Did Jesus die on the 4000th year?

[Keras]

On ‎11‎/‎6‎/‎2017 at 3:32 AM, Retrobyter said:

Just be aware that a year to Gentiles is the same as a year on the Hebrew calendar. Even though we use a lunar month, we use leap MONTHS to make up for the differences in timing. It works out the same over all.

A year is one complete orbit of the earth around the sun, 365.24 days. 

A Jubilee occurs every 49 years, that is 7 X 7 Sabbath years, THEN the Jubilee on the 50th, which is also the first year of the next Sabbath cycle. Please read Leviticus 25:1-22 very carefully, this is made quite clear and anyone who counts 50 years between Jubilees, is making a fool of themselves.  Note how the Lord provides food enough for 3 years in the year prior to the seventh Sabbath and the Jubilee. Leviticus 25:21-22

[Retrobyter]

16 hours ago, Keras said:

A year is one complete orbit of the earth around the sun, 365.24 days. 

A Jubilee occurs every 49 years, that is 7 X 7 Sabbath years, THEN the Jubilee on the 50th, which is also the first year of the next Sabbath cycle. Please read Leviticus 25:1-22 very carefully, this is made quite clear and anyone who counts 50 years between Jubilees, is making a fool of themselves.  Note how the Lord provides food enough for 3 years in the year prior to the seventh Sabbath and the Jubilee. Leviticus 25:21-22

Shalom, Keras.

I don't disagree with you regarding the Shabbat shanowt ("Sabbath of years") and the YowVeel ("Jubilee" or "silver trumpet"). You're completely right about this matter. How did you think I was disagreeing with you?

You're also right about the length of time in days within one year. All I'm saying is that the children of Israel KNEW this and therefore had to add leap MONTHS to the works (usually about every second or third year) to correct the difference between the lunar cycle and the solar cycle.

Consider: 3 years x 365.24 days/year = 1,095.72 days and

3 years x 12 months/year x 29.5 days/month = 1062 days

1095.72 - 1062 = 33.72 days; therefore, at least one leap month would have to be added. This would be considered a second month, Adar I, the normal Adar becoming Adar II.

Leap years actually occur in years 3, 6, 8, 11, 14, 17 and 19 of a 19-year cycle, and the 19-year cycle begins in the year 1. It's now year 5778. (More can be found, if one is interested, at Judaism 101.)

[Keras]

Thanks, Roy. 

I have no interest in the Jewish calendar. What really matters is God's timing, which I posted in #3, proving that we are only 12/13 years from when Jesus will Return.  This fact should have everyone on the edge of their seats, anticipating dramatic events and getting ready physically and spiritually for all that must happen before that glorious time. 

But, as we know, people mostly just don't want to know about anything that may disturb their cozy lifestyle. And woe betide any preacher that says anything about Bible prophecy!  The sheeple are quite happy to have their ears tickled with prosperity theology and then a whisking outta here by a Grandfatherly God that won't let them face any kind of difficulties.  Going to be a very nasty shock for most, which is obviously how God wants it to be!

As for calculations of times during the last days, I believe the Sixth Seal event will move the earth out of her place, Isaiah 13:13  This will result in a 360 day year, that will make the time periods given in Daniel and Revelation work correctly. 

 

 

Edited November 8, 2017 by Keras

[Retrobyter]

On 11/7/2017 at 7:45 PM, Keras said:

Thanks, Roy. 

I have no interest in the Jewish calendar. What really matters is God's timing, which I posted in #3, proving that we are only 12/13 years from when Jesus will Return.  This fact should have everyone on the edge of their seats, anticipating dramatic events and getting ready physically and spiritually for all that must happen before that glorious time. 

But, as we know, people mostly just don't want to know about anything that may disturb their cozy lifestyle. And woe betide any preacher that says anything about Bible prophecy!  The sheeple are quite happy to have their ears tickled with prosperity theology and then a whisking outta here by a Grandfatherly God that won't let them face any kind of difficulties.  Going to be a very nasty shock for most, which is obviously how God wants it to be!

