enoob57 Posted July 31, 2018 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,191 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,469 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted July 31, 2018 On 6/11/2018 at 9:24 AM, pgardner2358 said: What can we deduce logically with regards to how life in general, and man in particular have gotten here? Remember that man has free will and that entails certain ramifications necessary to prevent undue influence of that free will. The very begin of this thought process begins with error... There exists only One Will that is everlasting and that is God's Will and so this being the reality -thus- the freedom is to be in that will or not … but with is the only that proceeds into eternity with 'Will' / not with proceeds into void of suffering without will... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siegi91 Posted September 1, 2018 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 12 Topic Count: 35 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,802 Content Per Day: 1.19 Reputation: 249 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/04/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted September 1, 2018 On 7/31/2018 at 10:45 AM, shiloh357 said: But that kind of "determinism" removes the need for moral accountability, or any objective standard of right and wrong. My decisions were not really mine. They were already determined. I am only doing what was determined I would do. Yes, and? Moral accountability is a tool that we probably evolved to stabilize populations. It does not need to have any metaphysical value. The same with remorse, anger, revenge, feelings of retaliation, need for justice, etc, are, in my opinion, evolutionary traits that have been probably selected for survival. I would expect that without them, our species will become very unstable. So, the sense of "sin", or of what is right or wrong, we developed, is probably mainly a wiring of neurons in a certain way in order to favor the long term survival of our genes, and has therefore no other extra biological meaning, independently from how strong we feel it when we experience it psychologically. However, if you think about it, even if the decisions were not determined, they must come from somewhere. There must be a chain of causality that leads to that first decision of mine to, say, eat pizza today. Or do you think that it popped out without a cause? Siegi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soul Reaper Posted September 1, 2018 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 59 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/28/2018 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/24/1994 Share Posted September 1, 2018 (edited) 11 minutes ago, siegi91 said: Yes, and? Moral accountability is a tool that we probably evolved to stabilize populations. It does not need to have any metaphysical value. The same with remorse, anger, revenge, feelings of retaliation, need for justice, etc, are, in my opinion, evolutionary traits that have been probably selected for survival. I would expect that without them, our species will become very unstable. So, the sense of "sin", or of what is right or wrong, we developed, is probably mainly a wiring of neurons in a certain way in order to favor the long term survival of our genes, and has therefore no other extra biological meaning, independently from how strong we feel it when we experience it psychologically. However, if you think about it, even if the decisions were not determined, they must come from somewhere. There must be a chain of causality that leads to that first decision of mine to, say, eat pizza today. Or do you think that it popped out without a cause? Siegi According to such logic Hitler was not a bad guy , he simply wanted to evolve his whole nation Germany over all other nations so the more fit animals eating the weak but on bigger scale . Chineese thought like that and they tested thier bio weapons and drugs on people they did not consider human beings like they would test this stuff on any other animal . If you are for stronger eating weak you share similar values as Adolf Hitler . Edited September 1, 2018 by Soul Reaper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 1 hour ago, siegi91 said: Yes, and? Moral accountability is a tool that we probably evolved to stabilize populations. History tells us that is not true. Quote It does not need to have any metaphysical value. The same with remorse, anger, revenge, feelings of retaliation, need for justice, etc, are, in my opinion, evolutionary traits that have been probably selected for survival. If you are an atheist, none of that should matter. If we are simply a collection of molecules and chemicals, justice, right and wrong, etc. should not even occur to us. Quote I would expect that without them, our species will become very unstable. So, the sense of "sin", or of what is right or wrong, we developed, is probably mainly a wiring of neurons in a certain way in order to favor the long term survival of our genes, and has therefore no other extra biological meaning, independently from how strong we feel it when we experience it psychologically. "Sin" and "right and wrong" are not the same thing. There is nothing stable about humanity as it is. Again, we should have no sense of morality if we are nothing but physical beings. There is no reason for murder to be wrong if we are just animals. Someone should be able to beat your children or any other loved ones to death and you should have no sense of injustice about it. You should not feel that any wrong has been committed, that is all just a part of the evolutionary process. It should mean nothing to you as a purely physical being. Quote However, if you think about it, even if the decisions were not determined, they must come from somewhere. There must be a chain of causality that leads to that first decision of mine to, say, eat pizza today. Or do you think that it popped out without a cause? How about you simply felt like you were in the mood for pizza? Why does that decision have to be predetermined? