Guest shiloh357 Posted March 26, 2018 Share Posted March 26, 2018 2 minutes ago, Still Alive said: I agree completely with the first part of your first sentence. The rest is an interpretation I agreed with for almost 30 years, but one with which I've strongly disagreed for about nine years - based on the content of the first part of your first sentence. And the evidence is overwhelming. But I think I'm hijacking the thread. I may need to start a thread on this: Believe What the Jewish Apostles Taught, Not What the Greek Philosophers Taught You do that. I will just continue to place my faith in the pure and Holy Word of God that teaches an eternal Hell/Lake of Fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted March 26, 2018 Share Posted March 26, 2018 2 minutes ago, Still Alive said: I was merely disagreeing with your argument that there is no "hyper literal". It was your first point. There is. Just because you can use google to find people who agree with you, doesn't mean that either you or they, are correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Still Alive Posted March 26, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,024 Content Per Day: 1.33 Reputation: 1,224 Days Won: 3 Joined: 02/05/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted March 26, 2018 3 minutes ago, shiloh357 said: What people incorrectly call "hyper-literal" (which is often used to cast aspersion on a literal interpretations of Scripture) is what we call, "face value" where someone is speaking metaphorically, but the metaphor is not recognized. Too often, "hyper-literal" is inappropriately applied to people who believe in things like a 6 day creation, or a global flood, etc. Jesus said that if your right eye offends you, pluck it out and if your right hand offends you, cut it off. Was Jesus saying that when we sin we have to maim ourselves? No, we understand that Jesus was speaking metaphorically about getting things our of our lives that hinder our walk with the Lord. Face-value is a wooden, surface attempt to read the Bible without any kind of intelligent thoughtfulness. Jesus said that He is the door of the sheep. He didn't mean that He is a piece of wood with hinges. Other than the disagreement we have about "hyperliteral", we're completely on the same page. Strongly so to the point that what you said in what I quote is something I "preach" to anyone who will listen. The bible is written for human beings, by human beings (inspired by God) at a human level. We need not parse words - in the spiritual milk stage. But later, as one begins to understand the holistic message of the bible and what it teaches of the personality of God, one does need to determine, especially when a scripture appears to be in violation of that personality, get "into the weeds" regarding the original text/language and context. i.e. who was this written/spoken to at the time? What would have been their interpretation? Etc. This thought process when I left spiritual milk is what changed my opinion on many things I'd been taught about the bible for decades. Prayerful reading and studying has great value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Still Alive Posted March 26, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,024 Content Per Day: 1.33 Reputation: 1,224 Days Won: 3 Joined: 02/05/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted March 26, 2018 5 minutes ago, shiloh357 said: I will label it that way, because it is liberals who reject the text of Scripture and want to redefine key theological terms to insulate their unbelief. What is a liberal? And who is trying to redefine terms? Who turned Gehenna into Hell? Who redefined "death" to mean something other than dying? It's stuff like that. And when you consider the definitions as they "fit" the personality of the God of both covenants, it becomes easier to interpret, well, better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Still Alive Posted March 26, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,024 Content Per Day: 1.33 Reputation: 1,224 Days Won: 3 Joined: 02/05/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted March 26, 2018 8 minutes ago, shiloh357 said: When it comes to the Bible, liberal approach NEVER leads to the truth. With that I strongly disagree. lib·er·al ˈlib(ə)rəl/Submit adjective 1. open to new behavior or opinions and willing to discard traditional values. "they have more liberal views toward marriage and divorce than some people" 2. (of education) concerned mainly with broadening a person's general knowledge and experience, rather than with technical or professional training. Both of these describe the teaching of both Christ and His Apostles, as they pertained to what the leadership of the day were teaching. That's why they Killed Jesus in the first place. I left the quote in regarding marriage because, though I DO believe you can go too far, even Jesus threw out what Jewish leadership was teaching about divorce. And he was no fan of traditions of men, which we are steeped in, religiously, these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Still Alive Posted March 26, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,024 Content Per Day: 1.33 Reputation: 1,224 Days Won: 3 Joined: 