Genesis 6:3

[enoob57]

Just now, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, enoob57.

Well, if that story works for you, then fine for you. But, you're doing it again with Ezekiel 28 now, instead of Isaiah 14. LOOK AT THE WHOLE CHAPTER!

Ezekiel 28:1-9 (KJV)

1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
2 "Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus (TYRE), 'Thus saith the Lord GOD; <<Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, "I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas"; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God: 3 Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee: 4 With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures: 5 By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches:>>
6 'Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; <<Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; 7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. 8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas. 9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, "I am God"? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee....>>'"

Again, I warn you, DON'T SWALLOW THE "BLUE PILL" OF THEOLOGY! Stick to the Word of God, even when it seems that you are taking the "red pill!"

clearly it starts out to this king but then goes to satan whom this king is following after... Jesus did the same thing with religious rulers here

John 8:39-44

39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
KJV
 

 

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, enoob57 said:

clearly it starts out to this king but then goes to satan whom this king is following after... Jesus did the same thing with religious rulers here

John 8:39-44

39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
KJV

Shalom, enoob57.

Well, again, believe what you want to believe. But, there's no change in direction within the conversation in either Isaiah 14 or Ezekiel 28. And, Yeshua` was also not moving on to haSatan the devil (diabolos, the one who "throws through" one's reputation).

Above, Yeshua` is ALWAYS talking about the religious leaders to whom He was talking. They called themselves "the sons of Avraham"; He told them they were not "the sons of Avraham," because Avraham didn't act the way they did. They called themselves "the sons of God"; He told them they were not "the sons of God" because they didn't love the Son of God and sought to kill Him! Then, He called them "the sons of the devil" because they did the lusts of their father, who was a murderer and a liar.

In the companion version of Matthew 23, He said to them,

Matthew 23:29-36 (KJV)

29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, 30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. 31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. 32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation (condemnation) of hell (Greek: ge-ennees = Hebrew: gei-[ben]-Hinnowm = "Valley of [the son of] Hinnowm," within which the Judgment Seat of the Messiah shall be set)?

34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: 
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

He egged them on to kill Him, daring them to "fill up the measure of their fathers," who also were murderers!

That's not the same as Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28, as you interpret them. You're saying that these prophecies start out about these human rulers and then SWITCH to the angelic being, "Lucifer" or "Satan." However, such a switch is not even IMPLIED within these chapters!

[Retrobyter]

On 7/21/2018 at 12:54 PM, Christine said:

Hello @Jayne,

The fallen angels  (sons of God) are introduced in verse two, in 6:3 fallen Adam is referred and the years remaining to him. The total being 930 those referred to are the last 12o. There is nothing in 6:3 to intimate that it refers to the years remaining before God's judgment would fall.

My reason for introducing this thread was the grammatical evidence in the original language as to why 6:3 should be seen to be referring to 'the man Adam',  these weigh far more with me as evidence than anything else put forward.  So, I will stand by it.

However, I thank you, and everyone else who has taken part, for the entries you have made.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

Shalom, Christine.

Don't be duped into thinking that "sons of God" refers to "fallen angels." That is NOT a valid assumption, despite the good men, even good preachers, who adhere to this belief. That fanciful fiction stems from the Book of Enoch which is a FICTIONAL book produced in the intertestamental period - the 400 years or so between Malachi and the Gospels. While it CLAIMS to be written by a man named Enoch (Hebrew: Chanowkh), it cannot be the same Chanowkh who is called "the seventh from Adam."

The TRADITIONAL viewpoint of Genesis 6 is that these "sons of God" were the children of Sheeyt ("Seth") while the "daughters of men" refer to the "daughters of Qayin ("Cain").

There have been traditionally three views held (mine makes a fourth) on this Genesis 6:1-4 passage:

According to the PC Study Bible software, of six Bible commentaries--Wycliffe Bible Commentary; Keil and Delitzsch Commentary on the Old Testament; Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary; Adam Clarke's Commentary; Barnes' Notes; and Matthew Henry's Commentary--here are the viewpoints:

The traditional view is that the sons of God were princes or nobility who selected from the beautiful women of lower class to increase their harems. The list of those who believe the traditional view of the orthodox rabbinical Judaism are, of course, the orthodox rabbinical Jews, the authors of the Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary, and Dr. Wall.

A second, very popular view is that the sons of God were the godly line of Seth--not that the line of Seth was entirely godly or that the line of Cain was entirely ungodly. The key word here is "godly;" members of Cain's line that were righteous may have been included in that group, while some of Seth's progeny might not have been included. The list of those who believe this view is long! A few of the members of this list are Chrysostom, Augustine, Luther, Calvin, Hengstenberg, Faber, Keil, Matthew Henry's Commentary, Barnes' Notes, and Adam Clarke's Commentary.

The third and youngest of the three views is that the sons of God were angels. This list includes (according to Josephus) Justin, Athenagoras, Clemens Alexandrinus, Tertullian, Lactantius, and more recently Rosenmuller, Gesenius, Kurtz, Tuch, Knobel, Delitzsch, Govett, and Maitland. Even more recently, I've heard Dr. Tony Evans, a preacher I admire and respect, has also promoted the position.