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siegi91 Posted September 1, 2018 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 12 Topic Count: 35 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,802 Content Per Day: 1.19 Reputation: 249 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/04/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted September 1, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, shiloh357 said: If you are an atheist, none of that should matter. If we are simply a collection of molecules and chemicals, justice, right and wrong, etc. should not even occur to us. "Sin" and "right and wrong" are not the same thing. There is nothing stable about humanity as it is. Again, we should have no sense of morality if we are nothing but physical beings. There is no reason for murder to be wrong if we are just animals. Someone should be able to beat your children or any other loved ones to death and you should have no sense of injustice about it. You should not feel that any wrong has been committed, that is all just a part of the evolutionary process. It should mean nothing to you as a purely physical being. How about you simply felt like you were in the mood for pizza? Why does that decision have to be predetermined? Well, it does matter to me because that ca 1000 grams of grey/white blob in its skull that computes things make it very real. And there is nothing I (it) can do about it. I am also very upset when I hear reports of rape, violence, injustice, etc. However, that is the brain doing that. I see no reason to promote my biological responses to anything metaphysical and universal for which there is no evidence. Like pain. I believe there is not such a thing like an objective and universal pain that goes beyond our biology. Nevertheless, it hurts. And about the pizza. How did I feel in the mood for pizza? Suppose it is not pre-determined. Where does it come from? Is it a random fluctuation in my brain states that is not reducible to any prior event? So what? Am I still accountable for breaking my diet because the event was random instead of being predetermined? And if it is neither determined nor random, what is it? Something that begins to exist without any explanation at all? siegi Edited September 1, 2018 by siegi91 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 34 minutes ago, siegi91 said: Well, it does matter to me because that ca 1000 grams of grey/white blob in its skull that computes things make it very real. As an atheist, you have no right to even question what is right and wrong or wonder about self-evident truth like freedom, equality, liberty. If we are just molecules and chemicals, if we are just higher animals, then none of that should matter to us anymore than to a cocker spaniel. But that fact that we do, demonstrates that we are more than higher animals. There is far more to humanity than atheists think. Quote And there is nothing I (it) can do about it. I am also very upset when I hear reports of rape, violence, injustice, etc. However, that is the brain doing that. I see no reason to promote my biological responses to anything metaphysical and universal for which there is no evidence. Those are not biological responses. That such injustice upsets you is evidence that you are made in God's image. Humanity reflects the image of the Creator in that we want to build, invent fashion/form, discover, etc. The fact that we seek fairness, justice, the fact that we create medicines to heal, and comfort, all springs from the image of our Creator. Quote Like pain. I believe there is not such a thing like an objective and universal pain that goes beyond our biology. Nevertheless, it hurts. There is a lot about humans that is the same and goes beyond our biology. Human beings general want to be in relationship, in community with others. They want to belong to a family, and it isn't something you can write off as biological. It is far, far more than that. People want to be loved on a level that is far deeper than anything biology can address. There is a longing to be needed, to be wanted. The love that a mother has for her child is not something that is as shallow as instinct, but will drive her love her children more than she loves herself or anyone else. And the pain of losing a child is a pain that all mothers (in their right mind) feel and it goes way beyond biology. Quote And about the pizza. How did I feel in the mood for pizza? Suppose it is not pre-determined. Where does it come from? Is it a random fluctuation in my brain states that is not reducible to any prior event? So what? Am I still accountable for breaking my diet because the event was random instead of being predetermined? And if it is neither determined nor random, what is it? Something that begins to exist without any explanation at all? siegi Nothing is pre-determined. You are as free to decide to eat pizza as you are free to break your diet. That is up to you. If everything is pre-determined, then nothing is right or wrong. Can someone steal your wallet on the grounds that it was predetermined and he had no choice but to do so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siegi91 Posted September 2, 2018 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 12 Topic Count: 35 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,802 Content Per Day: 1.19 Reputation: 249 