Adam and Eve as Genealogical vs Genetic Ancestors

[Guest shiloh357]

15 minutes ago, SkyWriting said:

Exactly.   And that's why I object to the young earth creationist position,
which I no longer hold. 

Simple reading says the earth is ancient, the Garden of Eden seems old, Adam seems old, Eve seems aged, every thing mentioned in scripture has the appearance of age, so I expect the cosmos to look ancient as well.  An ancient Cosmos is biblical. So it's no surprise that is what people believe. 

 

You reject YEC because you claim it is based on man's standards, but accept OEC because man's standards show the earth is not young?

Your problem is that you cannot find anywhere in the Bible where "ancient" means millions or billions of years.   You are applying your own subjective opinion and speculation and are trying to define the Bible in that manner?

Why do you think that the Bible should be subservient to man?   Who gives you the right to sit in judgment on Scripture?

16 minutes ago, SkyWriting said:

So then you never tried to determine the correct age yourself?   That's pretty sketchy for truth.

 

 

I simply go by what Scripture says.  I don't have to know the exact age.  But I know from Scripture that the earth is not millions or billions of years old.  The Bible doesn't give us enough light on the precise age, but it gives us enough light to know that the earth is thousands, not billions of years old.

8 minutes ago, SkyWriting said:

Sure, he gave one blind man eyes.  Likely, and exam would show age appropriate eyes on that man. 

We can expect the Cosmos to look old. 

Where does it say that God gave him blind eyes??

Looking old and being old are too different things.   Appearance is a very unreliable standard for determining age.    Adam was created as a fully functional adult, but in Genesis 1, was not "old." 

[SkyWriting]

5 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

You reject YEC because you claim it is based on man's standards, but accept OEC because man's standards show the earth is not young?

I have rejected YEC becasue it TRIES to claim the earth looks young.  But the earth does not look young.

And scripture SAYS it's ancient, and the "Animals were brought before Adam".  He was "some age"
when he named them and they were "Some Age" when they walked before him.
Everything described in scripture has the appearance of age, and YEC's need to accept that
all of Creation will have the appearance of Great age.  I did and I'm much happier, even 
though Ken Ham, who signed my bible, is sad about that. 

Edited November 6, 2017 by SkyWriting

[SkyWriting]

13 minutes ago, Sojourner414 said:

No, He healed the eyes of that man; Scripture doesn't say Jesus gave him brand new ones,  so that "argument" falls flat on its' face.

I'm not arguing anything. I'm explaining why I've left the YEC position. Due to what Henry Morris taught me. 
I have no complaint against people who hold the YEC position.  How can I?  I used to be there myself. 

It took over a decade for me to move forward. 

Edited November 6, 2017 by SkyWriting

[Guest shiloh357]

1 minute ago, SkyWriting said:

I have rejected YEC becasue it TRIES to claim the earth looks young.  But the earth does not look young.

It doesn't look millions or billions of years old, though.

Quote

And scripture SAYS it's ancient, and the "Animals were brought before Adam".  He was "some age"
when he named them and they were "Some Age" when they walked before him.
Everything described in scripture has the appearance of age, and YEC's need to accept that
all of Creation will have the appearance of Great age. 

When the animals were brought before Adam, they were only about day or two old.  Genesis 1-2 cover seven days.

You are assuming the earth is of great age.   You have not shows that the Bible shows an earth of great age.  You are trying to pencil YOUR subjective speculation into the text of Scritpure, in an attempt to make it mean what you want it to mean.

[SkyWriting]

27 minutes ago, Sojourner414 said:

It documents from one person to the next, listing when the person was born and how long they lived until their child was born.

If Adam lived a certain time until his child was born, then you count the years from when that child was born until their own child was born, that's a reliable standard. That gives a pretty solid timeline that you cannot debate, and is reinforced by the genealogy listed in Luke.

Sorry... you're out cold on that one. And when it comes to Scripture being literal, your "quarrel" would be with the Lord. 

 As long as you agree it is not documenting each person who has lived, then we have no quarrel.