I would like to present a fourth possiblity: Genesis chapter 4 records the first murder. Qayin slew his own brother out of envy and bitterness that he allowed to grow in his heart despite being warned of God to let it go. When God confronts Qayin about his sin, Qayin lies and God replies, "What hast thou done?! The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the GROUND! And now art thou cursed FROM THE EARTH, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand; when thou tillest the GROUND, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a FUGITIVE and a VAGABOND shalt thou be IN THE EARTH!" Qayin replied, "My punishment is greater than I can bear (greater than I deserve). Behold, Thou hast driven me out this day FROM THE FACE (SURFACE) OF THE EARTH; and FROM THY FACE SHALL I BE HID; and I shall be a FUGITIVE and a VAGABOND IN THE EARTH; and it shall come to pass, that every one that FINDETH me shall slay me." The LORD in His pity for Qayin then said, "Therefore whosoever slayeth Qayin, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold." And the LORD set a mark upon Qayin, lest any FINDING him should kill him.

Qayin then went out FROM THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nowd ("wandering"), on the east of Eden.

Then, Qayin and his wife had a son and called his name Chanokh (or Enoch). Then, Qayin built a city and called the name of that city "Chanokh" after his son. Then, we are told of six more generations that his son produced. What if this city is not on the surface of the earth? What if Nowd, a place of Wandering, was a cavern system?

We are next told of an interesting story, the first recorded incident of killing in self-defense:

16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.
17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.
18 And unto Enoch was born Irad: and Irad begat Mehujael: and Mehujael begat Methusael: and Methusael begat Lamech.
19 And Lamech took unto him two wives: the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah.
20 And Adah bare Jabal: he was the father of such as dwell in tents, and of such as have cattle.
21 And his brother's name was Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ.
22 And Zillah, she also bare Tubal-cain, an instructer of every artificer in brass and iron: and the sister of Tubal-cain was Naamah.
23 And Lamech said unto his wives, Adah and Zillah, Hear my voice; ye wives of Lamech, hearken unto my speech: for I have slain a man to my wounding, and a young man to my hurt.
24 If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold.

The problem is that GOD never intervened for Lamekh (Lamech) as He did for Qayin. I believe that he and his family were driven out of Chanokh and out of the cavern system at this time or they fled for their lives. In either case, they were forced out into the full sunlight which they had never had to deal with in the past. We read that Yaval (Jabal) was "the father of such as dwell in tents" and that his half-brother, Tuval-Qayin (Tubal-Cain), was "an instructer of every artificer in brass and iron." Why did they live in tents? After years without the sun, their skin was quite blanched and susceptible to sunburns. Where did Tuval-Qayin get his knowledge of brass and iron? In Chanokh within the caverns, he had learned to work metals, even in alloys since brass is an alloy.

Now, I don't deny that this is conjecture, but if you will bear with me, I think you will find that there is merit to this idea, and that it fits many facts.

Meanwhile, on the surface--in the light of the sun, under the blue skies (heavens), and under the face of God--Adam has another son and named him "Sheeyt” (“Seth,” whose name means “established; a foundation”) as a substitute for Hevel (Abel, whose name means “a waste”):

25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.
26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.

Now, I've heard some preachers say that this was when people began to pray; however, Adam was already familiar with speaking to God. A few preachers will even suggest that this was when people started to "get saved." But that is not what this verse is talking about. Looking carefully at the Hebrew words, one may discover that this was when people started to use the name of the LORD as a talisman or a good-luck charm! They began to tack his name onto their own to ward off evil, and they became prideful that they were allowed to be in the LORD'S presence.

Looking again carefully at the passage in Genesis 6,

1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face (SURFACE) of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2 That the sons of God (a term applied to themselves as a term of prejudice) saw the daughters of men that they were fair (Hebrew: “Tovot” meaning "good"); and they took (Hebrew: “vayiqchuw” meaning “and they forcefully captured”) them wives of all which they chose (Hebrew: “baachaaruw” meaning “they-tried; they-selected; they-desired”).
3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
4 There were giants (Hebrew: “n'falim” meaning "fellers" of wood, "tyrants," or “bullies”) in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men (Hebrew: “g'Vorim" meaning "champions" [like Goliath] or "heroes") which were of old, men of renown (famous or popular men).
5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Now we can see what so enraged the LORD! He hated the tyranny, the slavery ("white" slavery, if you'll forgive the pun), and injustice to fellow human beings, but when you compound that with the fact that the rest of the population made them out to be heroes and champions and to make them popular as well, this was the last straw!

Now, granted this has been conjecture, but one may notice that it does fit the facts and gives a plausible explanation as to how these "sons of God" could be the progeny of Shet (Seth).

