (yes)

(5) Condition ?  (yes)

(6) Others ?  (in Yahweh's Word, unchangeable, unalterable, TRUTH) ?  Yes.

(7) Yahweh says so.   Not one particle or dot of His Word will fall to the ground,  ever.

I am assuming you are talking about Mat. 24:13 because you have quoted it a number of times

"He who endures to the end will be saved" (yes)

To the end of what? In the context of this discussion,  you are assuming the end of their life

Here's Barnes' commentary on this verse, and he's not the only scholar saying this

Our Lord had ordered his followers to make their escape from Jerusalem when they should see it encompassed with armies; but how could this be done? God took care to provide amply for this. In the twelfth year of Nero, Cestius Gallus, the president of Syria, came against Jerusalem with a powerful army. He might, says Josephus, War, b. ii. c. 19, have assaulted and taken the city, and thereby put an end to the war; but without any just reason, and contrary to the expectation of all, he raised the siege and departed. Josephus remarks, that after Cestius Gallus had raised the siege, “many of the principal Jewish people, πολλοι των επιφανων Ιουδαιων, forsook the city, as men do a sinking ship.” Vespasian was deputed in the room of Cestius Gallus, who, having subdued all the country, prepared to besiege Jerusalem, and invested it on every side. But the news of Nero’s death, and soon after that of Galba, and the disturbances that followed, and the civil wars between Otho and Vitellius, held Vespasian and his son Titus in suspense. Thus the city was not actually besieged in form till after Vespasian was confirmed in the empire, and Titus was appointed to command the forces in Judea. It was in those incidental delays that the Christians, and indeed several others, provided for their own safety, by flight.

Context , context, context

The verse you are using is part of Jesus talking about the destruction of Jerusalem. In fairness, he later goes on to talk of the final days, but not in this part.

When we look at the verse you are using in its context, as numerous scholars show, it has nothing to do with losing our salvation.

If I look at that verse only as you have drawn it out I am perplexed as to how there could be a conflict with my understanding of what Paul writes in Romans. That said, could I be misunderstanding Paul or what Jesus said? The only way to learn that was to look at both verses in the context of which they were spoken so I can then understand where the controversy is. This is why I like this forum- because it causes me to study.

I have written in the very first page of my bible and on the first page of every bible I give away

"I have to be willing to be wrong"

Otherwise I will ignore what the bible is telling me because of my preconceived ideas.

This chain has been riddled with quotes taken out of context for eisegetical use. It started with the original post and seems to have been contagious. Probably because we are putting a priority on responding rather than reading the context of the verses we chose and learning. 

We have to be fair to ourselves if we are truly seeking to learn and not let our theology form the meaning of the words but let the words form the meaning of our theology.

If the words in their context don't bolster our understanding, we are compelled to rethink our understanding.

 

 

Edited October 27, 2017 by Mike 2

[simplejeff]

 

15 minutes ago, Mike 2 said:

"I have to be willing to be wrong"

Otherwise I will ignore what the bible is telling me because of my preconceived ideas.

Thus,  it is good you are willing to be wrong.  "preconceived ideas" are wrong.  (Scripturally, Spiritually)

15 minutes ago, Mike 2 said:

If the words in their context don't bolster our understanding

If the understanding is lacking,

"If any one lackes wisdom"   ? 

Let him ask of Yahweh,  who grants understanding freely and adds no shame with it.

15 minutes ago, Mike 2 said:

we are compelled to rethink our understanding.

That's expected.  Not just "rethink" , but give it up,  renounce it,  deny it, do not trust your own understanding ,

as it is wrong. (same as we all once were (Ephesians 2) .

[Bro.Tan]

7 hours ago, TheMatrixHasU71 said:

Well there are people who do seem to believe that all you have to do is just say the right words like some kind of magic formula, and bang you are saved, no problem; you can continue to go on living an unregenerate life sinning all you want and you dont have to worry about going to hell. Such people are not saved and never were.