As for calculations of times during the last days, I believe the Sixth Seal event will move the earth out of her place, Isaiah 13:13  This will result in a 360 day year, that will make the time periods given in Daniel and Revelation work correctly. 

Shabbat shalom, Keras.

No, that's just as bad as Abdicate's idea of speeding the earth up to a 16-hour day to decrease the day and the night by a third each!

Changing the earth's orbit to a 360-day trip around the sun would seriously change the earth's trajectory, its weather pattern, and would cause things on the earth to go flying like loose objects in a bus hitting a telephone pole!

Isaiah 13:13, like the other passages in Isaiah and Jeremiah that you choose to take as unfulfilled prophecy, is about the PAST!

Isaiah 13:1-22
1 This is a prophecy about Bavel (Babylon), which Yesha‘yahu the son of Amotz saw: 

2 Hoist a banner on a high mountain,
shout to [the invaders];
beckon them to enter the Nobles’ Gate.
3 “I have ordered my holy ones,
summoned my heroes, eager and bold,
to execute my anger.”
4 Listen! A tumult on the mountains —
it sounds like a vast multitude!
Listen! The uproar of the kingdoms
of the nations gathering together!
ADONAI-Tzva’ot is mustering
an army for war.
5 They come from a distant land,
from beyond the horizon.
It’s ADONAI, with the weapons of his rage,
to lay waste to all the earth.
6 Howl! for the Day of ADONAI is at hand,
destruction coming from Shaddai.
7 This is why every arm will hang limp
and everyone’s courage melt away.
8 They will be gripped by panic,
seized with pain and agony,
writhing like a woman in labor,
looking aghast at each other, faces aflame.
9 Here comes the Day of ADONAI,
full of cruelty, rage and hot fury,
to desolate the earth
and destroy the sinners in it.
10 For the stars, the constellations in the sky,
will no longer give their light;
the sun will be dark when it rises;
and the moon will no longer shine. 

11 “I will punish the world for its evil
and the wicked for their iniquity.
I will end the arrogance of the proud
and humble the insolence of tyrants.
12 I will make humans rarer than gold,
scarcer than Ofir’s pure gold.
13 This is why I will make the heavens tremble,
and the earth will be shaken from its place
at the wrath of ADONAI-Tzva’ot
on the day of his fierce anger.
14 Then, like a hunted gazelle,
like sheep with no one to gather them,
everyone will head back to his own people;
everyone will flee to his own land.
15 Anyone found will be pierced through;
anyone caught will fall by the sword,
16 their babies dashed to pieces before their eyes,
their houses looted, their wives raped.
17 I will stir up against them the Medes,
who cannot be tempted by silver
or bought off with gold.
18 Their bows will tear young men to pieces,
they will have no pity on the fruit of the womb,
their eye will not spare children.” 

19 Thus Bavel (Babylon), that jewel of kingdoms,
the pride and glory of the Kasdim (Chaldeans),
will be like S’dom and ‘Amora
when overthrown by God.
20 It will never again be inhabited,
never lived in through all generations.
Arabs will not pitch tents there
nor shepherds bring their flocks.
21 But wildcats will lie there,
their houses will be full of owls,
ostriches will live there,
and wild goats will dance there.
22 Jackals will howl in their palaces
and wild dogs in their temples of delight.
Its time is close at hand,
its days will not last long. 
CJB

This passage is talking about God's wrath against Babylon when the Medes (Darius the Mede under Cyrus the Great) came against it and destroyed it in 539 B.C. It is NOT talking about the Second Coming of our Lord nor is it about anything in our future! It was fulfilled in 539 B.C, and that's that! The prophecy doesn't get "re-used" nor does it have any sort of future fulfillment! It's recorded in the Scriptures to show that, when God makes a prophecy through His prophets, that prophecy SHALL BE FULFILLED, because this one certainly did! History records Medo-Persia as a VERY ruthless people who lived to kill in battle!

If you continue to make these mistakes and abuse Scripture this way, then we will have no choice but to denounce everything you say on the topic!