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/04/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted September 2, 2018 (edited) 23 hours ago, shiloh357 said: As an atheist, you have no right to even question what is right and wrong or wonder about self-evident truth like freedom, equality, liberty. If we are just molecules and chemicals, if we are just higher animals, then none of that should matter to us anymore than to a cocker spaniel. But that fact that we do, demonstrates that we are more than higher animals. There is far more to humanity than atheists think. Those are not biological responses. That such injustice upsets you is evidence that you are made in God's image. Humanity reflects the image of the Creator in that we want to build, invent fashion/form, discover, etc. The fact that we seek fairness, justice, the fact that we create medicines to heal, and comfort, all springs from the image of our Creator. There is a lot about humans that is the same and goes beyond our biology. Human beings general want to be in relationship, in community with others. They want to belong to a family, and it isn't something you can write off as biological. It is far, far more than that. People want to be loved on a level that is far deeper than anything biology can address. There is a longing to be needed, to be wanted. The love that a mother has for her child is not something that is as shallow as instinct, but will drive her love her children more than she loves herself or anyone else. And the pain of losing a child is a pain that all mothers (in their right mind) feel and it goes way beyond biology. Nothing is pre-determined. You are as free to decide to eat pizza as you are free to break your diet. That is up to you. If everything is pre-determined, then nothing is right or wrong. Can someone steal your wallet on the grounds that it was predetermined and he had no choice but to do so? Well, what you say conflicts with the most basic physical theories. For the deterministic and reversible nature of physical laws is one of the most fundamental ones we know. However, since you believe the Universe is a few thousands years old, then I am not sure how to start debating issues at this level with you. It would be like discussing about differential topology with someone who ignores basic trigonometry. siegi Edited September 2, 2018 by siegi91 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 3 minutes ago, siegi91 said: Well, what you say conflicts with the most basic physical theories. No, it conflicts with what you want to be true. I speak to a reality that goes waaaaay beyond physical theories. There are parts of the human experience that do not comport with physical theories. Quote For the deterministic and reversible nature of physical laws is one of the more fundamental ones we know. However, since you believe the Universe is a few thousands years old, then I am not sure how to start debating issues at this level with you. It would be like discussing about differential topology with someone who ignores basic trigonometry. This is nothing to do with how old the universe is. It has to do with the fact that you don't want to be accountable for right and wrong and so making everything deterministic means you are exempt from being accountable for the actions you choose to engage in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siegi91 Posted September 2, 2018 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 12 Topic Count: 35 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,802 Content Per Day: 1.19 Reputation: 249 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/04/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted September 2, 2018 (edited) 10 minutes ago, shiloh357 said: No, it conflicts with what you want to be true. I speak to a reality that goes waaaaay beyond physical theories. There are parts of the human experience that do not comport with physical theories. This is nothing to do with how old the universe is. It has to do with the fact that you don't want to be accountable for right and wrong and so making everything deterministic means you are exempt from being accountable for the actions you choose to engage in. Everything is subject to physics. Unless you beg the question, by assuming extra physical agencies. See how easy it is to affect human behavior by ingesting a few shots of very physical Vodka. Or see how easy it is to become a completely different person when the brain is eaten up by physically induced things like dementia. I think that is plenty of evidence for the physical nature of all our perceptions, feelings, fears, love, memories, etc. We are what our brain computes. Nothing more, nothing less. siegi Edited September 2, 2018 by siegi91 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 7 minutes ago, siegi91 said: Everything is subject to physics. Unless you beg the question, by assuming extra physical agencies. There are lots of things physics can't explain. Quote See how easy it is to affect human behavior by ingesting a few shots of very physical Vodka. Or see how easy it is to become a completely different person when the brain is eaten up by physically induced things like dementia. Again, that is not germain to what we are talking abuot. Quote I think that is plenty of evidence for the physical nature of all our perceptions, feelings, fears, love, memories, etc. We are what our brain computes. Nothing more, nothing less. siegi No, you're wrong. There is a realm of human existence, even in this world, that science simply can't address. I realize you don't want to live in reality, but you need to join the rest of us in the real world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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