There is such a thing too as being reborn in the spirit. Such a person has buried the old man of sin....

 

Romans 6:6 |

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Ephesians 4:22 

That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

Colossians 3:9 |

Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

 

 

Having said that however, remember too that being saved makes us forgiven sinners, not perfect. That perfection wont come till we have fully put off the flesh (1 Cor 15:52-54). So we will always continue to struggle along that narrow path and make mistakes from time to time.

 

In this context, Once saved always saved is perfectly biblical. 

 

https://www.allaboutgod.com/once-saved-always-saved.htm

Once Saved, Always Saved – The Biblical Evidence
The Bible teaches “once saved, always saved” -- that we can be saved once and for all only through a repentant, saving faith in Jesus Christ. Once a person has accepted Christ as Savior, they may wonder if it is possible to lose that salvation. What if they commit a sin? What if they commit a lot of sins? What if they do something very, very wrong? Is it possible to be saved, and then lose that salvation? Fortunately, the answer is a resounding “no.” Once a person has accepted Jesus Christ as Savior, he/she is forever saved. This fact is referred to as the doctrine of “eternal security,” often summarized as “once saved, always saved.” 

There are several reasons why a person can be confident in their “eternal security.” First and foremost is the evidence of Scripture. John 3:15-18 says about Christ: “The Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.”

The salvation in Christ is not temporary, it is eternal. 

In John 10:28-30, Jesus says: “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one." The forgiveness of God through Christ is sufficient to cover all of our sins -- past, present, and future. There is nothing a person can do that God cannot forgive. This doctrine is supported by Romans 8:38-39, Ephesians 4:30, and Jude 24; among others.

Once Saved, Always Saved – The Logical Evidence
As with many other scriptural doctrines, the idea of “once saved, always saved” is also supported logically. Eternal security is consistent with everything else the Bible teaches about mankind, and God. Examining the doctrine in relation to the rest of Scripture demonstrates that it is consistent with all other biblically sound teachings. The idea of losing our salvation is not only unscriptural, but it creates monumental problems with other doctrines, including salvation by faith, the sin nature of man, and the purpose of Christ’s sacrifice. 

The Bible teaches that man is inherently sinful -- that a sinful nature is a part of all of us (Romans 3:10). This means that even after being saved, every single believer is going to sin from time to time. Thinking that we can live a perfect, sinless life after our salvation is not only unscriptural, but arrogant (James 2:10). If we are not eternally secure, this sinning will cause us to lose our salvation, but how much sin is too much? There is no scriptural “yardstick” given to tell us how many or what kind of sins are enough to void our salvation. Without eternal security, the Bible would describe a situation where Christianity is a perpetual game of Russian Roulette; a life in which condemnation and salvation alternate every time we sin and confess, and we never know if we’re saved or not. 

Scriptural passages (Ephesians 2:8-9, Isaiah 64:6) indicate that our attempts at good deeds will never earn us a place in heaven. We cannot make up for our past, present, or future sins by doing good works. A saved believer will, as a natural product of their faith, shun sin and practice good works (James 2:18). If “once saved, always saved” is not true, then by necessity we are saved both by our faith and our works. If we can do sinful things, or not do good things (James 4:17) and lose our security, then our good deeds are a part of our salvation. This concept is contradictory to Scripture. It also creates an unlivable scenario where we have to try to do enough good to outweigh our sinful natures. The doctrine of “eternal security” goes hand in hand with the doctrine of “saved by faith alone.” To deny eternal security is to endorse a “faith plus works” salvation system. 

Jesus Christ made some powerful statements about morality during His earthly ministry. In those three short years, He talked the talk and walked the walk of the toughest moral and ethical system in human history. Most religions focus on the external actions, but Christ took the concept of sin and holiness to a much deeper level. For example, most religions are satisfied to condemn the physical act of adultery, but Christ said “Whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart” (Matthew 5:28). 