May I suggest that "sons of God" need NEVER apply to "angels?" Have you ever considered the possibility that the sons of God mentioned in `Iyov (Job) need not be "angels?" Let's look at the evidence:

Job 1:5-12 (KJV)

5 And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

So, why would angels need to "present themselves before the LORD (the tetragramaton Y-H-W(V)-H, Yahweh or Yahooh, Jehovah; ADONAI)"? Frankly, if they were created as sinless creatures, and did not fall with Satan in his rebellion (as the belief goes), then why would they need to "present themselves"? On the other hand, assume for a moment that these "sons of God" were human beings. NOW why would they need to "present themselves"? The answer is in verse 5! They would need to present themselves for the same reasons that `Iyov presented himself and his children before the LORD; to offer sacrifices to God and receive atonement for their sins from God through this picture of what was to come in the sacrifice of the Lamb of God.

The assumption is, and has been, that Satan came in among the sons of God because he was of the same type of creature and was able to slip in with them. However, that conclusion is unfounded by anything said in the text. Instead, we may also consider that the presence of the LORD will be where He can be in fellowship with His creation, human beings, through the atonement. Satan, knowing that God would gladly receive sacrifices, came before Him at the altar! Did you know that the word for "angel" is in Job 1? It's the Aramaic word "mal'akh" translated "messenger" in verse 14! Do we assume this was an "angel?" No! We consider this to be a human person. As a matter of fact, because of verse 15, we consider him to be a servant, one of `Iyov's workers who took care of the oxen and the donkeys!

14 And there came a messenger (Hebrew: mal’akh) unto Job, and said, The oxen were plowing, and the asses feeding beside them:
15 And the Sabeans fell upon them, and took them away; yea, they have slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

Now, why didn't the author of `Iyov use this word instead of "sons of God"? Could it be because these "sons of God" weren't "angels?"

I will even be so bold as to say that NOWHERE in Scripture MUST the term "sons of God" refer to "angels!" As a matter of fact, I believe that "sons of God" referring to "human beings," truthfully or deceptively, makes much better sense!

[Christine]

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Christine.

Don't be duped into thinking that "sons of God" refers to "fallen angels." That is NOT a valid assumption, despite the good men, even good preachers, who adhere to this belief. That fanciful fiction stems from the Book of Enoch which is a FICTIONAL book produced in the intertestamental period - the 400 years or so between Malachi and the Gospels. While it CLAIMS to be written by a man named Enoch (Hebrew: Chanowkh), it cannot be the same Chanowkh who is called "the seventh from Adam."

The TRADITIONAL viewpoint of Genesis 6 is that these "sons of God" were the children of Sheeyt ("Seth") while the "daughters of men" refer to the "daughters of Qayin ("Cain").

There have been traditionally three views held (mine makes a fourth) on this Genesis 6:1-4 passage:

According to the PC Study Bible software, of six Bible commentaries--Wycliffe Bible Commentary; Keil and Delitzsch Commentary on the Old Testament; Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary; Adam Clarke's Commentary; Barnes' Notes; and Matthew Henry's Commentary--here are the viewpoints:

The traditional view is that the sons of God were princes or nobility who selected from the beautiful women of lower class to increase their harems. The list of those who believe the traditional view of the orthodox rabbinical Judaism are, of course, the orthodox rabbinical Jews, the authors of the Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary, and Dr. Wall.

A second, very popular view is that the sons of God were the godly line of Seth--not that the line of Seth was entirely godly or that the line of Cain was entirely ungodly. The key word here is "godly;" members of Cain's line that were righteous may have been included in that group, while some of Seth's progeny might not have been included. The list of those who believe this view is long! A few of the members of this list are Chrysostom, Augustine, Luther, Calvin, Hengstenberg, Faber, Keil, Matthew Henry's Commentary, Barnes' Notes, and Adam Clarke's Commentary.

The third and youngest of the three views is that the sons of God were angels. This list includes (according to Josephus) Justin, Athenagoras, Clemens Alexandrinus, Tertullian, Lactantius, and more recently Rosenmuller, Gesenius, Kurtz, Tuch, Knobel, Delitzsch, Govett, and Maitland. Even more recently, I've heard Dr. Tony Evans, a preacher I admire and respect, has also promoted the position.

I would like to present a fourth possiblity: Genesis chapter 4 records the first murder. Qayin slew his own brother out of envy and bitterness that he allowed to grow in his heart despite being warned of God to let it go. When God confronts Qayin about his sin, Qayin lies and God replies, "What hast thou done?! The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the GROUND! And now art thou cursed FROM THE EARTH, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand; when thou tillest the GROUND, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a FUGITIVE and a VAGABOND shalt thou be IN THE EARTH!" Qayin replied, "My punishment is greater than I can bear (greater than I deserve). Behold, Thou hast driven me out this day FROM THE FACE (SURFACE) OF THE EARTH; and FROM THY FACE SHALL I BE HID; and I shall be a FUGITIVE and a VAGABOND IN THE EARTH; and it shall come to pass, that every one that FINDETH me shall slay me." The LORD in His pity for Qayin then said, "Therefore whosoever slayeth Qayin, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold." And the LORD set a mark upon Qayin, lest any FINDING him should kill him.