[SkyWriting]

32 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

You are assuming the earth is of great age.   You have not shows that the Bible shows an earth of great age.  You are trying to pencil YOUR subjective speculation into the text of Scritpure, in an attempt to make it mean what you want it to mean.

Scripture says "everlasting" and "perpetual" which I don't object to or wish to modify.

from adah
Definition
perpetuity
NASB Translation
all (1), continually (1), Eternal (1), ever (15), forever (26), forever* (1), forevermore* (2), old (1), perpetual (1).

 

olam: long duration, antiquity, futurity

Original Word: עוֹלָם
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: olam (Genesis 3:22)
Phonetic Spelling: (o-lawm')
Short Definition: forever

NAS Exhaustive Concordance

Word Origin
from an unused word
Definition
long duration, antiquity, futurity
NASB Translation
ages (1), all successive (1), always (1), ancient (13), ancient times (3), continual (1), days of old (1), eternal (2), eternity (3), ever (10), Everlasting (2), everlasting (110), forever (136), forever and ever (1), forever* (70), forevermore* (1), lasting (1), long (2), long ago (3), long past (1), long time (3), never* (17), old (11), permanent (10), permanently (1), perpetual (29), perpetually (1).

 

 

Edited November 6, 2017 by SkyWriting

[Guest shiloh357]

19 minutes ago, SkyWriting said:

Scripture says "everlasting" and "perpetual" which I don't object to or wish to modify.

from adah
Definition
perpetuity
NASB Translation
all (1), continually (1), Eternal (1), ever (15), forever (26), forever* (1), forevermore* (2), old (1), perpetual (1).

 

olam: long duration, antiquity, futurity

Original Word: עוֹלָם
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: olam (Genesis 3:22)
Phonetic Spelling: (o-lawm')
Short Definition: forever

NAS Exhaustive Concordance

Word Origin
from an unused word
Definition
long duration, antiquity, futurity
NASB Translation
ages (1), all successive (1), always (1), ancient (13), ancient times (3), continual (1), days of old (1), eternal (2), eternity (3), ever (10), Everlasting (2), everlasting (110), forever (136), forever and ever (1), forever* (70), forevermore* (1), lasting (1), long (2), long ago (3), long past (1), long time (3), never* (17), old (11), permanent (10), permanently (1), perpetual (29), perpetually (1).

 

 

The way a word is used is more important than it's actual definition.   This is true even in English.   The texts you refer to were not establishing the age of the earth, but were simply hyperbolic references meant assist in making a larger point.

You apparently have no skill in hermeneutics.

[Enoch2021]

6 hours ago, SkyWriting said:

 

Science goes by looks for determining if time has passed. 

 

What on Earth?? 

1.  "Science" isn't an ENTITY or a result, It's a Method; The Scientific Method.  "Science doesn't: "GOES BY", say, jump, run, swim, point to, or do the hokey pokey.  To do such things takes, Sentience, Prescience, and Intelligence...to be ALIVE.  Science isn't ALIVE, Ergo...Reification Fallacy.

2.  "Scientists" 'goes by' The Scientific Method:

The Scientific Method:
Step 1: Observe a Phenomenon
Step 2: Lit Review
Step 3: Hypothesis
Step 4: TEST/EXPERIMENT
Step 5: Analyze Data
Step 6: Valid/Invalid Hypothesis
Step 7: Report Results

Any 5th Grade General Science Graduate knows Prima Facia, that ALL "Dating Methods" are OUTSIDE of The Scientific Method; "The Method's" Purview.
You have NO....: "Independent Variable", so as to Form a Valid Scientific Hypothesis to TEST then VALIDATE your PREDICTION. Ahhh... "SCIENCE" !

a. So "Independent Variables" are the "Input" (The Cause) that is CHANGED "manipulated by the scientist" so as to measure/validate the "Output" (The Effect) "Dependent Variables"---Predictions.

b. "Independent Variables" are sine qua non (indispensable, as it were) to Scientific Hypothesis construction, then Ipso Facto Experiments!! So can you please elaborate: 
How on Earth can you CHANGE the "INPUT" and TEST your Prediction on a Past Event (lol) without a Time Machine, Pray Tell....?