[Keras]

49 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

No, that's just as bad as Abdicate's idea of speeding the earth up to a 16-hour day to decrease the day and the night by a third each!

Changing the earth's orbit to a 360-day trip around the sun would seriously change the earth's trajectory, its weather pattern, and would cause things on the earth to go flying like loose objects in a bus hitting a telephone pole!

Maybe the Lord's Day of wrath will be that bad. Isaiah 24:1-23 describes a very devastating scenario. Verses 18b-20 for example.   As I pointed out, Isaiah 13:13 does say the earth will be moved out of her place.  Your continued denials of plain scripture and nonsense about it all having already, just shows your contempt and foolish rejection of Bible prophecy. Is that because you can't abide the thought of being involved in what must happen yourself? 

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, Keras said:

Maybe the Lord's Day of wrath will be that bad. Isaiah 24:1-23 describes a very devastating scenario. Verses 18b-20 for example.   As I pointed out, Isaiah 13:13 does say the earth will be moved out of her place.  Your continued denials of plain scripture and nonsense about it all having already, just shows your contempt and foolish rejection of Bible prophecy. Is that because you can't abide the thought of being involved in what must happen yourself? 

Shabbat shalom, Keras.

Sorry, but although the Lord's Day of Wrath in the future will be bad, it will not be so bad that it will destroy the earth as a place in which to live! We know this from Scripture:

Proverbs 31:31
4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.
KJV

And, we are given these prophecies:

Psalm 72:1-19
1 Give the king thy judgments, O God, and thy righteousness unto the king's son.
2 He shall judge thy people with righteousness, and thy poor with judgment.
3 The mountains shall bring peace to the people, and the little hills, by righteousness.
4 He shall judge the poor of the people, he shall save the children of the needy, and shall break in pieces the oppressor.
5 They shall fear thee as long as the sun and moon endure, throughout all generations.
6 He shall come down like rain upon the mown grass: as showers that water the earth.
7 In his days shall the righteous flourish; and abundance of peace so long as the moon endureth.
8 He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth.
9 They that dwell in the wilderness shall bow before him; and his enemies shall lick the dust.
10 The kings of Tarshish and of the isles shall bring presents: the kings of Sheba and Seba shall offer gifts.
11 Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.
12 For he shall deliver the needy when he crieth; the poor also, and him that hath no helper.
13 He shall spare the poor and needy, and shall save the souls of the needy.
14 He shall redeem their soul from deceit and violence: and precious shall their blood be in his sight.
15 And he shall live, and to him shall be given of the gold of Sheba: prayer also shall be made for him continually; and daily shall he be praised.
16 There shall be an handful of corn in the earth upon the top of the mountains; the fruit thereof shall shake like Lebanon: and they of the city shall flourish like grass of the earth.
17 His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed.
18 Blessed be the LORD God, the God of Israel, who only doeth wondrous things.
19 And blessed be his glorious name for ever: and let the whole earth be filled with his glory; Amen, and Amen.
KJV

and ...

Psalm 104:1-5
1 Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty.
2 Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:
3 Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:
4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:
5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.
KJV

God does NOT "scrap the old earth and create a whole new planet," as some would have you believe! God burns off the works of mankind from the planet's surface and starts anew, but the planet itself survives FOREVER!

I have no "contempt and foolish rejection of Bible prophecy." I DO, however, have contempt for your foolish interpretation of that prophecy! Again, it is that dichotomous view of Scripture, that "all or nothing" interpretation of Scripture, those "vague generalities" and "universalisms" that lead to over-exaggerated and over-stated interpretations that are SO FAR OFF from the meaning intended by the various authors and the Author Himself as to insult those authors and Author! You can't go ripping verses out of their contexts and expect to get anything right!

 

[Keras]

15 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

God does NOT "scrap the old earth and create a whole new planet," as some would have you believe! God burns off the works of mankind from the planet's surface and starts anew, but the planet itself survives FOREVER!