Qayin then went out FROM THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nowd ("wandering"), on the east of Eden.

Then, Qayin and his wife had a son and called his name Chanokh (or Enoch). Then, Qayin built a city and called the name of that city "Chanokh" after his son. Then, we are told of six more generations that his son produced. What if this city is not on the surface of the earth? What if Nowd, a place of Wandering, was a cavern system?

We are next told of an interesting story, the first recorded incident of killing in self-defense:

16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.
17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.
18 And unto Enoch was born Irad: and Irad begat Mehujael: and Mehujael begat Methusael: and Methusael begat Lamech.
19 And Lamech took unto him two wives: the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah.
20 And Adah bare Jabal: he was the father of such as dwell in tents, and of such as have cattle.
21 And his brother's name was Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ.
22 And Zillah, she also bare Tubal-cain, an instructer of every artificer in brass and iron: and the sister of Tubal-cain was Naamah.
23 And Lamech said unto his wives, Adah and Zillah, Hear my voice; ye wives of Lamech, hearken unto my speech: for I have slain a man to my wounding, and a young man to my hurt.
24 If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold.

The problem is that GOD never intervened for Lamekh (Lamech) as He did for Qayin. I believe that he and his family were driven out of Chanokh and out of the cavern system at this time or they fled for their lives. In either case, they were forced out into the full sunlight which they had never had to deal with in the past. We read that Yaval (Jabal) was "the father of such as dwell in tents" and that his half-brother, Tuval-Qayin (Tubal-Cain), was "an instructer of every artificer in brass and iron." Why did they live in tents? After years without the sun, their skin was quite blanched and susceptible to sunburns. Where did Tuval-Qayin get his knowledge of brass and iron? In Chanokh within the caverns, he had learned to work metals, even in alloys since brass is an alloy.

, but if you will bear with me, I think you will find that there is merit to this idea, and that it fits many facts.

Meanwhile, on the surface--in the light of the sun, under the blue skies (heavens), and under the face of God--Adam has another son and named him "Sheeyt” (“Seth,” whose name means “established; a foundation”) as a substitute for Hevel (Abel, whose name means “a waste”):

25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.
26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.

Now, I've heard some preachers say that this was when people began to pray; however, Adam was already familiar with speaking to God. A few preachers will even suggest that this was when people started to "get saved." But that is not what this verse is talking about. Looking carefully at the Hebrew words, one may discover that this was when people started to use the name of the LORD as a talisman or a good-luck charm! They began to tack his name onto their own to ward off evil, and they became prideful that they were allowed to be in the LORD'S presence.

Looking again carefully at the passage in Genesis 6,

1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face (SURFACE) of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2 That the sons of God (a term applied to themselves as a term of prejudice) saw the daughters of men that they were fair (Hebrew: “Tovot” meaning "good"); and they took (Hebrew: “vayiqchuw” meaning “and they forcefully captured”) them wives of all which they chose (Hebrew: “baachaaruw” meaning “they-tried; they-selected; they-desired”).
3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
4 There were giants (Hebrew: “n'falim” meaning "fellers" of wood, "tyrants," or “bullies”) in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men (Hebrew: “g'Vorim" meaning "champions" [like Goliath] or "heroes") which were of old, men of renown (famous or popular men).
5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Now we can see what so enraged the LORD! He hated the tyranny, the slavery ("white" slavery, if you'll forgive the pun), and injustice to fellow human beings, but when you compound that with the fact that the rest of the population made them out to be heroes and champions and to make them popular as well, this was the last straw!

, but one may notice that it does fit the facts and gives a plausible explanation as to how these "sons of God" could be the progeny of Shet (Seth).

May I suggest that "sons of God" need NEVER apply to "angels?" Have you ever considered the possibility that the sons of God mentioned in `Iyov (Job) need not be "angels?" Let's look at the evidence:

Job 1:5-12 (KJV)

5 And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

So, why would angels need to "present themselves before the LORD (the tetragramaton Y-H-W(V)-H, Yahweh or Yahooh, Jehovah; ADONAI)"? Frankly, if they were created as sinless creatures, and did not fall with Satan in his rebellion (as the belief goes), then why would they need to "present themselves"? On the other hand, assume for a moment that these "sons of God" were human beings. NOW why would they need to "present themselves"? The answer is in verse 5! They would need to present themselves for the same reasons that `Iyov presented himself and his children before the LORD; to offer sacrifices to God and receive atonement for their sins from God through this picture of what was to come in the sacrifice of the Lamb of God.

The assumption is, and has been, that Satan came in among the sons of God because he was of the same type of creature and was able to slip in with them. However, that conclusion is unfounded by anything said in the text. Instead, we may also consider that the presence of the LORD will be where He can be in fellowship with His creation, human beings, through the atonement. Satan, knowing that God would gladly receive sacrifices, came before Him at the altar! Did you know that the word for "angel" is in Job 1? It's the Aramaic word "mal'akh" translated "messenger" in verse 14! Do we assume this was an "angel?" No! We consider this to be a human person. As a matter of fact, because of verse 15, we consider him to be a servant, one of `Iyov's workers who took care of the oxen and the donkeys!