You're in a simple Category Error. The Scientific Method is used to Validate "Cause and Effect" Relationships...it's Non Sequitur (Fallacy) to use it to extrapolate "age".
It's tantamount to using a Framing Square to calculate the GNP of the Netherlands, for goodness sakes. 

 

ps. Your claim here is a Screaming "TELL" that you wouldn't know what ACTUAL "Science" was if it landed on your head, spun around, and whistled dixie.

 

regards

[simplejeff]

1 hour ago, Enoch2021 said:

What on Earth??

The description Yahweh gives through Yeshua ,  through the messengers of the Gospel,

includes this brief description of 'society' "on earth" (which is comprehensive and includes so-called 'science' of all mankind) :

summary: 'science' is virtually and practically all under the control of the enemy,

and Salvation in Jesus is only way out - the only way to be set free from the complete deception involved in it.

Salvation for the "few who find the narrow road to life" by Yahweh's Grace.....

Salvation seen as ever and even GREATER than ever before , as the evil in society that we are saved from is exposed more :

"That He might deliver us from this present evil world. Deliver is the translation of exaireo (¦îáéñåï) which means to pluck out, to draw out, to rescue, to deliver. The word strikes the keynote of the letter. The gospel is a rescue, an emanicipation from a state of bondage. The word here denotes, not a removal from, but a rescue from the power of the ethical characteristics of the present age. World is from aionos (áÆïíïò) which Trench defines as follows: “All that floating mass of thoughts, opinions, maxims, speculations, hopes, impulses, aims, aspirations, at any time current in the world, which it may be impossible to seize and accurately define, but which constitute a most real and effective power, being the moral or immoral atmosphere which at every moment of our lives we inhale, again inevitably to exhale.” It is that particular phase of human society, the one which our Lord found existing when He came the first time, which He will still find existing when He comes the second time, and which will be displaced by a new order of things in the Millennium. The word present is used twice elsewhere where it is applied to things existing, by way of contrast to things future (Rom. 8:38; I Cor. 3:22).
The word evil is not from kakos (êáêïò) here but poneros (ðïíåñïò). In the latter word, the positive activity of evil comes out far more decidedly than in the former. The kakos (êáêïò) man may be content to perish in his own corruption, but the poneros (ðïíåñïò) man is not content unless he is corrupting others as well, and drawing them into the same destruction with himself. Satan is not called the kakos (êáêïò) one but the poneros (ðïíåñïò) one. This present age is described by Paul as poneros (ðïíåñïò). The English word which best translate this Greek word is pernicious.
Webster says, “That is pernicious which works mischief or destruction.” This present age therefore is not content to perish in its own corruption, but seeks to drag all men with it down to its own inevitable destruction. The outstanding philosophy of religion of this present pernicious age is, that acceptance with Deity is by means of the good works of the individual. Every system of religion except that in the Bible bases salvation upon the good works of the worshipper. The Judaizers were part of this present evil age. Their system, not content with dragging down its own devotees to destruction, was attempting to pull down the Christian Church with it. Paul says that the substitutionary atonement of the Lord Jesus is that which will rescue the poor lost sinner from the clutches of the pernicious teaching of the Judaizers. According to the will of God and our Father. But Paul hastens to add that the act of Christ rescuing us is not according to our plan, or in proportion to our legal obedience or because of any quality in us, but according to the Father’s sovereign will which is the standard of all the process of redemption. This rescue therefore is according to the procedure prescribed by Him. All of which means that the salvation procured on the Cross for us by our Lord is to be received by faith aside from any merit of our own. We cannot earn what Christ procured for us. Salvation is given free, gratis, as a gift.

Translation.    Who gave Himself in behalf of our sins so that He might rescue us out from this present pernicious age, according to the will of our God and Father."