This is exactly what I have always believed! Why do you jump to the wrong conclusion?  Your scriptures are well known to me. 

All the prophesies say that the Lord will clear and cleanse the holy land. Deuteronomy 32:43  That area and the rest of the earth will soon recover after the dramatic event of the Day of the Lord's wrath. We Christians will migrate into all of the holy Land, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Revelation 7:9, but in order to regain control of food supplies and general order, there will be a One World Government formed, divided into 10 regions. Each with a President, but soon another powerful man will rise to take control of it all. Daniel 7:23-27, Revelation 17:12-13

It will take at least 10+ years after this, before the glorious Return of Jesus.

 

[Retrobyter]

16 hours ago, Keras said:

This is exactly what I have always believed! Why do you jump to the wrong conclusion?  Your scriptures are well known to me. 

All the prophesies say that the Lord will clear and cleanse the holy land. Deuteronomy 32:43  That area and the rest of the earth will soon recover after the dramatic event of the Day of the Lord's wrath. We Christians will migrate into all of the holy Land, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Revelation 7:9, but in order to regain control of food supplies and general order, there will be a One World Government formed, divided into 10 regions. Each with a President, but soon another powerful man will rise to take control of it all. Daniel 7:23-27, Revelation 17:12-13

It will take at least 10+ years after this, before the glorious Return of Jesus.

Shalom, Keras.

Okay, that's good, but why must you insist on taking things in the prophecies of the Tanakh (the OT) and thinking that they all apply to OUR future?! You need to learn how to delineate between the prophecies that are fulfilled and the prophecies yet to be fulfilled.

You probably know most of the prophecies, for instance, that predict the First Coming (the First Advent) of our Lord Yeshua` the Messiah. Those are most definitely fulfilled and are complete. You wouldn't take one of those prophecies and apply them haphazardly to the appearance of another, would you?

Then, why would you take a prophecy against Bavel (Babylon) and apply it toward a time period to which it doesn't belong? Even if you don't understand HOW the verse(s) may have been fulfilled by the history of 539 B.C., you should at least start with the ASSUMPTION that they were so fulfilled, and not wrench the verse or verses out of their context to make them mean something they were never intended to mean!

Let's look at the one verse, Isaiah 13:13:

Isaiah 13:13
13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.
KJV

Here's the Hebrew:

Yesha`yahu 13:13
13 Al keen shaamayim argiyz v-tir`ash haa’aarets mimqowmaah b`eVrat YHWH tsVaa’owt uwVyowm charown apow:
JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH

13 Al = 13 Above/Over/Upon/Against
keen = set-upright/just/rightly/so
shaamayim = skies
argiyz = I-will-make-quiver
v- = and
tir`ash = I-shall-make-to-undulate/to-shake/to-spring
haa’aarets = the-earth/land/Land-(of-Israel)
mi- = from
mqowmaah = a-standing/spot
b- = in
`eVrat = an-outburst-of-passion/anger/wrath
YHWH = YHWH/the-LORD
tsVaa’owt = of-armies
uwV- = and
yowm = a-day
charown = of-a-burning
apow: = of-his-nostrils.

Therefore, your phrase "the earth shall remove out of her place" in the KJV comes from the Hebrew phrase "and I shall make to undulate the land from [its] spot." It does NOT mean "the whole planet shall be removed out of its place!" It's talking about an earthquake that happened in Mesopotamia.

We learn from various sites that...

Quote

13. Unlike the Nile, the Tigress floods violently. Unlike Egypt, Mesopotamia has horrible sandstorms, earthquakes, and drought. Mesopotamia has open boarders, prone to invasions.

(More at Jack Hennessy Garrity's Sumeria-and-early-Mesootamia.)

So, why cling to some English version of what the Bible says? Is it really to gain knowledge, or is it really to support some pet theory you have?

Look, there's no need to have a 360-day year. It's not like our financial, Julian calendars and calculations used for generalized amortization schedules, where every month is 30 days and a year is just 360 days (with the other 5.24 days counted as "holidays").