14 And there came a messenger (Hebrew: mal’akh) unto Job, and said, The oxen were plowing, and the asses feeding beside them:
15 And the Sabeans fell upon them, and took them away; yea, they have slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

Now, why didn't the author of `Iyov use this word instead of "sons of God"? Could it be because these "sons of God" weren't "angels?"

I will even be so bold as to say that NOWHERE in Scripture MUST the term "sons of God" refer to "angels!" As a matter of fact, I believe that "sons of God" referring to "human beings," truthfully or deceptively, makes much better sense!

Dear Retrobyter,

I thank you for sharing the result of your investigation into this subject, and your thoughts regarding the examples you have given of the thoughts of learned men who have recorded their respective conclusions.  Also for your honest declaration concerning them:- 'Now, I don't deny that this is conjecture' & 'Now, granted this has been conjecture'. 

However, I dare not, like you, venture into areas of conjecture.  I can only go by what is written for our learning in the Word of God, compare Scripture with Scripture by following through the usage of such words as 'sons of God' by the Holy Spirit elsewhere in the written record we have. I dare not 'trust the sweetest frame' but wholly cleave to Jesus Name.

 Praise God - that His Word has one great purpose, to make known God's redemptive purpose and the person and work of His Beloved Son through whom that redemption is secured.  My knowledge is like a grain of sand upon the ocean floor, but I praise God that it is sufficient to save me by God's grace.  

I would like to respond further to particular points raised in your post, Retrobyter, but unfortunately, at the moment, I am finding the brightness of the screen is making me feel ill.

With love in Christ Jesus

Chris

[enoob57]

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Your Shalom, enoob57.

Well, again, believe what you want to believe. But, there's no change in direction within the conversation in either Isaiah 14 or Ezekiel 28. And, Yeshua` was also not moving on to haSatan the devil (diabolos, the one who "throws through" one's reputation).

Above, Yeshua` is ALWAYS talking about the religious leaders to whom He was talking. They called themselves "the sons of Avraham"; He told them they were not "the sons of Avraham," because Avraham didn't act the way they did. They called themselves "the sons of God"; He told them they were not "the sons of God" because they didn't love the Son of God and sought to kill Him! Then, He called them "the sons of the devil" because they did the lusts of their father, who was a murderer and a liar.

In the companion version of Matthew 23, He said to them,

Matthew 23:29-36 (KJV)

29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, 30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. 31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. 32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation (condemnation) of hell (Greek: ge-ennees = Hebrew: gei-[ben]-Hinnowm = "Valley of [the son of] Hinnowm," within which the Judgment Seat of the Messiah shall be set)?

34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: 
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

He egged them on to kill Him, daring them to "fill up the measure of their fathers," who also were murderers!

That's not the same as Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28, as you interpret them. You're saying that these prophecies start out about these human rulers and then SWITCH to the angelic being, "Lucifer" or "Satan." However, such a switch is not even IMPLIED within these chapters!

Your not objectively processing the content in hermeneutical form and certainly not contextualizing the content of what could not be true of the king spoken of... the king of Tyre could not have been in the garden, could not of been the covering Cherub, etc and so forth... let the objective format of the written material form your thinking instead of you forming it... Let the Bibel speak for itself...

[Retrobyter]

9 hours ago, enoob57 said:

clearly it starts out to this king but then goes to satan whom this king is following after... Jesus did the same thing with religious rulers here

John 8:39-44

39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
KJV

 

2 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

Your not objectively processing the content in hermeneutical form and certainly not contextualizing the content of what could not be true of the king spoken of... the king of Tyre could not have been in the garden, could not of been the covering Cherub, etc and so forth... let the objective format of the written material form your thinking instead of you forming it... Let the Bibel speak for itself...

Shalom, enoob57.

Well, again, believe what you want to believe. However, you should investigate the wording in all the passages that you feel refer to angelic beings. I DO let the Bible speak for itself. There's no doubt that there are the 4 beasts, described in Ezekiel and in Revelation, but be sure you know what a keruv is and what a seraf is. They were NOT primarily in some "spiritual realm." Both Yechezk'el and Yochannan were seeing these animal-like beings and described them from their points of view.

There are investigative methods that can give you the information you seek.

So, to call a person a "keruv" doesn't make that person an "angel." And, as far as being in the "garden of God," we don't even know where the Gan-`Eeden (Garden of Eden) IS today! So, how do we even KNOW that a human being couldn't have gone there thousands of years ago? Yechezk'el said he was there, but still said that he would die the death of a human being! After all, the garden didn't have to be guarded anymore, if the Tree of Life was moved! And, we now read that the Tree won't be seen again until after the New Jerusalem has landed. At least, that's how it was for Yochannan (John). For paradeisos - from the Hebrew word pardeec, meaning the park, garden, or orchard - is also said to be within the New Jerusalem (Rev. 2:7). It exists on either side of the River of the Water of Life in the median of the golden street (Rev. 22:1-2)! For the Gan-Eden and paradeisos both describe ORCHARDS - PARKS OF TREES! 

