inchrist Posted December 4, 2017 Group: Non-Trinitarian Followers: 3 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 3,490 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 88 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/29/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted December 4, 2017 1 minute ago, enoob57 said: Since the whole of Scripture demonstrates the separation of light and darkness, Heaven and hell, good and evil, blessing and cursing, Righteousness and sin... it is really a no brainer. And you get life and life? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted December 4, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,183 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,459 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Online Birthday: 07/27/1957 Author Share Posted December 4, 2017 7 minutes ago, inchrist said: And you get life and life? Not according to Scripture If death is sessation of exist then the term second death would not be possible... yet here it is Revelation 2:11 (KJV) [11] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. It’s almost a pointless ramble as the account of Lazarus and the rich man fully allude to torment after first death.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inchrist Posted December 4, 2017 Group: Non-Trinitarian Followers: 3 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 3,490 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 88 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/29/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted December 4, 2017 36 minutes ago, Yowm said: Not sure what you mean as the rich man had not yet been destroyed. And he was about too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inchrist Posted December 4, 2017 Group: Non-Trinitarian Followers: 3 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 3,490 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 88 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/29/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted December 4, 2017 31 minutes ago, Yowm said: No, it is speaking in the future, forever and ever is not confined to the bowl judgments.. Revelation 14:11 KJVS [11] And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Then we must conclude angels will be standing watching the sinners tormented for all eternity. Yet as you know they will be doing any things. Further the language is describing the bowl judgments, cup of wrath? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inchrist Posted December 4, 2017 Group: Non-Trinitarian Followers: 3 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 3,490 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 88 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/29/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted December 4, 2017 1 minute ago, Yowm said: Where in the passage does it say that? Luke 16:23&24....thats infront of the judgment seat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inchrist Posted December 4, 2017 Group: Non-Trinitarian Followers: 3 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 3,490 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 88 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/29/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted December 4, 2017 34 minutes ago, enoob57 said: Not according to Scripture Not according to scripture.... John 3:16—"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life It certainly doesnt state "...whoever believes in Him shall not have everlasting life in torment. Scripture states Perish, you state never perish. John 4:14—"...but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life." John 5:24—"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." Who ever believes in Christ passes out of death into life.....I dont see anywhere where it states sinners will pass out of death into life of torture. "Eternal life" and "life" are associated strictly with the righteous. John 6:47—"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life." John 6:54—"He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day." John 6:68—"and Simon Peter answered Him, 'Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.'" John 10:28—"and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand." Rom 5:21—"so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Dont see any teaching of sinners receiving eternal life. Lets have a look at the concept of immortality Rom 2:6-7—"[God] will render to each person according to his deeds: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life..." Dont see the gift of immortality giving to the wicked What do the wicked get? Hebrews 10:26-27—"If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consumethe enemies of God." Psalms 9:5—"You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked; you have blotted out their name for ever and ever." Sorry but God is not endlessly vindictive 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inchrist Posted December 4, 2017 Group: Non-Trinitarian Followers: 3 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 3,490 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 88 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/29/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted December 4, 2017 45 minutes ago, Yowm said: Forever and ever bowl judgments? Hope not. There's nothing in the text that says the angels will be watching, only in the presence, which indicates the angels have access. (1) … drink of the wine of the wrath of God… (2) … cup of his indignation… (3) … who worship the beast… (4) …and his image… Isaiah 34:2, 8-10 (2) For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter. (8) For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion. (9) And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. (10) It shall not be quenched night nor day; thesmoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever. As you can see John uses the same language as Isaiah. However Isaiah's ckntext is edom Now watch this.... Isaiah 34:13-15 (13) And thorns shall come up in her palaces, nettles and brambles in the fortresses thereof: and it shall be an habitation of dragons, and a court for owls. (14) The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a placeof rest. (15) There shall the great owl make her nest, and lay, and hatch, and gather under her shadow: there shall the vultures also be gathered, every one with her mate. First Isaiah described smoke rising up for ever and ever on edom. Then literally disappeared in verses 13-15 and describes a desert. Notice a pattern, smoke rising for "ever and ever" then a complete change in the environment its now a desert. No smoke. Like wise john has smoke rising for ever and ever and then a complete change in environment, new heaven and new earth. Same language with Sodom and gomorrah Genesis 19:24-28 (24) Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven; (25) And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground. (26) But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt. (27) And Abraham gat up early in the morning to the place where he stood before the LORD: (28) And he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain, and beheld, and, lo, the smoke of the countrywent up as the smoke of a furnace. (1) Brimstone and fire (2) Fire (3) Smoke (4) went up And the forever and ever? Jude 1:7 (7) Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. As you can see, sodom and Gomorrah isnt still burning is it? Peter tells us that they became ashes. 