You said you had no need for the Hebrew calendar, but you really should look into it. It will give you a different perspective on this 30-day-per-month generality that has no place in reality. Just because the math works out much easier (1,260 days; 3.5 years x 360 days/year = 1,260 days; 42 months x 30 days/month = 1,260 days; WOW! Would you look at that! 1,260 days = 1,260 days = 1,260 days!), doesn't mean it's correct!

However, to FORCE it to be "correct," we just need somehow to make a year equal 360 days! So, we ARREST a verse, pulled out of its context, and FORCE it to mean that the 365.24-day year is mutated into a 360-day year! That's not exegesis; that's EISEGESIS! You're not letting the Scriptures dictate what you believe; you're FORCING YOUR viewpoint onto the Scriptures! That's just bad hermeneutics.

[Keras]

46 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Then, why would you take a prophecy against Bavel (Babylon) and apply it toward a time period to which it doesn't belong? Even if you don't understand HOW the verse(s) may have been fulfilled by the history of 539 B.C., you should at least start with the ASSUMPTION that they were so fulfilled, and not wrench the verse or verses out of their context to make them mean something they were never intended to mean!

I do that because what is prophesied was never properly fulfilled in ancient times and we are told in Eccl 1:9 that what has happened will again happen. Dual fulfilment is a perfectly acceptable interpretation. 

Also you don't take account of Bible 'types'. Babylon is used in prophecy as a 'type' for all the ungodly nations. Proved by its use in Revelation 18:2 which is obviously about a city near the ocean, not way inland as ancient Babylon was. 

There is a need for a 360 day year. That was the length of the year pre the Exodus and will be again, because the time periods of 1260 days, 42 months and 3 1/2 years as given in Revelation and Daniel, must come to pass correctly.  Other prophesies than Isaiah 13:13 also tell of an earth moving [shifting] event. Isaiah 24:19-20, Revelation 6:14b, Joel 2:10a, Amos 9:8

You can carry on in your disbelief of what God's prophets have plainly informed us He has planned. You are an educated person, so I guess why these things are hidden from your understanding is told to us in Matthew 11:25  I am fortunate to have left college at 15 and have never been brainwashed at a Bible school or Seminary. 

 

Edited November 12, 2017 by Keras

[Retrobyter]

9 hours ago, Keras said:

I do that because what is prophesied was never properly fulfilled in ancient times and we are told in Eccl 1:9 that what has happened will again happen. Dual fulfilment is a perfectly acceptable interpretation. 

Shalom, Keras.

This is a GRAVE mistake! First of all, that is NOT a proper interpretation of Ecclesiastes 1:9!

Ecclesiastes 1:1-11
1 The words of the Preacher (Hebrew: Qohelet = an Assembler; that is, one who calls an assembly), the son of David, king in Jerusalem.
2 Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.
3 What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun? (A person's life is a net sum of $0.00; y'know, "you can't take it with you.")
4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.
5 The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose.
6 The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits.
7 All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again. (All processes of nature are cyclical. Again, they have a net value of forces that total 0.)
8 All things are full of labour; man cannot utter it (a man can't say otherwise): the eye is not satisfied with seeing, nor the ear filled with hearing.
9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. (This is about what has been created. It's GREAT against Evolution, but it's NOT about prophecy!)
10 Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.
11 There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.
KJV

THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS A "DUAL FULFILLMENT OF A PROPHECY!" There CANNOT be! How can one determine when a prophecy has been "fulfilled" if such were the case?! THINK ABOUT IT!!! I'm trying to be unkind here, but I must also be adamant on this point, otherwise there's no sense to interpreting prophecy AT ALL! God's prophecies are NOT "recycled!"

As I've noted before, people are often confusing this with the "law of Double Reference": Douglas Connelly, in his book, Bible Prophecy For Blockheads (Zondervan, Grand Rapids, MI, 2002), said on page 33,

Quote

 

Double Reference

The term "Double Reference" is used to describe a Scripture passage in which part of the passage is fulfilled at one time while another part is fulfilled at a later time. Zechariah 9:9-10 is a clear example. Verse 9 was fulfilled during Jesus' earthly ministry; verse 10 will be fulfilled at Jesus' second coming.