The seraf, plural s'rafiym, is known to be a flying serpent-like creature, what we might call today a dragon. It had 6 wings with hands and feet, according to Yesha`yahu (Isaiah). It's name means a "burning one," which probably refers to the poison that it carries. I tend to think this is no ordinary serpent, but is of the viper or adder family with a triangular head and fangs. This Hebrew word was used for those snakes that attacked the children of Israel for whom Moses put the brass likeness of one upon a pole (Numbers 21:6). The word is also used in Isaiah 6:2, 6; 14:29, and 30:6.

Isaiah 6:1-6 (KJV)

1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. 2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain (two) he covered his face, and with twain (two) he covered his feet, and with twain (two) he did fly.

3And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, (Hebrew: Qadowsh Qadowsh Qadowsh) is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

4And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.

5Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.

6Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, whichhe had taken with the tongs from off the altar: 7And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.

 

The keruV, plural k'ruViym, can likewise be known, but it requires a little more work. First, you have Yechezk'el's description in Ezekiel 1:

Ezekiel 1:1-11 (KJV)

1 Now it came to pass in the thirtieth year, in the fourth month, in the fifth day of the month, as I was among the captives by the river of Chebar, that the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God. 2 In the fifth day of the month, which was the fifth year of king Jehoiachin's captivity, 3 The word of the LORD came expressly unto Ezekiel the priest, the son of Buzi, in the land of the Chaldeans by the river Chebar; and the hand of the LORD was there upon him.

4 And I looked, and, behold, a whirlwind came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness was about it, and out of the midst thereof as the colour of amber, out of the midst of the fire. 
5 Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man. 6 And every one had four faces, and every one had four wings. 
7 And their feet were straight feet; and the sole of their feet was like the sole of a calf's foot: and they sparkled like the colour of burnished brass. 8 And they had the hands of a man under their wings on their four sides; and they four had their faces and their wings. 9 Their wings were joined one to another; they turned not when they went; they went every one straight forward. 
10 As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle. 11 Thus were their faces: and their wings were stretched upward; two wings of every one were joined one to another, and two covered their bodies.

Later, we learn that THESE were k'ruviym:

Ezekiel 10:1-22 (KJV)

1 Then I looked, and, behold, in the firmament that was above the head of the cherubims there appeared over them as it were a sapphire stone, as the appearance of the likeness of a throne. 2 And he spake unto the man clothed with linen, and said, Go in between the wheels, even under the cherub (Hebrew: keruv), and fill thine hand with coals of fire from between the cherubims, and scatter them over the city. And he went in in my sight.

3 Now the cherubims (Hebrew: k'ruViym) stood on the right side of the house, when the man went in; and the cloud filled the inner court. 4 Then the glory of the LORD went up from the cherub, and stood over the threshold of the house; and the house was filled with the cloud, and the court was full of the brightness of the LORD'S glory. 5 And the sound of the cherubims' wings was heard even to the outer court, as the voice of the Almighty God when he speaketh.

6 And it came to pass, that when he had commanded the man clothed with linen, saying, Take fire from between the wheels, from between the cherubims; then he went in, and stood beside the wheels. 7 And one cherub stretched forth his hand from between the cherubims unto the fire that was between the cherubims, and took thereof, and put it into the hands of him that was clothed with linen: who took it, and went out. 
8 And there appeared in the cherubims the form of a man's hand under their wings.

9 And when I looked, behold the four wheels by the cherubims, one wheel by one cherub, and another wheel by another cherub: and the appearance of the wheels was as the colour of a beryl stone. 10 And as for their appearances, they four had one likeness, as if a wheel had been in the midst of a wheel. 11 When they went, they went upon their four sides; they turned not as they went, but to the place whither the head looked they followed it; they turned not as they went. 12 And their whole body, and their backs, and their hands, and their wings, and the wheels, were full of eyes (Hebrew: `eeynayim = dual of `ayin = "sets of eyes") round about, even the wheels that they four had.  13 As for the wheels, it was cried unto them in my hearing, O wheel. 14 And every one had four faces: the first face was the face of a cherub (Hebrew: keruV), and the second face was the face of a man, and the third the face of a lion, and the fourth the face of an eagle.

15 And the cherubims were lifted up. This is the living creature that I saw by the river of Chebar. 
16 And when the cherubims went, the wheels went by them: and when the cherubims lifted up their wings to mount up from the earth, the same wheels also turned not from beside them. 17 When they stood, these stood; and when they were lifted up, these lifted up themselves also: for the spirit of the living creature was in them.

18 Then the glory of the LORD departed from off the threshold of the house, and stood over the cherubims. 19 And the cherubims lifted up their wings, and mounted up from the earth in my sight: when they went out, the wheels also were beside them, and every one stood at the door of the east gate of the LORD'S house; and the glory of the God of Israel was over them above.