Christ set the bar for holiness at a level all Christians are called to aspire to, but none can ever fully live up to, because of our sin nature. Just as the law of Moses was meant, in part, to demonstrate to Israel how impossible it was for mortal man to obtain the moral perfection of God, the standards of Christ also remind us of how shallow our best efforts at goodness really are. Thankfully, God has always provided a way for us to be forgiven for our shortcomings. Christ’s sacrifice on the cross served the same purpose for all mankind that the sacrificial lambs did for specific families before His ministry. Christ was a sinless, blameless substitute for our sins. The Bible clearly tells us what Christ’s moral expectations are for us. If we lost our salvation every time we fell short of those ideals, then none of us would be saved for more than a few minutes at a time. If that were true, what purpose was there in His death? 

Also, according to the Bible, if we could lose our salvation, then it would be lost forever, because Christ only died once. Hebrews 6:4-6 is an often misunderstood passage, which strongly supports the doctrine of eternal security in two ways: it implies that Christ’s sacrifice must be sufficient for all sins, and states that if it were possible for a person to lose their salvation, it would be forever lost. According to this passage, if a person could do something that cost them their salvation (which they cannot), then it would be “impossible” for them to be re-redeemed.

Once Saved, Always Saved – The New Creation
Critics of the “once saved, always saved” doctrine claim that it gives Christians a license to sin. They presume that those who believe in eternal security intend to accept salvation, and then continue to willingly sin. This is inaccurate, because anyone who has been truly saved is a new creature (2 Corinthians 5:17), has the conviction of the Holy Spirit (John 14:26; 1 Thessalonians 4:8), and now wants to live for Christ. Someone who continues to willingly and blatantly live in sin has not truly accepted Christ (1 John 2:19; 1 John 3:6; James 1:26). While this false belief may be held by some, it is not a part of the teachings of any true Christian church (Romans 3:8). 

A person who willingly, humbly, repents of sin and turns towards the cross, trusting Christ as their Savior, will be saved (Acts 16:31; John 6:37; John 14:6). That salvation is once and for all, eternal, and secure. Those who truly trust in Christ are saved once, and saved always.

*Back to me*

 

Now God will chastise His saved children who sin, even to the point of death if necessary, but that does not mean they have lost their salvation. 

 

Very interesting and somethings I do agree with. But Paul did say in Hebrews 10: (v.26) For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins. Now do we understand what’s being said here? If you sin willfully after you have knowledge of what the truth is, no more animals are going to die for you. (v.27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Now if a person is being deceived into believing that once you are under God’s grace they are save and no longer have to keep his commandments, all they have to look forward to is the day of judgement and the lake of fire (fiery indignation). Didn't Paul say in  Romans 6:23  For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.  

[Bro.Tan]

13 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

First of all, Matt. 24F:13 is talking about the Tribulation.   He is talking about those who endure to the end of the Tribulation period.   You need to look at that verse in its literary context.

Another point that needs to be made is that in the original Greek, "Saved" is used 5 different ways in the New Testament.   It can refer to preservation, restoration, deliverance, healing and security.    In Matt. 24:13, it is referring to a physical endurance of the Tribulation saints through the Tribulation period and deliverance at the end.  Those saints who endure to the end of the Tribulation will be delivered and will go into the millennial kingdom.

Actually, no one is taught that.   That is what many, who do not understand the doctrine of Eternal Security, claim that it teaches.   The assumption is that if you believe you are eternally secure, there is no impediment  to sinful self-indulgence.  It's the opposite, in reality. 

Salvation is a transformational event.  When a person believes the Gospel and are saved, he is changed.  He received a new heart, a new set of desires to serve God.   He is a "new creature."  He is not the same person He was before.    Salvation is not simply a matter of being moved from one side of the ledger to the other side.  

When a person is truly saved and indwelt by the Holy Spirit, he is not going out and looking for a way to sin.  He is not living in sin.  The genuine Christian isn't simply a convert; he is follower of Jesus. He is a disciple of Jesus. 