 

This DOES happen ... frequently! Part A of a prophecy will be fulfilled at one point on the time line, but Part B of the prophecy won't be fulfilled until a later point on the time line. And, sometimes, these two time periods could be separated by hundreds or THOUSANDS of years! However, AT NO TIME is Part A fulfilled at one point on the time line and then fulfilled a second time at a later point on the time line!

It was the "law of Double Reference" by which the children of Israel could determine if a prophecy made to them by a prophet was really from God or not! If the part that was within their lifetime came true, then the prophet was from God and one could trust the remainder of the prophecy. If the part that was within their lifetime did NOT come true, then that prophet was to be considered a FALSE prophet and was STONED TO DEATH!

Quote

Also you don't take account of Bible 'types'. Babylon is used in prophecy as a 'type' for all the ungodly nations. Proved by its use in Revelation 18:2 which is obviously about a city near the ocean, not way inland as ancient Babylon was. 

People often WORSHIP types! (I call it "typolatry.") They become so enamoured by the type that they FAIL to realize what the type is supposed to represent! Also, the Scriptures must clearly DEFINE a true "type!" One cannot just go out and make up his own types! When one does, he has entered the realm of allegorical interpretation!

Regarding the Babylon of Revelation 18:2, have you ever been to a river the size of the Euphrates or the Tigris? Just visit a river city, such as St. Louis, Missouri, on the Mississippi River! You will see that the river, even that far inland, can accomodate large ships! Usually, ships built for rivers will have a shallower keel to avoid scraping bottom in the changing river bed, but you'd be surprised by how big these ships can be and how much cargo they can haul! There are reasons why cities spring up along rivers! The Mighty Mississippi River has acted as a continental barrier for centuries, and many cities have sprung up along its length on both sides of the river, but seldom is there a city that spanned the river, appearing on both sides of the river! 

Quote

There is a need for a 360 day year. That was the length of the year pre the Exodus and will be again, because the time periods of 1260 days, 42 months and 3 1/2 years as given in Revelation and Daniel, must come to pass correctly.  Other prophesies than Isaiah 13:13 also tell of an earth moving [shifting] event. Isaiah 24:19-20, Revelation 6:14b, Joel 2:10a, Amos 9:8

Actually, there is NO need for a 360-day year! I don't know from where you get your misinformation, but AT NO TIME in history has there EVER been a 360-day year, not "pre-Exodus" or EVER! Only in modern "science" that employs the long periods of time that Evolution suggests "must have happened" do you read about how the earth is slowing down in revolutional speed around the sun. But even there, the slowing down is so gradual as to be NON-EXISTENT for modern civilizations!

Here's an article from Danny R. Faulkner, a member of ICS (the Institute for Creation Research) on this very subject. It's worth the read:

Was the year once 360 days long?

Quote

You can carry on in your disbelief of what God's prophets have plainly informed us He has planned. You are an educated person, so I guess why these things are hidden from your understanding is told to us in Matthew 11:25  I am fortunate to have left college at 15 and have never been brainwashed at a Bible school or Seminary. 

"Fortunate"?! No, education is a chance for us to be EXPOSED to various things; so, we can decide which way we would like to go in life. It's a way for God to INCREASE the range of possibilities for us so that we can choose to go in the direction HE wants us to go! Education is God's GIFT to us to allow us the freedom to choose the way that we are naturally inclined to go, which is the best way that HE has designed for us to be. You've already been brainwashed AGAINST Bible Schools and Seminaries, and that's NOT a good thing!

Matthew 11:25 is NOT a "rule of thumb" to go by! It was important for the day and age in which the Messiah came to His people, the children of Y'hudah, but it's NOT to be taken as a permanent policy any more than "All Christians should be poor!"

Your idea of what the prophets have "PLAINLY informed us [God] has planned" is flawed because you're not willing to see anything other than what you WANT to see.