02/05/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted March 26, 2018 (edited) 6 hours ago, Still Alive said: Can't delete duplicate post so... Edited March 26, 2018 by Still Alive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Still Alive Posted March 26, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,024 Content Per Day: 1.33 Reputation: 1,224 Days Won: 3 Joined: 02/05/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted March 26, 2018 12 minutes ago, shiloh357 said: Just because you can use google to find people who agree with you, doesn't mean that either you or they, are correct. I'm having a hard time digesting that. My link sends you to actual dictionaries. In western civilization we have used dictionaries to define words for most of the western world's recorded history. The bible uses words as defined in the dictionary, as do all written things. If we can't come to a consensus on what a particular word means, we have no common ground on which to discuss a subject. It would be an exercise in futility and meaningful communication would be impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Still Alive Posted March 26, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,024 Content Per Day: 1.33 Reputation: 1,224 Days Won: 3 Joined: 02/05/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted March 26, 2018 15 minutes ago, shiloh357 said: You do that. I will just continue to place my faith in the pure and Holy Word of God that teaches an eternal Hell/Lake of Fire. It does? I disagree. But the good news is that we are both putting our faith in the Word of God. We just seem to interpret some parts differently.:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted March 26, 2018 Share Posted March 26, 2018 10 minutes ago, Still Alive said: What is a liberal? And who is trying to redefine terms? Who turned Gehenna into Hell? Who redefined "death" to mean something other than dying? It's stuff like that. And when you consider the definitions as they "fit" the personality of the God of both covenants, it becomes easier to interpret, well, better. No one turned Gehenna into Hell. Jesus simply used Gehenna as a point of comparison. No one redefined death, either. You are making a lot of nonsensical claims. 5 minutes ago, Still Alive said: With that I strongly disagree. lib·er·al ˈlib(ə)rəl/Submit adjective 1. open to new behavior or opinions and willing to discard traditional values. "they have more liberal views toward marriage and divorce than some people" 2. (of education) concerned mainly with broadening a person's general knowledge and experience, rather than with technical or professional training. Both of these describe the teaching of both Christ and His Apostles, as they pertained to what the leadership of the day were teaching. That's why they Killed Jesus in the first place. I left the quote in regarding marriage because, though I DO believe you can go too far, even Jesus threw out what Jewish leadership was teaching about divorce. And he was no fan of traditions of men, which we are steeped in, religiously, these days. No, Jesus was not discarding traditional values. Jesus bucked against the liberal excess of Pharisees who perverted Scripture to create loopholes for themselves to violate the laws of God without a penalty. Jesus was not against traditions; Jesus was against the way traditions had been used to circumvent and/or cancel out the Word of God. The traditions were not the problem, the way they had been abused and misused was the problem. Jesus still participated in many of the traditions, but He did not spare criticism for those who misused them. 1 minute ago, Still Alive said: I'm having a hard time digesting that. My link sends you to actual dictionaries. In western civilization we have used dictionaries to define words for most of the western world's recorded history. The bible uses words as defined in the dictionary, as do all written things. If we can't come to a consensus on what a particular word means, we have no common ground on which to discuss a subject. It would be an exercise in futility and meaningful communication would be impossible. I am not saying that the terms don't exist. I am saying that when it comes to interpretation, there is no such thing as "hyper-literal." It is a term that is used today in place of "face-value." If I were to take Jesus at "face-value," I would believe that we are supposed to maim our bodies every time we sin. When we take the Bible literally, we are understanding it the way the author intended. You cannot "hyper" that. The whole reason we "interpret" anything is to get at the literal meaning. There is no other rational reason to interpret any text other than to understand it in the light that the author intends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted March 26, 2018 Share Posted March 26, 2018 9 minutes ago, Still Alive said: It does? I disagree. But the good news is that we are both putting our faith in the Word of God. We just seem to interpret some parts differently.:) No, if you are believing that Hell is not eternal, then you are not believing the Bible in that area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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