One of the problems I see in modern evangelism is that we are preaching to make people converts instead of preaching to make people followers and disciples of Jesus.   And there is a big difference.   You can "convert" to the Christian religion, but miss out on Jesus.   You can "convert" and never be changed.

Paul's point in that passage had to do with personal discipline.  Paul's point is that he is not going to undermine his preaching by not living out the virtues and principles he preaches about.   In essence, Paul is making every effort to practice what he preaches.   He does this so that he will not be a "castaway."   He is not talking about losing salvation;  he is talking about being disqualified for service.  He is talking about being cast aside in terms of usefulness in ministry.

Your approach to that passage has Paul working for salvation, which if that is the case, it would make Paul, not Jesus, the savior. 
 

That is false teaching.  We do not do the will of God to get saved or to stay saved.  Our works  are the fruit of salvation, not the means by which we are saved.

It is also worth pointing out that in the Exodus, which is the Bible's archetype of salvation, the children of Israel were not given the law,  and told that their deliverance from slavery was conditional upon their obedience to the law.  In their bondage to slavery, they were unable to keep God's law.   God's law was given AFTER they were saved.   God's commandments are only given to a redeemed community to keep and only a redeemed community can keep God's law.   

You might not be going to Heave, but I am.  You can either go to Heaven or Hell when you die.  So if you reject Heaven, there's only one other option for you.

No, what was nailed to the cross were our offenses, our sins.   In ancient Rome, it was customary, when someone was crucified, to nail to their cross, all of the offenses that person committed to justify why that person was being crucified.   Paul draws on that imagery to say that our offenses were nailed to Jesus' cross and He was dying for what we have done and paying the price for our sins.

That passage out of Hebrews 10 was written to Jews who were sitting on the fence, who were considering becoming believers, but were also being tempted and coerced to return to the sacrificial system.   The book of Hebrews was written to address both Jewish believers and Jews who were considering salvation and the terms of the Gospel.   You can see how Paul toggles back and forth between both audiences in Hebrews.   Hebrews was not written to a specific Church, but to the Jewish community at large.   He is not talking to Christians who were going to abandon the faith; but to Jewish people who had mentally assented to the propositional claims of the Gospel, but had not fully converted at that time.

Yeah...that's a lot disagreeing and no Bible to go with it, i see all the time. It’s easy for people to say how much they love the Lord, they may be able to deceive man, but God knows the mind. Many profess they know God, but in their works they deny him everyday and say they saved. Paul said in (Titus 1:16) They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him; being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. Yea, most people are talking about how they know God with their lips, but by they works they are doing something totally different. The Lord God commanded you to remember the Sabbath day (which is the seventh day of the week) to keep it holy and people deny him to his face by saying “I go to church on Sunday (the first day of the week) because Paul broke bread on Sunday”. Paul said in (Gal. 6:3-5, 7) (v.3) For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself. (v.4) But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.  The book says let every man prove his own work, and if your work is good then you will rejoice in it. (v.5) For every man shall bear his own burden. That’s right; every man must bear his own burden. You mean you thought that all you had to do was confess the name of Jesus and that was it? Brothers and sisters you must work to get salvation. (v.7) Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. God is not to be played with. Whatsoever you plant, that’s what you are going to reap. Be it good works unto eternal life, or evil works unto eternal damnation. The choice is yours, and your works belong to you, and if want to be considered saved, you have things to do!

 

[Bro.Tan]

18 hours ago, Yowm said:

My old life ended at Calvary. Through the cross we have been made a new creation in Christ, all things are made new. I entered 'the good side of the Kingdom' at Calvary so that...

He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?
(Rom 8:32-35)

And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.
(Col 2:13-14)

So that He has... 

 raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
(Eph 2:6)

Again, sorry you are rejecting faith in God's promises living on the left side of Calvary.