20 This is the living creature that I saw under the God of Israel by the river of Chebar; and I knew that they were the cherubims. 21 Every one had four faces apiece, and every one four wings; and the likeness of the hands of a man was under their wings. 22 And the likeness of their faces was the same faces which I saw by the river of Chebar, their appearances and themselves: they went every one straight forward.

Equating the four faces, we have....

man = man
lion = lion
ox = keruv
eagle = eagle

The Hebrew word for "ox" in Ezekiel 1:10 is "showr." 

7794 showr (shore). From shuwr; a bullock (as a traveller) -- bull(-ock), cow, ox, wall (by mistake for shuwr).

So, a keruv is an ox or bull that stands upright like a man with straight feet, but with soft pads upon the soles of its feet. It has four wings with human hands beneath the wings, and it has these four faces, one of which is that of an ox or bull.

[Retrobyter]

2 hours ago, Christine said:

Dear Retrobyter,

I thank you for sharing the result of your investigation into this subject, and your thoughts regarding the examples you have given of the thoughts of learned men who have recorded their respective conclusions.  Also for your honest declaration concerning them:- 'Now, I don't deny that this is conjecture' & 'Now, granted this has been conjecture'. 

However, I dare not, like you, venture into areas of conjecture.  I can only go by what is written for our learning in the Word of God, compare Scripture with Scripture by following through the usage of such words as 'sons of God' by the Holy Spirit elsewhere in the written record we have. I dare not 'trust the sweetest frame' but wholly cleave to Jesus Name.

 Praise God - that His Word has one great purpose, to make known God's redemptive purpose and the person and work of His Beloved Son through whom that redemption is secured.  My knowledge is like a grain of sand upon the ocean floor, but I praise God that it is sufficient to save me by God's grace.  

I would like to respond further to particular points raised in your post, Retrobyter, but unfortunately, at the moment, I am finding the brightness of the screen is making me feel ill.

With love in Christ Jesus

Chris

Shalom, Chris.

I only delve into speculation WITHIN the constraints of Scripture. You will find in my conjecture above that it all fits with the Scriptures, as far back as Genesis 2, for we must begin with the description of Adam's and Chavah's environment.

You also must take into consideration a vivid, literal interpretation of the Hebrew of these chapters, and for me, there's no other way to do it.

Just think about it for a while when you have time to ponder on this and investigate what you find.

[Christine]

'That the sons of God 
.. saw the daughters of men 
.... that they were fair; 
...... and they took them wives of all which they chose.
And the LORD said, 
My spirit shall not always strive with man,
 for that he also is flesh: 
yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
.. There were giants in the earth in those days; 
.... and also after that,
...... when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, 
........ and they bare children to them, 
.......... the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.'
(Gen 6:2-4)  

Hello again,

Thinking along the line of thought that @Retrobyter has opened up, regarding the beings spoken of as 'Sons of God' in Genesis 6:2&4, I think about the term which time after time during the record of creation the Holy Spirit uses, 'after his kind'.  Each species of plant, animal and fowl produce fruit or offspring, 'after their kind'.  That was God's order of things.

In Genesis 6:2&4, that order is broken, when the beings referred to as, 'Sons of God', leave the order of their kind, and take as wives those who are clearly differentiated as, 'daughters of men'. This differentiation clearly shows each to be a separate species of God's creating.  Each should have operated, 'after their kind', according to God's design: but the 'sons of God', like those they are likened to in Sodom and Gomorrah (Jude 1:6,7), acted contrary to their 'kind'.

'And the angels which kept not their first estate, 
but left their own habitation, 
He hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness 
unto the judgement of the great day.
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them 
in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, 
and going after strange flesh, 
are set forth for an example, 
suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.'
(Jude 1:6-7) 

* We can see, by the use the Holy Spirit makes of the term (within it's context), that, the 'sons of God', were angels, 

Now there was a day 
when the sons of God came 
to present themselves before the LORD, 
and Satan came also among them.'
(Job 1:6)  

'Again there was a day 
when the sons of God came 
to present themselves before the LORD, 
and Satan came also among them 
to present himself before the LORD.'
(Job 2:1)  

When the morning stars sang together, 
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?'
(Job 38:7)  

With love in Christ Jesus
Chris

Edited August 28, 2018 by Christine

[Christine]

Hello @Retrobyter,

Here are two more verses that give evidence to the fact that angels were the subject of Genesis 6.