2 Peter 2:6. Lets rather have scripture interpret scripture....since you should be well aware John uses languages from the OT particularly from Isaiah 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inchrist Posted December 4, 2017 Group: Non-Trinitarian Followers: 3 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 3,490 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 88 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/29/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted December 4, 2017 44 minutes ago, Yowm said: Luke 16:23-24 KJVS [23] And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. [24] And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. Tthere is nothing about being destroyed /annihilated in that passage. Maybe we are speaking past each other on two different topics? No we speaking the same topic, perhaps you can point out at what point did the richman receive an immortal body? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted December 4, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,183 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,459 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Online Birthday: 07/27/1957 Author Share Posted December 4, 2017 2 hours ago, inchrist said: Not according to scripture.... John 3:16—"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life It certainly doesnt state "...whoever believes in Him shall not have everlasting life in torment. Scripture states Perish, you state never perish This is a poor hermeneutic process... the entire Word of God is needed to know a subject 2 Timothy 3:16-17 (KJV) [16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 hours ago, inchrist said: Who ever believes in Christ passes out of death into life.....I dont see anywhere where it states sinners will pass out of death into life of torture. "Eternal life" and "life" are associated strictly with the righteous. John 6:47—"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life." John 6:54—"He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day." John 6:68—"and Simon Peter answered Him, 'Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.'" John 10:28—"and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand." Rom 5:21—"so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Dont see any teaching of sinners receiving eternal life. Lets have a look at the concept of immortality Rom 2:6-7—"[God] will render to each person according to his deeds: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life..." Dont see the gift of immortality giving to the wicked What do the wicked get? Hebrews 10:26-27—"If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consumethe enemies of God." Psalms 9:5—"You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked; you have blotted out their name for ever and ever." Sorry but God is not endlessly vindictive Defining terms Biblically will encompass the whole of God’s Word not just a portion and ignoring others... the account of Lazarus should be enough for anyone, even the novice, to understand the dynamics of existence past this exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inchrist Posted December 4, 2017 Group: Non-Trinitarian Followers: 3 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 3,490 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 88 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/29/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted December 4, 2017 1 hour ago, Yowm said: That is not the question I posed. I am asking 'when does the destruction of the person happen after a period of torment?' After the judgment. This is what you are failing to notice, my question to you leads to my answer to your question. The rich man was not raised immortal. Immortality is only given to the righteous. 1 Corinthians 15:53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality Proverbs 12:28 In the way of righteousness there is life; along that path is immortality ............ So the Richman being resurrected was not tortured in burning flames forever and ever as he does not have immortality. The lake of fire does not give life. It is not the tree of life or the book of life. The torment the richman was experiencing was his judgment to the lake of fire. Seeing the lake of fire tormented him. The Greek word translated "torments" in verse 23 is basanos. From Friberg's Analytical Lexicon of the Greek New Testament: basanois which is a form of the noun basanos, means, "strictly, a touchstone for testing the genuineness of metals by rubbing against it..." From the Greek-English Keyword Concordance, torment, literally a touchstone, used to test metals for alloys, [and] then the examination of persons by torture The Richman was being tested and proved through chastisement. Also please notice luke 16:24 for I am tormented in this flame. Is singular, the flame is not in plural in the greek to be flames. You would expect if he was in the lake of fire to be in flames not flame Further in luke 16:24 tormented is odunaó in the greek, totally different greek word for the torment youre thinking of. HELPS Word-studies 3600 odynáō (from 3601 /odýnē, "verypainful sorrow") – properly, to experience intense emotional pain Seeing what his judgment was going to be was the torment, the flame was the testing and trail of his judgement and emotional anguish of what the out come of his judgment was going to be After judgment then the wicked are thrown into the lake of fire. Rev 20,The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hadesgave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. That is the point at which annihilation occurs. Because there is no life..... It is not called the lake of fire and life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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