 

 

I agree with all of Paul you post, know problem with that at all. But Paul wrote about other matters as well, concerning salvation and we can not ignore other writing of Paul. If do not have a clear understanding of the whole Bible from Genesis to Revelation you may have problem with understanding Paul. God had Peter to clearly warn you about some of Paul’s writing.  (2Peter:3:15-16) (v.15) And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; (v.16) As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 

People we must realize, that it is the keeping of God’s holy laws that separates the righteous from the unrighteous. Paul said in (Titus: 3:8) This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. You must learn (by the word of God) what God expects of you and maintain his expectations to the end, if you expect to be saved.  

 

 

 

[Bro.Tan]

21 hours ago, Robert William said:

Limited Atonement (Particular Redemption)

Limited Atonement is a doctrine offered in answer to the question, "for whose sins did Christ atone?" The Bible teaches that Christ died for those whom God gave him to save (John 17:9)

Joh 17:9  I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine...  Christ died, indeed, for many people, but not all (Matthew 26:28).  

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins

Specifically, Christ died for the invisible Church -- the sum total of all those who would ever rightly bear the name "Christian" (Ephesians 5:25).
This doctrine often finds many objections, mostly from those who think that Limited Atonement does damage to evangelism. We have already seen that Christ will not lose any that the father has given to him (John 6:37). Christ's death was not a death of potential atonement for all people. Believing that Jesus' death was a potential, symbolic atonement for anyone who might possibly, in the future, accept him trivializes Christ's act of atonement. Christ died to atone for specific sins of specific sinners. Christ died to make holy the church. He did not Atone for all men, because obviously all men are not saved. Evangelism is actually lifted up in this doctrine, for the evangelist may tell his congregation that Christ died for sinners, and that he will not lose any of those for whom he died!

Good point my friend...because all this work Jesus did, people have problem with making adjustments in their lives. Many are traveling down the wrong road, which leads to destruction. (Matt 7:13,14) This is because many of us have heard about salvation but few of us want to do what is necessary to get salvation (many are called but few are chosen). Many contend that Jesus did it all and now all we have to do is have faith. The bible says, we must not only be a hearer of the word, but a doer of the word also (James 1:21-22). 

[Bro.Tan]

22 hours ago, Robert William said:

Do you have to be perfect to earn your salvation, do you think you can be perfect, do you think God will wink at one sin, if your answer is no to all three then you are on your way to Hell. I'm trying to show you that you can't earn your way in by good works.

Lets go into (James 2:14-18, 20-26) (v.14) What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him? (v.15) If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of a daily food, (v.16) And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? If someone came to you hungry and needed clothes and all you told them was peace be unto you, and God bless you, be ye warmed and filled. All you did was give lip service, no works, you didn’t help the problem.

(v.17) Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. The bible has been telling you all alone that you must have fruits to prove your faith. (v.18) Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. True faith goes hand in hand with good works. (v.20) But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Did you know that? Has anybody ever read this verse to you? How can you, after reading this verse ever say again that we need not work? You can have all the faith you want, but if you have no works to go along with that faith, that faith is in vain, that faith is dead.

(v.21) Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? We read where Abraham, the father of the faithful showed the Lord his faith by his works. (v.22) Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? (v.23) And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD AND IT WAS IMPUTED UNTO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS: and he was called the friend of God. (v.24) Ye see then how that by works a man is Justified, and not by faith only. Do you see that also? Do you understand that you need works to go along with that faith; if you love and fear God then you should have no problem obeying his commandments.

(v.25) Likewise also was not Ra’-hab the harlot justified by works, when she received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? Ra’-hab showed her faith in God and her fear of God by doing good works. (v.26) For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. Take it or leave it, but this is the true uncut word of God. Just as the body is dead when you take away the spirit (breath) so faith is dead if you have no works.  

 

 

[Guest shiloh357]

56 minutes ago, Bro.Tan said:

Brothers and sisters you must work to get salvation.

 

Do you really want to take your chances and rely on your good works to get salvation?   Do you really think you're good enough to earn it?   God's standard is full righteousness.   Do you think you measure up to God's perfect standard?  If you had to be judged by God, right this moment based on your works, do you think you would make it?  Do you merit or deserve salvation?