'For if God spared not the angels that sinned, 
but cast them down to hell, (tartaroo)
and delivered them into chains of darkness, 
to be reserved unto judgement; 
And spared not the old world, 
but saved Noah the eighth person, 
a preacher of righteousness, 
bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;'
(2 Pet. 2:4-5)  

'For Christ also hath once suffered for sins,
 the just for the unjust, 
that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, 
but quickened by the Spirit:
By which also He went and preached (heralded) unto the spirits (angels) in prison;
Which sometime were disobedient, 
when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, 
while the ark was a preparing, 
wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. '
(1 Peter 3:18-21)

In Christ Jesus

Chris

[Retrobyter]

On 8/28/2018 at 6:12 AM, Christine said:

'That the sons of God 
.. saw the daughters of men 
.... that they were fair; 
...... and they took them wives of all which they chose.
And the LORD said, 
My spirit shall not always strive with man,
 for that he also is flesh: 
yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
.. There were giants in the earth in those days; 
.... and also after that,
...... when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, 
........ and they bare children to them, 
.......... the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.'
(Gen 6:2-4)  

Hello again,

Thinking along the line of thought that @Retrobyter has opened up, regarding the beings spoken of as 'Sons of God' in Genesis 6:2&4, I think about the term which time after time during the record of creation the Holy Spirit uses, 'after his kind'.  Each species of plant, animal and fowl produce fruit or offspring, 'after their kind'.  That was God's order of things.

In Genesis 6:2&4, that order is broken, when the beings referred to as, 'Sons of God', leave the order of their kind, and take as wives those who are clearly differentiated as, 'daughters of men'. This differentiation clearly shows each to be a separate species of God's creating.  Each should have operated, 'after their kind', according to God's design: but the 'sons of God', like those they are likened to in Sodom and Gomorrah (Jude 1:6,7), acted contrary to their 'kind'.

'And the angels which kept not their first estate, 
but left their own habitation, 
He hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness 
unto the judgement of the great day.
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them 
in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, 
and going after strange flesh, 
are set forth for an example, 
suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.'
(Jude 1:6-7) 

* We can see, by the use the Holy Spirit makes of the term (within it's context), that, the 'sons of God', were angels, 

Now there was a day 
when the sons of God came 
to present themselves before the LORD, 
and Satan came also among them.'
(Job 1:6)  

'Again there was a day 
when the sons of God came 
to present themselves before the LORD, 
and Satan came also among them 
to present himself before the LORD.'
(Job 2:1)  

When the morning stars sang together, 
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?'
(Job 38:7)  

With love in Christ Jesus
Chris

 

On 8/30/2018 at 4:39 PM, Christine said:

Hello @Retrobyter,

Here are two more verses that give evidence to the fact that angels were the subject of Genesis 6.

'For if God spared not the angels that sinned, 
but cast them down to hell, (tartaroo)
and delivered them into chains of darkness, 
to be reserved unto judgement; 
And spared not the old world, 
but saved Noah the eighth person, 
a preacher of righteousness, 
bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;'
(2 Pet. 2:4-5)  

'For Christ also hath once suffered for sins,
 the just for the unjust, 
that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, 
but quickened by the Spirit:
By which also He went and preached (heralded) unto the spirits (angels) in prison;
Which sometime were disobedient, 
when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, 
while the ark was a preparing, 
wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. '
(1 Peter 3:18-21)

In Christ Jesus

Chris

Shalom, Christine.

Sorry, but again, you're making UNWARRANTED ASSUMPTIONS about spurious passages that people don't bother to take the time to look up in the OT!

However, since you bring it up, if these "sons of God" and "daughters of men" were of "different kinds," how did they "have children by them?!" Different species of created beings can't usually produce offspring!

No, the better explanation is that both groups, "sons of God" and "daughters of men," were simply different groups of human beings. It makes the best sense, and you don't have to go into weird explanations for how "angels" could copulate with women and produce offspring!

Furthermore, it's clear that these "sons of God" were ANYTHING BUT! If you'll pardon the expression, they were more "sons of dogs" than "sons of God!" And, the term "giants" or "n'faliym" is a term that describes an OCCUPATION, not a species or even a lineage of people! They were LUMBERJACKS! And, because they were stronger and physically larger than other people, they took advantage of the situation and did as they chose!

5303 n'filiym (nef-ee-leem') plural of nfiyl or nfil (nef-eel'); from naafal; properly, a feller, i.e. A bully or tyrant
-- giant.

5307 naafal (naw-fal'). A primitive root; to fall, in a great variety of applications (intransitive or causative, literal or figurative)
-- be accepted, cast (down, self, (lots), out), cease, die, divide (by lot), (let) fail, (cause to, let, make, ready to) fall (away, down, -en, -ing), fell(-ing), fugitive, have (inheritance), inferior, be judged (by mistake for palal), lay (along), (cause to) lie down, light (down), be (X hast) lost, lying, overthrow, overwhelm, perish, present(-ed, -ing), (make to) rot, slay, smite out, X surely, throw down.

See, the reason why these people could be back after the Flood in which "only eight were saved" is because this is an occupation, not a race or a nationality! They were wood-cutters, lumberjacks, people who cut down trees and provide lumber for a livelihood! And, like U.S. lumberjacks in the 1800s and bikers in the 1900s, they tended to be proud and competitive and physical. None of those traits are bad in themselves, but they lend themselves to people becoming bullies or tyrants. They are likely to form "gangs," ganging together and ganging up on others.

So, there's just a better explanation for Genesis 6 than the "angel" theory.