(from Galatians,  WUEST Expanded Greek pdf online)

[Enoch2021]

30 minutes ago, simplejeff said:

The description Yahweh gives through Yeshua ,  through the messengers of the Gospel,

includes this brief description of 'society' "on earth" (which is comprehensive and includes so-called 'science' of all mankind) :

summary: 'science' is virtually and practically all under the control of the enemy,

and Salvation in Jesus is only way out - the only way to be set free from the complete deception involved in it.

Salvation for the "few who find the narrow road to life" by Yahweh's Grace.....

Salvation seen as ever and even GREATER than ever before , as the evil in society that we are saved from is exposed more :

"That He might deliver us from this present evil world. Deliver is the translation of exaireo (¦îáéñåï) which means to pluck out, to draw out, to rescue, to deliver. The word strikes the keynote of the letter. The gospel is a rescue, an emanicipation from a state of bondage. The word here denotes, not a removal from, but a rescue from the power of the ethical characteristics of the present age. World is from aionos (áÆïíïò) which Trench defines as follows: “All that floating mass of thoughts, opinions, maxims, speculations, hopes, impulses, aims, aspirations, at any time current in the world, which it may be impossible to seize and accurately define, but which constitute a most real and effective power, being the moral or immoral atmosphere which at every moment of our lives we inhale, again inevitably to exhale.” It is that particular phase of human society, the one which our Lord found existing when He came the first time, which He will still find existing when He comes the second time, and which will be displaced by a new order of things in the Millennium. The word present is used twice elsewhere where it is applied to things existing, by way of contrast to things future (Rom. 8:38; I Cor. 3:22).
The word evil is not from kakos (êáêïò) here but poneros (ðïíåñïò). In the latter word, the positive activity of evil comes out far more decidedly than in the former. The kakos (êáêïò) man may be content to perish in his own corruption, but the poneros (ðïíåñïò) man is not content unless he is corrupting others as well, and drawing them into the same destruction with himself. Satan is not called the kakos (êáêïò) one but the poneros (ðïíåñïò) one. This present age is described by Paul as poneros (ðïíåñïò). The English word which best translate this Greek word is pernicious.
Webster says, “That is pernicious which works mischief or destruction.” This present age therefore is not content to perish in its own corruption, but seeks to drag all men with it down to its own inevitable destruction. The outstanding philosophy of religion of this present pernicious age is, that acceptance with Deity is by means of the good works of the individual. Every system of religion except that in the Bible bases salvation upon the good works of the worshipper. The Judaizers were part of this present evil age. Their system, not content with dragging down its own devotees to destruction, was attempting to pull down the Christian Church with it. Paul says that the substitutionary atonement of the Lord Jesus is that which will rescue the poor lost sinner from the clutches of the pernicious teaching of the Judaizers. According to the will of God and our Father. But Paul hastens to add that the act of Christ rescuing us is not according to our plan, or in proportion to our legal obedience or because of any quality in us, but according to the Father’s sovereign will which is the standard of all the process of redemption. This rescue therefore is according to the procedure prescribed by Him. All of which means that the salvation procured on the Cross for us by our Lord is to be received by faith aside from any merit of our own. We cannot earn what Christ procured for us. Salvation is given free, gratis, as a gift.

Translation.    Who gave Himself in behalf of our sins so that He might rescue us out from this present pernicious age, according to the will of our God and Father."

(from Galatians,  WUEST Expanded Greek pdf online)

I was responding to 'SkyWriting' who opined...

1 hour ago, Enoch2021 said:

8 hours ago, SkyWriting said:

Science goes by looks for determining if time has passed. 

Other than your response: 'science' is virtually and practically all under the control of the enemy" (which I'll PUMMEL here in a moment AND has nothing to do with my response either), what was the point of your half a page treatise??

 

Quote

'science' is virtually and practically all under the control of the enemy

Pseudo-Science is under the control of the enemy, these guys: astronomy, astrophysics, cosmology, paleontology, geology, anthropology, archaeology, evolutionary biology (lol), theoretical physics.

Science -- The Scientific Method, isn't under anyone's control.

 

regards